Weapon Bashing: Is it too powerful?

[Kinslayer]

Yes, I know you probably can't survive without the weapon bash. But is it too powerful, does it actually decrease the amount of skill and teamwork needed to progress through the level?

Why I think this:

1) You can't be touched unless completely surrounded (which isn't possible if you have your back against a wall), meaning even if a horde charges you just back into the corner and right click away.

2) I went through the entire campaign on normal using only medpacks with weapon bash (the other 3 players were doing it as well) - Granted normal is very easy, but this still shouldn't be possible (on any difficulty). I don't think anyone even got knocked down.

3) You can bash while reloading, and the reloading is not interrupted; it continues unhindered, even while bashing (possible bug).

4) Bashing kills in a few hits, has a very long stun time, and is a counter for most boss infected (pushes boomers back, stuns hunters and pushes them off of people, stuns smokers and pushes them off of people).

I think that it would go a long way if there was a SMALL (SMALL) cooldown between each bash, as well as fixing the bashing-while-reloading thing. A decrease in the area that the bash hits would also help so you aren't hitting the whole 180 degree area in front of you. That way you couldn't just bash your way to victory.

By the way, I play on Expert (except for #2 example), so don't think I'm playing on easy. They still can't touch you if you back into a corner on expert.

 

[Pesmerga]

Shooting is still more effective, and if Expert is incredibly hard with shooting + bashing, I think bashing is pretty balanced. You can't bash when you're knocked down, so there's very few moments which you can use bash to shove off more than four zombies at once.

 

[Iron_cube]

Please for the love of god, do not ask for nerfs about a co-op game.

Wait until versus is released first, at least.

 

[MacBowes]

Bashing is in no way OP'ed.

 

[ailevation]

no...

 

[Omnomnick]

^That.

It is fine.

 

[Druckles]

I've found myself get out of the trickiest situations with a nice bash.

If you compare the situation to how you'd survive in real-life, of course it's going to be overpowered. This isn't real-life, though, so I have few opinions on it.

Also, you can't bash the Tank or a Witch.

 

[Kinslayer]

Shooting is still more effective, and if Expert is incredibly hard with shooting + bashing, I think bashing is pretty balanced.

But it isn't; if you have a team that has played a few games, the zombies can't touch you, especially if you stay in a group. Any of them that get close just get bashed back, if not just shot in the face before they get there. You can still charge ahead without really stopping to regroup or formulate a strategy, you just run in and shoot, and then if things go bad bash your way out. Expert should be for those looking for a challenge, not the base setting for those who have played a few games and know what they're doing.

I've found myself get out of the trickiest situations with a nice bash.

Which is the problem, isn't it? Shouldn't you be at least knocked down from a tricky situation instead of getting out unscathed? Shouldn't you be punished for not being careful instead of just using the easy-out, especially on expert difficulty?

Also, you can't bash the Tank or a Witch.

True, but you don't really need to. The tank is slow and can be surrounded (it gets confused), and the witch can be taken out without problem in a coordinated attack (she staggers when she takes a lot of damage in a short amount of time, making for an easy kill). On top of this, you won't really have to deal with one of those (yet at least) while dealing with the horde, they usually come at you alone, or in the case of the witch, you choose when to fight her.
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I'm not debating whether it's overpowered or not here; I know is, most of you know it is. I'm debating whether it lessens the fun of the game because it provides an easy-out for nearly every situation.

And do you all really think that bashing while reloading should be in the game? At least make it interrupt the reload so you just can't hold down rmb until the reloading time is finished.

And I'd also like to ask that if you're going to respond, add some content to the post instead of being an ass and responding without saying anything. Otherwise don't waste your time. I don't give a damn how many posts you have, responding with "no...." doesn't add anything, it just makes you look like a dick.

 

[Druckles]

But it isn't; if you have a team that has played a few games, the zombies can't touch you, especially if you stay in a group. Any of them that get close just get bashed back, if not just shot in the face before they get there. You can still charge ahead without really stopping to regroup or formulate a strategy, you just run in and shoot, and then if things go bad bash your way out. Expert should be for those looking for a challenge, not the base setting for those who have played a few games and know what they're doing.

I agree, but Valve seems to be focussing their games towards the more casual gamers, the harder settings now what we might have found to be normal, previously. Simply because 'we' as a forum who've been playing games for countless years find it easy it doesn't mean the majority of the population of gamers find it easy.

Which is the problem, isn't it? Shouldn't you be at least knocked down from a tricky situation instead of getting out unscathed? Shouldn't you be punished for not being careful instead of just using the easy-out, especially on expert difficulty?

It's hard to be careful against a swarm of zombies coming at you. Eventually you're going to get surrounded and bashing them will help you remove one side. You're not going to get out unscathed, though, because someone's going to get through. If you're playing on Expert this will be a significant chunk of health.

Let's say you're against a wall, though, in a corner. You can keep bashing the zombies back and not get hurt at all. How long can you keep it up, though, because there are 10 zombies all fighting to hurt you and you can't stop bashing or one will hurt you. Bashing them won't kill them, so you're stuck waiting for your "friends" to help you out.

