We all know one

[lord_raken]

Greetings Netters. Most of you who have been here long enough have taken part in or seen the religious debates that happen here. They are long, show up every couple months, and with only a few exceptions never get anywhere.

I'm probably known as one of those superstitious nut jobs, but I think most of you like me ok (hopes) and I like you guys well enough not to rage at you.

However, today I bring you a a true and developing account of someone whose Religious bigotry and hypocrisy so infuriating that I wish physical harm upon his worthless carcass. I think everyone one will find something to hate about this guy. The Religious ones will grow angry at his hypocrisy and ashamed that such a creature claims to be a "Christian," and the Agnostics and Atheists will have yet another example of why religion can be a bad thing.

Bear in mind, I knew this guy. I went to a Homeschooler Co-op with him for a while. He even gave me a Bullshit religious book (I think I may burn it now). What follows is the start of an exchange where I took exception to a comment he made on FB about Osama Bin'ladin being killed.

What I want from you are: Reactions, suggestions for what to say next, Gifs Pictures or videos that adequately reflect our outrage. Basically, help be Troll and crush him.

Spoiler

Orrin Deaver
So they got Osama... Now if only Americans would see that the enemy in the war on terror is Islam and not some small group of radicals....

Me hehe. And that will prevent escalation how? ANYONE, who has a Muslim friend or works with a Muslim should be able to tell that the religion of Islam is not the problem. I know MANY who are glad Osama's dead, and who feel the tragedy of 9/11 even to this day. Need I remind you that the group you call "American's" includes a sizable population of Muslims? Blaming all of islam for this is like blaming christians today for the Salem witch trials or the Spanish Inquisition even though modern christians have nothing to do either. This was a victory for Islam as well as America. Osama was Islam's monster figure, most Muslims are glad he's gone.

Orrin Deaver Well, no it's completely different because what the world recognizes as Christianity and what Christianity actually is are two completely different things. I everyone had a firm grasp of what true New Testament Christianity is then it would be inescapably clear that true Christianity cannot be blamed for any acts of violence that the world sometimes attatches to it. On the other hand, Islam, by it's very nature, is a religion of violence. When you start reading the Koran that much becomes abundantly clear. Now, there might be a huge percentage of the Muslim population that is much more liberal and does not go by everything the Koran teaches, but those terrorists from 9/11 and other bombings or terrror attacks weren't super radical, they were true Muslims, simply obeying what their religion had taught them.

Me You cannot separate the current view of what Christianity is from the doctrine of the church in the past. While you might not individually be responsible for the atrocity of the Christian church in the past, its still part of the Christinan legacy and you can't dismiss it like it does not matter. Besides, there are plenty to be ashamed of in the Bible: genocide, incest, barbaric laws, hypocrisy, Preemptive invasive wars, slaughtering practicers of other religions. Many of these are supposedly ordered by God himself. You CAN NOT escape this. This is the history of Christianity

More ME All religions are going to have to accept and condemn their more dogmatic and violent pasts if they want to continue to exists and be a force for good in the world. If you are representative of what Christianity will become, then I'd rather see it disappear before it can do any more damage. And that would be a great shame, because it has such potential to help the world.

Orrin Deaver Ok, several misunderstandings here. First of all, as far as what the church has done in the past, not everything that is done in the name of God is automatically right, and so not everything that you consider to be Christian doctrine of the past is actually the doctrine of the Chruch (Matt. 7:13, 14). Also, yes, Islam does claim the same God as the Bible, but once again, not everything done in the name of god is true. 1 Corinthians 14:33 says God is not the author of confusion, therefore God cannot be the head of both of the religions because that would make Him a liar and according to Titus 1:2, God, by nature, cannot lie. Christianity is a religion of peace, and comdemns murder in the name of ideaology (see John 18:36). Now, under the Old Law things were different. It had a much more physical structure than the New Convenant that we are under today, Christianity. Yes, God did have the Israelites invade the lands of the Caananites, but those people were wicked and sinful, and Israel was acting under the command of God Himself.

