Weird case of discrimination in WoW

[CptStern]

I'd have to disagree. It reeks of tokenism to me...

"Hey, we're just like any other guild... but by the way, we'll let you in regardless of your sexual orientation!"

As kirovman states- even though it's true- it's implying that every other guild will repulse a homosexual or bisexual gamer on sight and that hers is the only enlightened group. It's entirely unnecessary in any setting- I don't want people declaring their sexual preference to me under any circumstances because it's utterly irellevant- and what's she done, quite simply, is put Blizzard on the spot.

I can sympathise with both, but she's the one that has forced Blizzard's hand- whether Blizzard is right or wrong, this woman needs to realise that she's just as responsible for creating this kind of "discrimination" as the games company is. Because, quite simply, would this issue have ever appeared if she hadn't brought it to the fore with her own misguided aims?

yes I see your point but it's stretching it a little bit by saying she's perpetuating discrimination ..it's almost like saying that homophobia wouldnt exist if there werent homosexuals ..but again I see your point and there is validity to it it's just that I dont agree with pandering to the majority just to placate them

it's something that we'll see soon enough when black history month rolls around or st patricks day or gay pride day or Cinco de mayo ..it's like people have gone full circle with political correctness "why should they have their day when we dont"

 

[Edcrab]

Yeah, I'll concede that Blizzard definitely made a bad judgement by trying to pass it off as an anti-discriminatory action: they should've simply been honest and taken to the common-sense high ground. I think this woman introduced this policy purely so she could attempt to glean some publicity: either that or she's just a well-meaning twit.

As for the "why should they..." remark... well, the fact is "positive discrimination" has long been a sore point for me. Why, for example, does the British government grant the disabled guaranteed interviews for civil service positions? Certainly, if they can't write it's fair to give them a chance to represent themselves in person since their poor application form can't do them justice- but just because they're partially sighted? Or wheelchair bound? Where's the logic in that? Blah!

One thing to recognise and respect minorities and increase public awareness but it's another thing entirely when they get unfairly preferential treatment... blargh!

+1 Off topic.

 

[Jintor]

I think the intent was good but the way it was carried out was probably not the best (by Blizzard).

 

[Codcommando]

RPG=role playing game.which means keep your real life out.unless your a gay elf,then thats a different story.

 

[CptStern]

Shacknews ran this today:



Blizzard Plays It a Bit Too Safe [05:00 pm]
350 Comments - Chris Remo

Blizzard has been making news this week with a recent warning issue to Sara Andrews, a World of Warcraft guild leader, to stop advertising or recruiting for her guild. The guild in question, called Oz, is a "GLBT friendly" guild, meaning its members are open to the possibility that their guildmates may be of an alternative sexual orientation, and will not engage in insults or other derogatory behavior. Blizzard, however, feels that this sort of thing has no place in the game. A company rep responded to the controversy on the game's official forums:

We encourage community building among our players with others of similar interests, and we understand that guilds are one of the primary ways to forge these communities. However, topics related to sensitive real-world subjects -- such as religious, sexual, or political preference, for example -- have had a tendency to result in communication between players that often breaks down into harassment.

Blizzard's point is that discussing sexual matters in open chat leads to harassment, but the guild in question was not discussing such matters in open chat, they were merely informing other players that a guild exists where they can have such discussion in private, precisely to avoid running into the problems Blizzard claims will occur.

A Shacker and World of Warcraft player named James S. was aware of the guild in question. "I used to play on that server. Advertisements were merely of the form '< Oz > is currently recruiting members! We are a GLBT friendly guild!'," he states. "From what I recall (correct me if I'm wrong), nothing inflammatory or offensive." When I contacted him for further comment, he made the important point that MMOs are by their nature social games, and it is only to be expected that many players will want a place where they can speak freely, especially through private channels, about their lives.

