What makes a good mod?

[Dile]

I'd really like to know what you guys/girls think about it.:cheers:

 

[dawdler]

Feel and fun, and that is all. Models help, as do fancy effects, but it doesnt make a good mod.

It all depends on the eye of the beholder though. Some think models and texture is all that matters, everything else is in the backseat and not as important. Some think the exact opposite, and some are in between.
I for one dont care about models. I still think Daggerfall is by far one of the best games ever, no game come even close to date (not even Morrowind)

 

[The Dark Elf]

daggerfall was/is a brilliant game, i've never completed it and to this day i'll keep going back to it. I think in total I've only explored about 10% at most of the entire game world, there's tons of stuff I've yet to discover (done my best to avoid any sort of walkthrough for it) I think nighttime in the captial is one of the scarier moments in video games, veeeengeeence lol so cool, crapped myself almost the first time that happened (hadn't read the manual first so wasn't expecting it), but damn those ghosts are sneaky!

 

[dawdler]

Originally posted by Fenric1138
daggerfall was/is a brilliant game, i've never completed it and to this day i'll keep going back to it. I think in total I've only explored about 10% at most of the entire game world, there's tons of stuff I've yet to discover (done my best to avoid any sort of walkthrough for it) I think nighttime in the captial is one of the scarier moments in video games, veeeengeeence lol so cool, crapped myself almost the first time that happened (hadn't read the manual first so wasn't expecting it), but damn those ghosts are sneaky!

Dont forget the most famous word in gaming history...

HALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALT (repeated endlessly as 100 guards are after you because you murdered someone)

 

[The Dark Elf]

Originally posted by dawdler
Dont forget the most famous word in gaming history...

HALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALTHALT (repeated endlessly as 100 guards are after you because you murdered someone)

lmao! that made me laugh, perfect impression Those guards were buggers, especially when they'd follow you into your house after you got caught stealing from the local store and you had to do a runner to escape them, chasing round shelves before getting out (finding the proper door always got me ha) get to your home and they follow you in and get stuck in the stairway.. or when the ones on horseback would follow you into a house haha..

But for all its bugs its still hugely playable. If only it had been multiplayer, hundreds of real players dotted around the world. Making their own guilds and meeting up in their homes in secret like the theives guild. Or you could be wandering through the wilderness and spot a team of wizards getting ready to pillage a nearby village. That would have been so cool.. I just hope if they ever remake it they do it right and don't change too much. Can you imagine it in the source engine?

Used to be fun just traveling in the wilderness without using the fast travel feature. I'd sometimes happen upon well hidden dungeons or covens, and plenty of monsters. Bugger to try do that without a horse though, would take forever heheh

 

[dawdler]

Yeah, but there we come back to an issue:
If you do it in Source, would it still possess the 'charm' it has? (in lack of better words). Or would everything be overly complicated? That's what Morrowind did wrong, they went on the most badass engine ever imaginable (still unsurpassed, NO engine around can push as many polys on the screen). They lost the fun in it, the base of gameplay (doesnt matter if its a mod or game). Daggerfall did actually scare me in those dark caverns (which where so huge, I never thought I'd get out). It felt like Halflife, once you got in, you had to literally fight your way back. Morrowind is very pretty, and quite large, but it lost the grandness. Its hard to describe, but anyone that have played both games understand what I mean.

So as another related issue: What would have made Morrowind better?Still doesnt matter if its a mod or game! The question that's flying behind it is still 'what makes a game/mod good'. This is an example.

The biggest thing, one have to make a choice: Large and less detailed, or small and more detailed. Keeping up large and more detail is 99% of the time a loss. Morrowind is a perfect example of this. Sure they went for large terrain, huge infact. But many of the actual gameplay hotspots, the caves, dungeons and cities, are too small and loose in quality (some are big however, but its quite few). They could easily have halved the worldsize. 1/4th. And concentrated on the actual 'levels' of the game.

Daggerfall made it easy for itself, with randomly generated dungeons. Sure, they werent pretty. But they could take a LONG time to go in, get item and get out.

The second big thing is detail: One have to keep it intriguing to play. Fun really. Morrowind simplified this to a simple see-enemy-smash-enemy game. Was it a good choice? Nope. On the other end, Neverwinter Nights do that part fairly well (it lacks in other things). How could one improve? The little things! The tiniest thing could have helped. Ambient sounds (its a mod for Morrowind, increases gaming experience 100x) should have been there. Advanced combat moves (dodging, backstab, knockout (not the stupid hit-to-stamina-low), fencing, etc). More things, such as ambient wildlife. A cat walking down the street would have been great! It would make you go "cool, animals BESIDE monsters and giant crabs live here?!". People talking to each other (AI basicly, seriously lacking Morrowind). Stuff like birds taking of from trees. The massive travel animals actually moving around. Ships roaming the seas. Horses and carts travelling between cities. Stuff that should have been created before even considering making a continent the size of a 1:1 real life city.