More Ass-hole Have you read the Old Testament, [Redacted]? God never just went around having people destroy random cities and just slaughtering everybody for no reason. He always had specific reasons for doing what he did.

 

[Krynn72]

I know several of these people unfortunately. I posted something very similar to this in the thread about the Mosque near the WTC site.

 

[lord_raken]

I know several of these people unfortunately. I posted something very similar to this in the thread about the Mosque near the WTC site.

Hopefully I'll get some awesome advice. I'm removing him as a "friend" after this so its not like I have to worry about repercussions.

 

[Krynn72]

Oh, nevermind it wasn't in the mosque thread, though it was about the mosque. Heres one of his posts I put in the thread.

Thankfully, after we argued for a bit, he deleted me off his list and I've been blessedly without his hateful spew.

 

[morgs]

Have you read the Old Testament, [Redacted]? God never just went around having people destroy random cities and just slaughtering everybody for no reason. He always had specific reasons for doing what he did.

Yeeaah like flooding and killing a whole lot of innocent people/animals.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

Some people make me sick to be called American.

 

[lord_raken]

Yeeaah like flooding and killing a whole lot of innocent people/animals.

Actually, the old Testament is very clear on why God flooded the world. That comment I just disagree with, its his hypocritical views and double standards one that really pissed me off.

 

[JUL3]

Being only 17 and still in highschool the most religious trash I get on my FB is from immature kids with (presumably) racist parents.

That guy is a f*ckhead.

 

[Sulkdodds]

This thread has opened my eyes.

x_x
-_-
>_<
o_o
O_O

 

[Shift]

I happen to agree with most of the dudes comments, and I especially agree with the comments of 'Mike'. I think building a place of worship for Islam right next to Ground Zero is absolutely appalling considering 9/11 was the result of Muslim men hijacking and flying two planes into the Twin Towers, each to become a martyr for Allah, and yes the Qur'an most certainly does encourage this. The man they look up to the most stated in Bukhari (52:54) "I would love to be martyred in Allah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred", plenty of encouragement I would say..

The societies we live in, the governments that run them, I think are just too quick to stand up for Islam, and buy into the whole idea that its a religion of peace, and terrorists are just nut cases, when they just need to wake up and actually read the content for themselves and understand that a huge portion of it is based off hate and violence and actually encourages these attacks.

It reminds me of the build up to World War 2, Hitler was busy breaking the treaty of Versailles by rearming his army, marching into the Sudetenland, and then into the rest of Czechoslovakia and then into the Rhineland and all the while Wiston Churchill, not yet prime minister, was pleading to the British government to mobilize and attack Germany while it was still vulnerable but it fell on deaf ears. Its because he was only person in that position of authority that actually properly read Mein Kampf and realized the true nature of Hitler's plans.

 

[Asknoone]

Oh, Shift. Shift.

Some people make me sick to be called American.

Shouldn't most things about your country make you feel that way?

 

[Schru]

I happen to agree with most of the dudes comments, and I especially agree with the comments of 'Mike'. I think building a place of worship for Islam right next to Ground Zero is absolutely appalling considering 9/11 was the result of Muslim men hijacking and flying two planes into the Twin Towers, each to become a martyr for Allah, and yes the Qur'an most certainly does encourage this. The man they look up to the most stated in Bukhari (52:54) "I would love to be martyred in Allah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred", plenty of encouragement I would say..

The societies we live in, the governments that run them, I think are just too quick to stand up for Islam, and buy into the whole idea that its a religion of peace, and terrorists are just nut cases, when they just need to wake up and actually read the content for themselves and understand that a huge portion of it is based off hate and violence and actually encourages these attacks.

It reminds me of the build up to World War 2, Hitler was busy breaking the treaty of Versailles by rearming his army, marching into the Sudetenland, and then into the rest of Czechoslovakia and then into the Rhineland and all the while Wiston Churchill, not yet prime minister, was pleading to the British government to mobilize and attack Germany while it was still vulnerable but it fell on deaf ears. Its because he was only person in that position of authority that actually properly read Mein Kampf and realized the true nature of Hitler's plans.