Some may say that such guilds have no place existing in a video games at all--it's a game, why bring sexuality into it? Well, the reality is that the best and most enjoyable guilds to be in are the ones whose members have a strong rapport, who can feel free to shoot the breeze in guild chat, and who enjoy chatting while performing what is, in many cases, repetitive gameplay. When I was a more regular WoW player, my guild was that way; somebody might mention something that happened with his girlfriend that day in the context of a conversation, and it was just part of the overall flow of our guild chat channel. If a male player was in guild chat, and brought up his boyfriend in the exact same context, he'd probably have to deal with a lot of backlash and, since these games take place on the internet, plenty of negative comments.

It seems perfectly reasonable that a guild made up of members who will not hold prejudice against that type of conversation--and it's worth reiterating that, as Andrews points out, the guild is "'GLBT-friendly,' not 'GLBT-only'"--would want to inform other like-minded players about the guild's existence.

As far as Blizzard goes, I certainly do not believe, as I have seen suggested elsewhere, that Blizzard is somehow anti-gay or pro-bigotry. The company has a clause in its terms of use prohibiting "language which insultingly refers to any aspect of sexual orientation pertaining to themselves or other players." In their attempt to protect players, the company has played it a bit too safe. In the case of Andrews' innocuous advertisement, it's tough to find any insulting language. In fact, language insulting to gays (and any ethnicity, and disabled people, and so on) runs rampant throughout chat channels in games like World of Warcraft, completely unprovoked. I see it every time I log in, any time of day, and it's disheartening to see it run rampant while Blizzard mismanages the situation by stopping legitimate guild advertisement. I do not suggest Blizzard institute a zero-tolerance censorship policy to compensate; rather, they should simply allow interested players to be aware of a guild that specifically does not want any part of that kind of insulting chat.

Speaking of innocent sexual language being used in the game, Blizzard built plenty of it into the shipping product, which makes this situation even more absurd. There is a "/flirt" emote with many prerecorded lines of dialogue, including one that states, "Homogenized? No way, I like the ladies!" In fact, when I was just now in the game cycling through the pre-recorded "/flirt" emotes in order to find that one, another male character walked up to me and repeatedly invoked the "/sexy" emote, which appeared to me as "Circuitjerky thinks you are a sexy devil." Should I have reported this behavior to a GM? Somebody could have been insulted!


interesting insights

http://www.shacknews.com/ja.zz?comments=40606

 

[Pajari]

it's open to intrepretation and can lead to slippery slope that leads right back to discrimination based on gender ...I'm sure if I advertised that I had a male only guild Blizzard wouldnt bat an eyelash

If this were the real world I'd probably care, but Azeroth? Is it really worth worrying about, at all?

What exactly is the point of a 'gay-friendly' guild (implying that all other guilds are gay-hostile, I guess), other than to needlessly invite every 13 year old idiot on the server to spam the word FAG in the general chat channel? I play games to get away from that kind of bs.

The solution to not getting harrased as a gay/lesbian person playing an online game is to find a guild that doesn't have those 13-year old idiots, not to trumpet to the world that you are making a bold move for digital gay rights.

In the end I agree with Blizzard and I think that this is just going to stir up shit. The Internet is known for many things, but tolerance is not one of them. WoW, in particular, is not mature enough to handle such grown-up issues.

I know you're going to call me a homophobe, stern, but I'll have none of it .

 

[CptStern]

If this were the real world I'd probably care, but Azeroth? Is it really worth worrying about, at all?

What exactly is the point of a 'gay-friendly' guild (implying that all other guilds are gay-hostile, I guess), other than to needlessly invite every 13 year old idiot on the server to spam the word FAG in the general chat channel? I play games to get away from that kind of bs.

I'm surprised at how few people read the actual links from the first page:


her original recruitment:

"OZ [the name of her guild] is recruiting all levels ¦ We are not 'GLBT only,' but we are 'GLBT friendly'!