This is what would have made the game great. If Morrowind would have been a mod, it would also have made the mod great

Btw, travelling across Daggerfall on foot roughly takes a week. Realtime

 

[The Dark Elf]

Originally posted by dawdler
Yeah, but there we come back to an issue:
If you do it in Source, would it still possess the 'charm' it has? (in lack of better words). Or would everything be overly complicated? That's what Morrowind did wrong, they went on the most badass engine ever imaginable (still unsurpassed, NO engine around can push as many polys on the screen). They lost the fun in it, the base of gameplay (doesnt matter if its a mod or game). Daggerfall did actually scare me in those dark caverns (which where so huge, I never thought I'd get out). It felt like Halflife, once you got in, you had to literally fight your way back. Morrowind is very pretty, and quite large, but it lost the grandness. Its hard to describe, but anyone that have played both games understand what I mean.

Some of those dungeons did my nut in. Even with the map it could be days or weeks before I found the exit again! lol. As you say, it was that "realism" to it that helped make it great, dungeons aren't meant to be easy to get out of, and they certainly weren't easy haha. I actually sometimes found myself doing a paper trail, leaving objects so I could find my way out again, never had to do that in another game before or since. They were very scary at times too. Those sounds and hearing creatures but having no idea where they were. The doors creaking got me a lot too, it wasn't fun knowing your enemy could happily wander the dungeons just like you, no fair haha.

I'm sure if it was done well, with care and attention to the little details, a Source engine mod of Daggerfall could work nicely.. I'll go into it further down...

[So as another related issue: What would have made Morrowind better?Still doesnt matter if its a mod or game! The question that's flying behind it is still 'what makes a game/mod good'. This is an example.

Atmosphere. Pure and simple. Monsters and fighting is easy. But making a world that has you really believe in it is whats important. Do that and then it helps create itself. I strongly believe it could be done, if it had people involved who cared about the world first and the fighting later. Daggerfall was interesting even if you were wandering the wilderness, cause you just didn't know what you'd come across.. and the fact time moved on in the game I think helped a lot. Many a time I'd not want to "cheat" with fast travel and try get to the next town before night time, or I'd setup camp and wake up to realise it was after midnight and I'd hear screeching in the distance and be frantically sorting out some spell to protect me, wandering through the darkness trying to find whats out there in the forest only to almost walk into the creature, find im out matched so turn to run and find its got its friends with it, or a couple of poisonous spiders coming at me fast. Then there's the feeling of safety almost as night turns to early morning, all night you've been trying to avoid getting killed, couldn't camp because "there are enemies nearby" but you see the sun slowly coming up so you know you'll be relativly safe soon. You can still hear creatures in the distance but their getting further away now. The lights coming up, and then you see the screen jerk a little, which happens if you move into a new type of area like a town or something. So you keep running on... ahead a small village, the recognisable sound of a cats meow and up ahead a tavern, Safe at last Now thats atmosphere, and the cause of many a wasted day/week/month lol.

[The biggest thing, one have to make a choice: Large and less detailed, or small and more detailed. Keeping up large and more detail is 99% of the time a loss. Morrowind is a perfect example of this. Sure they went for large terrain, huge infact. But many of the actual gameplay hotspots, the caves, dungeons and cities, are too small and loose in quality (some are big however, but its quite few). They could easily have halved the worldsize. 1/4th. And concentrated on the actual 'levels' of the game.

I reckon in the Source engine, there would be a way to build the world as a grid system. Say 32x32 as a tiny example. Each grid would have exits on either side that moves onto another map. Using the transition/landmark thing, and making use of a fog effect you could have each map join seamlessly, apart from the bit where it'll say loading.. But I'm sure that could be changed to say something else. so you could have tons of terrain to explore. Many of the grid squares (individual maps) could be reused, slightly changed and make new ones. Special area's like towns, villages, castle ruins etc. could be made on their own and added into the grid where you want them. Make them as large or small as you'd want. The larger castles and buildings would make use of different maps when you enter them. Allowing for basically any size interior. And with the tricks the source engine is supposedly capable of you could even have exterior views from inside if you wanted, further adding to the atmosphere of it. As for dungeons. There _must_ be a way to have a random dungeon map selected upon entering a dungeon. Or even build a different one each time. Those dungeons that would be part of a quest would likely need to be a set dungeon, so the required quest object would be where its supposed to be... But even then I'm sure there would be a way to have that object appear in a random location every time, like some of the quest objects in Daggerfall were (an annoying feature I thought at first, but it made replaying the same quests more fun i think)