I think that such extensive contact, particularly when it causes controversy, is a very good way to integrate these two cultures and foster mutual understanding etc. What exactly do you expect to attain, or furthermore mean, by proposing to condemn a crucial part of Muslim culture?

 

[Stylo]

Thread rated 1 for 'Terrible'.

 

[Bad^Hat]

I happen to agree with most of the dudes comments, and I especially agree with the comments of 'Mike'. I think building a place of worship for Islam right next to Ground Zero is absolutely appalling

Wasn't there a thread on this already? Like, when it happened and was still relevant?

It wasn't "right next" to Ground Zero, it was blocks away. I'll leave the rest of your post alone, but don't be spewing bullshit like this.

 

[flamingdts]

We shouldn't build anything next to Ground Zero because buildings are made by people, and people are responsible for 911.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

Oh, Shift. Shift.



Shouldn't most things about your country make you feel that way?

Mostly the loudest things. If I gave a shit about most things, I'd be in a mental asylum.

 

[Shift]

It wasn't "right next" to Ground Zero, it was blocks away.

Two blocks..

 

[CptStern]

yes 2 blocks is "blocks"

even though you said it was right next door:

I think building a place of worship for Islam right next to Ground Zero

it also wasnt a mosque as you imply it's a community centre that has a mosque in it; which is no different than a jewish community centre that has a synagog in it


in any event you are ignorant around the issue:

The project's sponsors explained that the original name of the center was meant to invoke 8th–11th century Córdoba, which they call a model of peaceful coexistence between Muslims, Christians, and Jews.

While the media widely described the center as a mosque, and the protests were against the mosque, the Initiative's official blog portrayed it as a community center with prayer space, making comparisons to the YMCA or Jewish Community Center.[80] The Initiative said that some services planned for the Cordoba House, such as the restaurant and performance center, disqualify it from being a mosque

The Muslim prayer space is planned to occupy two floors of the 13 story building.[84] Besides the prayer space, the Initiative's plan includes a 500-seat auditorium, theater, performing arts center, fitness center, swimming pool, basketball court, childcare services, art exhibitions, bookstore, culinary school, and a food court serving halal dishes

Khan said the project is intended to foster better relations between Islam and Americans.[5][94] Explaining the choice of location, she said, "We decided we wanted to look at the legacy of 9/11 and do something positive." She added that her group represents moderate Muslims who want "to reverse the trend of extremism and the kind of ideology that the extremists are spreading".[95] Pointing to the fact that ordinary Muslims have been killed by Muslim extremists all over the world, Khan also said about the mosque, "For us it is a symbol... that will give voice to the silent majority of Muslims who suffer at the hands of extremists. A center will show that Muslims will be part of rebuilding Lower Manhattan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park51

you're a poor follower of Jesus' teachings Shift

 

[Asknoone]

Two blocks..

Hey. Don't come in here with your bullshit and ignore rebuttals. Address Schru.

 

[CowPunk]

I happen to agree with most of the dudes comments, and I especially agree with the comments of 'Mike'. I think building a place of worship for Islam right next to Ground Zero is absolutely appalling considering 9/11 was the result of Muslim men hijacking and flying two planes into the Twin Towers, each to become a martyr for Allah, and yes the Qur'an most certainly does encourage this. The man they look up to the most stated in Bukhari (52:54) "I would love to be martyred in Allah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred", plenty of encouragement I would say..

The societies we live in, the governments that run them, I think are just too quick to stand up for Islam, and buy into the whole idea that its a religion of peace, and terrorists are just nut cases, when they just need to wake up and actually read the content for themselves and understand that a huge portion of it is based off hate and violence and actually encourages these attacks.

It reminds me of the build up to World War 2, Hitler was busy breaking the treaty of Versailles by rearming his army, marching into the Sudetenland, and then into the rest of Czechoslovakia and then into the Rhineland and all the while Wiston Churchill, not yet prime minister, was pleading to the British government to mobilize and attack Germany while it was still vulnerable but it fell on deaf ears. Its because he was only person in that position of authority that actually properly read Mein Kampf and realized the true nature of Hitler's plans.