The solution to not getting harrased as a gay/lesbian person playing an online game is to find a guild that doesn't have those 13-year old idiots, not to trumpet to the world that you are making a bold move for digital gay rights.

what the hell are you talking about? not one word of that is correct: she wasnt championing gay rights she was advertising her guild as being tolerant of anybody regardless of sexual orientation

In the end I agree with Blizzard and I think that this is just going to stir up shit. The Internet is known for many things, but tolerance is not one of them. WoW, in particular, is not mature enough to handle such grown-up issues.

be that as it may it's not their fault there are intolerant people in this world. this is the guild's philosophy

OZ is a Guild within the realms of World of Warcraft - the highly successful massively multiplayer online role playing game (MMORPG). We are an Alliance Guild and play on the Shadow Moon server. The credo of OZ is one of peace and unity without judgments or intolerance of others, whatever they may be.

The idea for OZ sprang from the mind of our Guild Master, also known as the Wizard of OZ, Shimmre. She, along with others, were tired of being in guilds where the all too old and tired phrase "That's so gay" was used all too frequently and where gay jokes and bashes seemed all too prevalent. There just did not seem to be a place for the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) community to fit in when it came to guilds in the game. So Shimmre decided to change that. But during the course of the development of the guild it was decided that the guild would not be exclusively GLBT. We did not want to send the message that it seemed so many others were sending us...one of unacceptance and intolerance of others.



...and this isnt over, not by a country mile ..I said it would snowball and it has


http://www.innewsweekly.com/innews/?class_code=Ga&article_code=1172

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/01/31/blizzard-vs-gaymers-are-other-minorities-next/

"The nation’s oldest and largest legal group dedicated to the protection of gay and lesbian civil rights is looking into the whole
Brouhaha surrounding Blizzard’s seemingly anti-gay guild recruitment policies.

Lambda Legal attorney Brian Chase told Kotaku Thursday that he is working with Sara Andrews, of Tennessee, and Greg Woo, of California, about the issue."


and blizzard has taken steps to protect themselves by banning any recruiment by ANY special interest groups ..including political, sexual, or religious preference in open chat ..that means no more "Join jesus saves guild" or anything like it

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=6847462&tmp=1#post6847462

I know you're going to call me a homophobe, stern, but I'll have none of it .

this is the first I've seen you post ..so probably not

 

[Pajari]

My issue is not that she's being tolerant- there are probably tons of guilds you could join in WoW that wouldn't bat an eyelash at a gay or lesbian person. My issue is with the fact that she is explicitly advertising the fact that her guild is not only gay and lesbian friendly, but some sort of safe haven for gay and lesbian people. There has to be tolerance for gays and lesbians in the real world, but if there are a few assholes that decide to make life miserable for others in a videogame by using the word fag occassionally, why stir things up needlessly by promoting a guild whose defining feature is the fact that it accepts gay and lesiban members?

And, of course, the real question to be asked here is, what's the difference between a level 60 thief played by a straight man and the same theif played by a gay man? Why even tell anyone online your sexual preference or any other information about yourself? Does it matter enough to really worry about at all? I think the answer is no and players of WoW should just avoid mentioning the subject entirely.

And, for the record, discrimination in Azeroth isn't worth a dime of the legal fund's money. "Someone looking into it" probably means that one of the staffers plays WoW occassionally.

 

[bliink]

I can kinda see where blizzard is coming from. If you keep "GLBT" out of the game, then you keep all the controversy and politics that go with it out, too.

They're trying to exclude real world politics from their fantasy world game.

 

[CptStern]

My issue is not that she's being tolerant- there are probably tons of guilds you could join in WoW that wouldn't bat an eyelash at a gay or lesbian person. My issue is with the fact that she is explicitly advertising the fact that her guild is not only gay and lesbian friendly, but some sort of safe haven for gay and lesbian people. There has to be tolerance for gays and lesbians in the real world, but if there are a few assholes that decide to make life miserable for others in a videogame by using the word fag occassionally, why stir things up needlessly by promoting a guild whose defining feature is the fact that it accepts gay and lesiban members?

so gay positive guild is not ok but these are?