To say it's overpowered is a bit of an exaggeration, though.

True, but you don't really need to. The tank is slow and can be surrounded (it gets confused), and the witch can be taken out without problem in a coordinated attack (she staggers when she takes a lot of damage in a short amount of time, making for an easy kill).

You're saying this as if your whole team can really work together and each individual member is pretty good at the game. In that case then you're going to win. You deserve to win. That's the idea. Congratulations, you've figured out how to beat the game.

I'm not debating whether it's overpowered or not here; I know is, most of you know it is. I'm debating whether it lessens the fun of the game because it provides an easy-out for nearly every situation.

Nope. Wouldn't be fun if I kept on dying.

And do you all really think that bashing while reloading should be in the game? At least make it interrupt the reload so you just can't hold down rmb until the reloading time is finished.

It's a bug. Much like the quick-shot for Sniper in TF2.

And I'd also like to ask that if you're going to respond, add some content to the post instead of being an ass and responding without saying anything. Otherwise don't waste your time. I don't give a damn how many posts you have, responding with "no...." doesn't add anything, it just makes you look like a dick.

Responding to a dick makes you seem like a dick. Particularly when you behave like a dick back. Ignoring them would be the mature solution.

 

[Pesmerga]

Actually I don't think reloading while bashing is a bug. It's too obvious for the devs to have overlooked, and it's there for a reason- to keep the pace of the game fast and furious.

 

[Hectic Glenn]

This game has been tweaked and balanced massively, for months in fact. The bashing is an integral part of the game which has also undergone this treatment. On advanced I may get knocked down once, in expert I'll hobble over the finish line 1/6 tries on that map. Based on those statistics and the fact most people agree expert is a real challenge it proves the bash isn't ruining the game experience or too powerful.

If everyone was winning flawlessly each time due to the bash I'd agree. But you win due to team work and preparing for situations well. I don't honestly see how you came to this conclusion with such a small part of the game. In MOST games you have a melee weapon which does alot of damage up close. The bash is the replacement for this, and saves you having to change a weapon. I completely disagree with everything you said.

 

[Iron_cube]

Getting bashed as a player infected is hardcore though, your camera goes TF2-taunt style and you are helplessly watching your zombie trying to recover while going a mile backward.

There will be tons of whine about versus mode, I assure you.

 

[Top Secret]

Let's say you're against a wall, though, in a corner. You can keep bashing the zombies back and not get hurt at all. How long can you keep it up, though, because there are 10 zombies all fighting to hurt you and you can't stop bashing or one will hurt you. Bashing them won't kill them, so you're stuck waiting for your "friends" to help you out.

This is false. Bashing kills zombies in 2-3 hits. Also, you can hit upwards of 4-5 zombies in one hit.

I do think bashing is overpowered.

I also realize that this is a co-op game, and the fact that bashing is overpowered is far less significant.

 

[MJ12]

Bashing is powerful against regular zombies on Normal, but otherwise it's not something you can use to win.

See, during normal I would run up to zombies, jump and bash. This worked really well until expert rolled around.

 

[Kinslayer]

I agree, but Valve seems to be focussing their games towards the more casual gamers, the harder settings now what we might have found to be normal, previously. Simply because 'we' as a forum who've been playing games for countless years find it easy it doesn't mean the majority of the population of gamers find it easy.

You're saying this as if your whole team can really work together and each individual member is pretty good at the game. In that case then you're going to win. You deserve to win. That's the idea. Congratulations, you've figured out how to beat the game.

I suppose now that you've pointed this out, there is a point to consider here; I have been playing mostly with my friends, most of whom are FPS nerds, so you do have a point here. I guess my main problem with the game in this aspect is that the difficulties are labeled wrong, there should be a "very easy" the way the game is labeled now, and then add an even higher difficulty and call that "expert". From my viewpoint, though, even if you "do it right" every time, it shouldn't be a guaranteed-flawless-come-out-unscathed victory if you come upon the unfortunate chance of having to kill the witch. However, since we've only played through the first two levels of (what I've heard is) the easiest campaign, I can't really draw a conclusion on the ease of the game. I also play RTS, so I may be biased in the form that you can't follow one simple formula and expect to win every time. Maybe that's the kind of "teamplay perfection" this game is built around, I don't know.

Actually I don't think reloading while bashing is a bug. It's too obvious for the devs to have overlooked, and it's there for a reason- to keep the pace of the game fast and furious.

On the higher difficulties, you should be forced, as a team, to time your reloads so you wouldn't have to do this. On the lower difficulties it doesn't really matter since you don't need bash in the first place, except to knock off boss infected. It also looks stupid as the two animations conflict and the arms go everywhere.

This game has been tweaked and balanced massively, for months in fact. The bashing is an integral part of the game which has also undergone this treatment. On advanced I may get knocked down once, in expert I'll hobble over the finish line 1/6 tries on that map. Based on those statistics and the fact most people agree expert is a real challenge it proves the bash isn't ruining the game experience or too powerful.