What? Have you ever talked to someone of the Muslim faith? The ones I've talked to were the kindest people I'd met up to that point in my life. I talked to the Imam's (I believe that is what the title is...) assistant a few years back, he told me that the Qur'an taught acceptance and kindness. All these radical muslims are taking the Qur'ans words way to extreme. This has never happened in Christianity, amirite?

 

[Sulkdodds]

I think that such extensive contact, particularly when it causes controversy, is a very good way to integrate these two cultures and foster mutual understanding etc. What exactly do you expect to attain, or furthermore mean, by proposing to condemn a crucial part of Muslim culture?

Quiffy, as people used to say. So we decide that Islam is a religion of hatred. What do we do then? Are we actually going to ban it in our countries, harass and marginalise those who practice it, violate our principles of religious freedom? Are we going to try and wage war on Muslim nations and forcibly convert their population? Where does it get us to take this totalising perspective?

 

[Shift]

yes 2 blocks is "blocks"

even though you said it was right next door:

Figure of speech, 2 blocks is what? A few hundred feet? That’s quite a significant distance.

it also wasnt a mosque as you imply it's a community centre that has a mosque in it; which is no different than a jewish community centre that has a synagog in it

Well I can’t help it if the media state that it’s a mosque when it isn’t, I was wrongly informed so sue me.

The project's sponsors explained that the original name of the center was meant to invoke 8th–11th century Córdoba, which they call a model of peaceful coexistence between Muslims, Christians, and Jews.

This is the part where I find the quotes from the Qur’an singling out Christians and Jews and how Muslims should not befriend them.

you're a poor follower of Jesus' teachings Shift

Yes you of course being an expert on the subject.

What? Have you ever talked to someone of the Muslim faith? The ones I've talked to were the kindest people I'd met up to that point in my life. I talked to the Imam's (I believe that is what the title is...) assistant a few years back, he told me that the Qur'an taught acceptance and kindness. All these radical muslims are taking the Qur'ans words way to extreme. This has never happened in Christianity, amirite?

I am well aware there are a lot of Muslims who are kind people, but I am not addressing the Muslim people, I’m addressing the religion itself and what its scripture teaches and no, it does not teach acceptance and kindness. I mean its right there in black and white and there is no ‘extreme’ way of taking Muhammed encouraging Muslims to be a martyr. I mean if Islamic suicide bombings were a rare thing then I could take that view, but it happens all the time, and they aren’t just lunatics, they are on a lot of occasions well educated men.

Quiffy, as people used to say. So we decide that Islam is a religion of hatred. What do we do then? Are we actually going to ban it in our countries, harass and marginalise those who practice it, violate our principles of religious freedom? Are we going to try and wage war on Muslim nations and forcibly convert their population? Where does it get us to take this totalising perspective?

I just think Western societies need to start looking at the scripture of Islam in more detail before blindly assuming it’s a religion of peace and think clearly about the influence in carries and maybe, impose stricter sanctions on the amount of Muslims coming into our countries (or at least a harsher vetting system). I find it highly disturbing that so many are quick to defend Islam when its scripture carries so much hatred.

I also find it unbelievable that so many people on here will defend Islam yet will pounce on every opportunity to condemn Christianity, saying it’s an abomination on society and its advancements and it should be eradicated, when it’s the other side and its influences that are causing countless people to hijack planes and fly them into buildings, or strap explosives to themselves to blow up crowded markets. Oh yeh and guess what, they also believe in a God, and probably share the same principles against abortion etc, why must they be segregated from your attacks on religion?

 

[Yorick]

I’m addressing the religion itself and what its scripture teaches and no, it does not teach acceptance and kindness. I mean its right there in black and white and there is no ‘extreme’ way of taking Muhammed encouraging Muslims to be a martyr. I mean if Islamic suicide bombings were a rare thing then I could take that view, but it happens all the time, and they aren’t just lunatics, they are on a lot of occasions well educated men.