Legends of the Allegiance
All of our members have something in common and it is truly a fun experience to share our qualities and beliefs with one another. We are a Christian WoW guild.

Tribe of Judah
was founded in May 1999 for Christian gamers to gather and enjoy the fellowship of other Christian gamers ...

Warriors of Cumorah:
"We are a primarily LDS (Latter Day Saints) guild website. You do not have to be LDS to join, we welcome all interested"

Redeemed
..a guild that was started when "a few friends were fascinated about how many Christians were wanting to start a Warcraft guild where they could all talk, game, and fellowship with one another"

WoW Bloodline
Parent gamer friendly, military friendly, gay friendly. Due to the explicit nature of the guild adult talk and language, we only accept 18+yrs at this time.


Worshippers of Elune
"We are a Swedish Alliance Guild primarly focused on Night Elves, but all races are welcome"

Saviors of Azeroth
A Small Alliance guild with younger members now with 19 members accepting only hunters, druids, and warlocks

Pillar of Autumn
We our a simle christian guild, you do not have to be a christian to join.

The Knights of Valor
We believe in a family like atmosphere where you know and trust all of your guildmates. We are looking for smart, mature, dedicated members to fill our open slots

Eminence
We have a strict set of rules, designed to allow only quality members into our ranks. We are by no means elitists, we just hate morons.

And, of course, the real question to be asked here is, what's the difference between a level 60 thief played by a straight man and the same theif played by a gay man? Why even tell anyone online your sexual preference or any other information about yourself? Does it matter enough to really worry about at all? I think the answer is no and players of WoW should just avoid mentioning the subject entirely.

yes, you're entitled to your opinion ..but again it's a gay friendly guild, you dont have to talk about your gender if you dont want to

And, for the record, discrimination in Azeroth isn't worth a dime of the legal fund's money. "Someone looking into it" probably means that one of the staffers plays WoW occassionally.

be that as it may, the point is that this isnt going to go away


here read this

http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/000894.php?page=1

 

[Sainku]

Worshippers of Elune
"We are a Swedish Alliance Guild primarly focused on Night Elves, but all races are welcome"

Saviors of Azeroth
A Small Alliance guild with younger members now with 19 members accepting only hunters, druids, and warlocks

You can't be serious. I understand the religious guilds, but guilds can't discriminate based on game race and faction? Now I know you play WoW and I know you know this is not only completely reasonable in the sense of game mechanics and role playing, but strategy and competitive gaming as well.

The Knights of Valor
We believe in a family like atmosphere where you know and trust all of your guildmates. We are looking for smart, mature, dedicated members to fill our open slots

Eminence
We have a strict set of rules, designed to allow only quality members into our ranks. We are by no means elitists, we just hate morons.

Those sick bastards, when will normal spamming 13 year olds EVER BE ACCEPTED AS EQUALS!

Wait...wait I see what you mean now!

we just hate morons

Discrimination based on intelligence and personality, this is truly horrid. WoW is much worse off than I thought. Who's right is it to say that immature whiney spammers can't join a guild just because they are pricks.


This guild served no purpose, its advertisement destroyed any purpose or potential to be a safe haven from the games general homophobic populus it might have ever had. Sexual orientation has no more a place in this game than it does in something like counter-strike. By getting rid of this guild blizzard saved themselves the trouble of having to deal with tons of harrasment policy violations. Why should these christian guilds be allowed to exist then? I have no clue, they are probably to numerous to get rid of them all and shutting them down could prove to be much more difficult for blizzard than anything some fourm complaints about blizzard being homophobes ever will.


Finally

WoW Bloodline
Parent gamer friendly, military friendly, gay friendly. Due to the explicit nature of the guild adult talk and language, we only accept 18+yrs at this time.