I have different results than you do, advanced, with a random team (joining a server), maybe the whole team has one knockdown per map (pretty much like you), due to someone falling behind or rushing ahead or whatever. On expert the only real time we've been killed or everyone's gotten knockdown is if someone rushes ahead into fire so everyone is forced to hold their fire JUST for that guy, or someone decides to stay back and miss all the zombies but shoot all the survivors. I think I've only truely lost (non-tk fest at end of map) a few times on expert, when I've played it nearly every single time. All of us get knocked down at least once though, and one person usually dies, but that is usually negated by the spawning-closet (should be less of them and more out-of-the-way in my opinion).

If everyone was winning flawlessly each time due to the bash I'd agree. But you win due to team work and preparing for situations well. I don't honestly see how you came to this conclusion with such a small part of the game. In MOST games you have a melee weapon which does alot of damage up close. The bash is the replacement for this, and saves you having to change a weapon. I completely disagree with everything you said.

Maybe not flawlessly; but it does let teams that shouldn't be playing on that difficulty cross the finish line, at least in the demo. I don't know if it gets harder later, yeah the finale is harder, but other than that, I don't know. The difference between the bash and other melee weapons is that you can reload while bashing, and you don't have to switch to the melee weapon in other games. Other melee weapons also don't stun and push back the opponent. If nothing else is done, just interrupt reloading while bashing. The animation looks completely messed up when you do it too, so at least fix that if anything. Maybe someone could email valve and ask them whether the weapon-bash-while-reloading is a bug or not.

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This all isn't to say that I don't enjoy the demo; I've played the same two damn maps for about 7.5 hours (or so steam says, I may have left the game on and it still counted time), which speaks for the replayability of the rest of the game. I just enjoy challenge, and not bashing makes it impossible (or close-to on expert), while using bash makes it way too easy against hordes.

 

[Eejit]

I'll just say wait until you try Impossible Difficulty and late-game maps before passing judgement on difficulty settings.

Oh and about how the difficulty levels are named, it's probably a psychological thing. I suspect people get more of a sense of accomplishment progressing from normal to advanced than from easy to normal.

 

[Kinslayer]

I'll just say wait until you try Impossible Difficulty and late-game maps before passing judgement on difficulty settings.

I thought Expert was Impossible? Or are they adding another difficulty when the game comes out?

 

[Reginald]

Even if melee attacks are too powerful and you can win the whole level just by doing them, I don't care. If I find something in a game too easy, I make it more challenging. I won't play through Left 4 Dead just by weapon bashing. Because it's not fun.

And besides, some of the best moments I've had in L4D is when 3 people are down on the ground and the last person hasn't noticed the Tank chucking a piece of concrete at him from behind. The fun is in the challenge, not the ease of completion. It's like the people who shouted at me in a public server today for disturbing the witch. That's part of the fun of the game! I didn't want to disturb the witch. But I did. That's why the game is fun.


Hmm... rant over.

 

[Sheepo]

Complaining about a specific thing being overpowered, when you choose whether to do it or not, is silly. Just like the people who complained about the exploits in HL2 where you could completely avoid being shot by holding an object in front of you. Then don't do it.

 

[Kinslayer]

Complaining about a specific thing being overpowered, when you choose whether to do it or not, is silly. Just like the people who complained about the exploits in HL2 where you could completely avoid being shot by holding an object in front of you. Then don't do it.

That's my point though, there isn't a such thing as "half bashing". You need it to do well, but you can't really make an arbitrary decision on "how much bashing I'm going to do today" so it doesn't make it too easy. I'd agree with you if it was a choice; I often shake my head at people who make themselves invincible in a single player RPG game then complain about it on forums, but this isn't the same, both because it's multiplayer and because there's just an off or on switch to it. You can't put bashing power at 60% instead of 100%.

If you don't bash you'll die; if you do use it when you're supposed to (attacked by multiple zombies or vs a boss infected), it becomes too easy.

 

[ktimekiller]

You are assuming everyone in the game knows how to shoot, and work together.

Even within my friends, who are all arguably decent in fps, kept running into each others fire, and essentially not playing it like a co-op game, more of a death match?

You speak of good teamwork and skill, which isnt present every single game.

EDIT: Also, a full house of players in expert seems to ramp up the difficulty alot more than 3/4 or less.

 

[Eejit]

I thought Expert was Impossible? Or are they adding another difficulty when the game comes out?

Another, higher, difficulty level from what I understand.

 

[Druckles]

I shouldn't think I'll find Expert particularly easy in the full Campaign.

 

[nipples]

In no way is it overpowered, its meant to be strong.

Good for you, you and your friends beat Normal while only bashing. Normal isn't very difficult at all, its incredibly easy to beat Advanced while only bashing, the Tank is an exception.

I find this more to the huge jump in difficulty between Advanced and Expert.

 

[CyberPitz]

It works just fine for me. I don't think it's really overpowered, it's necessary for survival. They spent a lot of time balancing the game, and they feel that bash is just fine for what it is. If you think it's cheesy to sit in a corner and bash and bash, don't do it then. Find a way around it or don't get in that situation!