Shift I feel like you have a skewed, and dare I say American view of Islam.

The Qur'an is meant to be viewed as a whole. Any number of passages from it can be taken completely out of context to mean something completely different and that's the problem with all religious books. Some believers will cite certain passages that support their arguments, and ignore connecting passages.

If you're addressing the religion itself, then certainly you must agree that all religions carry that inherent problem of misinterpretation and the ability to do great evil. Is what has been going on the last few years any different from Christianity's holy crusade hundreds of years ago?

You should find some things to support your argument, because I'm relatively certain that it isn't there in black and white. There's a quote that gets thrown around a lot from the Qur'an that says "Kill the mushriqeen (pagans, polytheists, kuffar) where ever you find them." When taken out of context, yes, it supports what you're saying. But the verse before that explains that these particular pagans violated a treaty and were given adequate time to make amends. War was only declared as a last resort.

 

[Sulkdodds]

For me both Islam and Christianity are highly problematic ideologies that both have something to offer even if to my mind it is rarely worth the price. Both are highly conditioned by the societies in which they incubate. They have doctrinal differences, but the interpretation of holy texts varies so wildly according to context and culture that they are almost irrelevant compared to societal/economic/historical causes when investigating the divides between them. In a different thread that I can't be bothered to go back to, Shift, you cited the Lockerbie bombers and Palestinian terrorists as examples of Muslim violence but rejected the IRA as examples of Christian violence. But Lockerbie happened under the auspices of a civilian government for political reasons, while Palestinians are responding as much to their circumstances as their God if not far more. For the IRA, politics and religion were overwhelmingly bound together, and their identity was firmly Catholic. You can't give with one hand and take with the other, allowing Lockerbie to stand as an example of Muslim fundamentalism and the IRA to be cut out of Christianity (you had some other suspect examples, I recall). Even if you succeed in claiming there is some over-arching ideologically 'pure' version of True Christianity which forbids violence and a similar Pure Islam that endorses it, you do so over the heads of the millions of people constantly arguing about what their religion means, with as much or more grounds for their arguments than you. And in the meantime you cannot deny that followers of both religions have the capacity for violence.

Why should there be sanctions specifically on Muslim immigration rather than any other ideology? If anything you should posit a set of ideological positions that immigrants should have to demonstrate - for example a commitment to free speech and the rule of law - which would apply across religious categories. But quite aside from the slightly torturous logic involved in forbidding people to think that people should not be able to think what they like, such proposals would be completely unenforceable, prey to deception or (in the case of people coming from countries where ideological compliance was a necessity of survival) muddy waters when you try to investigate histories. Not to mention it would entail a lot of bureaucracy, which would cost a lot of money. Finally, all the decisions would either have to be taken according to an objective checklist, whose limitations and strictness would end up being kafkaesque in its contradictions, or the decisions would have to be taken by human beings, who are subject to all kinds of cognitive biases including a hefty deal of casual, unconscious or only semi-conscious racism.

I would also suggest that you be very wary of claiming knowledge of a book you haven't read in the language that its followers have absorbed it for a millenium. Yeah, the Bible is originally Koine Greek, but it's been read for at least four hundred years in early modern English as the KJV and there are even groups that claim this is the only legitimate version. The Quran by contrast has all that time remained in an allusive and ambiguous form of old Arabic that readers argue cannot be adequately translated.

 

[Bad^Hat]

Shift, you're not the authority on your religion. Please know this. You've explained your interpretation of the Bible before, and I can appreciate where you're coming from, but your version is not the be-all-end-all, nor are you practicing "correct" Christianity as you might like to think. No one truly is. You of all people should know that religion is a deeply personal matter that can't be guided purely by scripture, and each person's own interpretation or faith is just as valid to them as the next. Yes, some scripture may have more potential for incitement or division than others, but when you judge Islam "just by it's religion" and then apply that judgment to Muslims across the board, you do so at the exclusion of every Muslim who chooses to practice their faith peacefully and in adherence to the law and social etiquette.