What the hell? Why not just say
WoW Bloodline
"We are friendly, and like to talk about dirty things only suitable for young children and as such young children are not allowed."

 

[CptStern]

the point is that there are many guilds that cater to a wide assortment of tastes

if you're a moron you'll probably avoid Eminence, if you're a family man who wants to play with your peers you may be interested in The Knights of Valor ...the point is that people extend their real life personas into game worlds, you cant avoid it

 

[Glirk Dient]

the point is that there are many guilds that cater to a wide assortment of tastes

if you're a moron you'll probably avoid Eminence, if you're a family man who wants to play with your peers you may be interested in The Knights of Valor ...the point is that people extend their real life personas into game worlds, you cant avoid it

You can't avoid it, but you can minimize it to avoid conflict. Religious guilds are fine, most people are religious in some way or another and want to play with people who are like that. Guilds like that don't cause a lot of controversy throughout the community. Religion isn't usually thought of as negative either. GLBT is the opposite, lots of controversy. Hence them not allowing it. They also banned a guild from being the "LOLacaust". Nobody reported it but it was banned...why? Controversial and mostly offensive to people.

 

[DrDevin]

I don't understand the reason why you would have such a guild.

If you want gays and other minorities to have equal rights why are you publicizing your differences?

I don't care if you are GLBT, we should all be equal, and just have a fun time playing WoW. You are being a hypocritical if you want to be the same as everyone else and then tell everyone you are different.

You are being more racist by advertising that you are GLBT friendly, as you are suggesting everyone else is not GLBT friendly and that being GLBT you should hang around with a certain group of people because others won't like you.

Also as was mentioned, a couple GLBTs possibly being unhappy is no real loss. If you elimated male/female etc only guilds they could lose millions. This game is their job and I think they would like to make a bit of money off of it!

 

[CptStern]

...yet you dont have a problem with guilds that are set up that are "christian friendly" or "family friendly"? ..it's just the gheys that you object to?

You can't avoid it, but you can minimize it to avoid conflict. Religious guilds are fine, most people are religious in some way or another and want to play with people who are like that. Guilds like that don't cause a lot of controversy throughout the community. Religion isn't usually thought of as negative either. GLBT is the opposite, lots of controversy. Hence them not allowing it. They also banned a guild from being the "LOLacaust". Nobody reported it but it was banned...why? Controversial and mostly offensive to people.

double standard ..Blizzard recognised that and now made it against the rules to recruit based on religion as well

 

[Pajari]

...yet you dont have a problem with guilds that are set up that are "christian friendly" or "family friendly"? ..it's just the gheys that you object to?

Can't speak for him, but I've got a problem with all guilds that seek to bring real-world issues and organizations into a fantasy world. Blizzard has every right to get rid of a Christian guild as well as 'gay-friendly' guild. Separation of church & server is an explicit right guaranteed by the constitution, amirite?

 

[CptStern]

Can't speak for him, but I've got a problem with all guilds that seek to bring real-world issues and organizations into a fantasy world. Blizzard has every right to get rid of a Christian guild as well as 'gay-friendly' guild.

you're mistaken, it's not about whether having a gay positive guild is against the rules but rather that recruiting for a gay positive guild in open chat is against the rules ..blizzard doesnt stop them from creating whatever exclusive guild they want ..they cited her for recruiting in open chat

no other group has ever been penalized for recruiting for a specific group, and since this incident Blizzard has announced that ALL recruiting based on gender/sex/political affiliation/religion would be banned

Separation of church & server is an explicit right guaranteed by the constitution, amirite?

if only that were true ...but no

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Frankly, Blizzard has made a big mistake here.

If I ran the system, the insulters would be strongly regulated, not the potential 'victims'.

I think we can all agree that the "OMG GHEY" people are the ones who should be made to shut up.

In stead there's this dumb policy, which is like pushing a guy off a building in order to prevent him from being shot by a murderer.

It is a way of helping someone, but there are obviously several much smarter ways.