Then of course the source engine allows for vehicles. Now I don't know exactly what they mean by vehicles. Will it allow flying machines, I guess we don't know for sure.. But perhaps it could be quite possible to have horses, or other strange creatures that could be used to travel the landscape quicker. Change the animation of wheels turning to legs moving, the sound of an engine to the sound of galloping or something.. Need a bit of work but I dont' see why it couldn't be done. Imagine some of those morrowind traveling creatures moving about for real heh

 

[The Dark Elf]

[Daggerfall made it easy for itself, with randomly generated dungeons. Sure, they werent pretty. But they could take a LONG time to go in, get item and get out.

Yeah.. I suppose a way to make so many interesting dungeons, if doing it in the source engine. Wouldn't be to build each one from scratch. But perhaps build up a large library of prefabs and props to use in them, like lengths of corridors and different kinds of rooms. Then put those together in interesting designs, add the creatures and the tresure and stuff, throw in some custom traps and things. It could make for building so many dungeons easier, since I don't think the source engine will be able to handle completely randomly built dungeons on the fly (a huge shame though cause that would be brilliant!)

Imagine some of the dungeons that could be created. Those huge halls in the daggerfall dungeons. The small cramped corridors, cobwebs and stuff dotted about. Every one of them I always thought could tell a story, one would have a large ancient hall surrounded by pillars and a throne at one end. and I'd wonder what might have been there before. I reckon atmospheric dungeons put together with prefabs and all beautifully (and carefully) lit and decorated would work great. With Gabe saying the maps can now be far far bigger than HL1. and since the engine only spends time calculating what you see and not everything in a map. The possibilities of absolutely massive dungeons that litterally could take weeks to get out of could be possible. And it would be great fun to build them too, I mean, there wouldn't be any worries about people wanting to do sometihng one way and not getting their way would there. Cause pretty much any and all dungeon idea's could be used. Could even have different library of prefabs for different style dungeons. Maybe the ones in the south would look differently, being more desert than lush forests above. So the stone work would be different, maybe more ornimental with almost egyptian like statues. The dungeons in the high hills would be made of stronger rock and look more like caves.. perhaps the perfect place for a almighty dragon to reside.. and what if you do find a dragon, you run like hell out of the exit, but thanks to that transition effect, the damn dragon follows you and takes off just above you as you duck out of its way, stood up there on the side of a huge mountain looking down on the rocks and land below as it fades into the distance fog and this dragon soaring up and turning ready to attack you... hehe you can tell I'm getting into this lol

[The second big thing is detail: One have to keep it intriguing to play. Fun really. Morrowind simplified this to a simple see-enemy-smash-enemy game. Was it a good choice? Nope. On the other end, Neverwinter Nights do that part fairly well (it lacks in other things). How could one improve? The little things! The tiniest thing could have helped. Ambient sounds (its a mod for Morrowind, increases gaming experience 100x) should have been there. Advanced combat moves (dodging, backstab, knockout (not the stupid hit-to-stamina-low), fencing, etc). More things, such as ambient wildlife. A cat walking down the street would have been great! It would make you go "cool, animals BESIDE monsters and giant crabs live here?!". People talking to each other (AI basicly, seriously lacking Morrowind). Stuff like birds taking of from trees. The massive travel animals actually moving around. Ships roaming the seas. Horses and carts travelling between cities. Stuff that should have been created before even considering making a continent the size of a 1:1 real life city.

Yeah details would be everything. If it could be made so its already tons of fun without any monsters included at that point, then its well on its way. Deffinately other wildlife knocking about the world, cats, dogs, dogs chasing the cats. Horses, cows, birds, other creatures that aren't harmful in the wilderness.. perhaps you could even kill them and use them for food. Go hunting for dear, kill one then cook it (ok kill one, pick it up with a manipulator type thing, like a hand maybe lol then put it on a fire) That could be like, health packs, which are silly and unrealistic. But having to actually hunt and find your own food would be cool. Maybe apples on tree's too. so if you chose to be a ranger and spend time out in the open, you'd have to behave like one too. But back in the towns and villages you could go to taverns and order food or drink. The AI I'm sure could be extended to make useful characters in the world. Some of course more useful than others who'd just wander about. Maybe kids who'd be playing in the streets and shout names at you. Shopkeeps with personalities always trying to sell you crap you know you don't need hehe. Big jovial Landlords with red noses and always cheerful. And if you kill them then things happen. even HL1 had options for events triggered if you did something. So you could easily have a return of the good old HALTHALTHALT lol! if you killed an innocent person. There was also that option in HL1 where you could keep the map you just left in the same way you left it if you returned. So if you kill someone, their dead and don't suddenly come back to life, actions will have repercussions. Become a criminal in one town and you remain one if you leave and come back. Not to mention the guards or even the general public wouldn't have to just leave it there. Perhaps if you kill certain people or enough people, they will come after you, and if your not fast enough maybe they'll chase you down forever lol

[This is what would have made the game great. If Morrowind would have been a mod, it would also have made the mod great

hehehe

[Btw, travelling across Daggerfall on foot roughly takes a week. Realtime

hehe yeah. I've never yet gone from the north to the deep south on foot, or horse for that matter. I think the furthest would have been about half or a quater way across the starting territory where daggerfall is located. Just that one area alone is the size of most games. I did used to travel to the south (fast travel) pull bank jobs (loans) and then bugger off back to the north to spend it though

i can't believe i exceeded the maximum length in a message haha

 

[The Dark Elf]

I should add that the above idea's probably wouldn't work fully for multiplayer, just single player, though would have a chance of working as a co-op game. But the group would likely have to stick together. But then isn't that usually the case with games that involve groups.. a co-op would also open things up for many different classes and full roleplaying experience.

 

[theGreenBunny]

This thread makes me want to play Daggerfall.

By the way Fenric, such a mod would take either a huge team or a huge amount of time You're essentially building a whole new game: new game mechanics, AI, models, textures, lots and lots of maps, sounds (including speech), large amounts of writing if you want to evade MW-like NPCs... It would take years...

 

[The Dark Elf]

Originally posted by theGreenBunny
This thread makes me want to play Daggerfall.

By the way Fenric, such a mod would take either a huge team or a huge amount of time You're essentially building a whole new game: new game mechanics, AI, models, textures, lots and lots of maps, sounds (including speech), large amounts of writing if you want to evade MW-like NPCs... It would take years...

heh yeah same here, I think I'll install it in a bit

That just makes me want to do it even more! , seriously, the time when such a large project would scare me off is long gone. Something this big I'd consider a lot of fun, and im sat here now seriously considering putting my previously planned mod on hold (which would have been big, but not as big as this) and doing this one instead. Not using the Daggerfall story but instead coming up with a new one, avoiding copyright issues and doing it right. I've skills in all area's except coding. Far from put off with getting my hands dirty, mind is racing right now with idea's of what could be done.... damn this could be cool haha

 

[phantomdesign]

Hmmmmm.....maybe another game that will waste 900 hours of my tiem...sounds cool.

 

[James Isaac]

Something different that is addictive, and fun.

 

[dawdler]

Originally posted by James Isaac
Something different that is addictive, and fun.

Those two things are kind of the same when it comes to gaming. If you find it addictive, then most likely its fun, and if its fun, you will find it addictive

 

[Incitatus]

Well I guess I'm of the other school then. A good mod is one that is realistic and looks great, then it'll automatically be fun. Some kind of abstract 'fun factor' is an illusion, realism and visuals the keys to immersion.

:afro:

 

[simmo]

hmmm...this dagger fall sounds awsome

EDIT: found a pic http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/zones/reviews/pc/jan97/daggr04.gif

 

[The Dark Elf]

Originally posted by simmo
hmmm...this dagger fall sounds awsome

EDIT: found a pic http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/zones/reviews/pc/jan97/daggr04.gif

thats the one. I admit to look at it doesn't look very pretty in some parts (outside it looks great though ), especially these days, but to play it is quite something, really does draw you into it. Like HL1 i guess, both old but both still doing well

actually that prompted me to hunt down the demo if anyone wants to try it out.. There was a couple, one was just a rolling demo that showed off what it could do, the other was playable to a point, apologies if these are only links to the rolling demo

http://www.fileshack.com/file.x?fid=1008

http://www.gamesdomain.com/demos/demo/238.html

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/6656/
plenty of good stuff on this one along with the latest demo. Dawdler: some useful utils here too

 

[dawdler]

Originally posted by simmo
hmmm...this dagger fall sounds awsome

EDIT: found a pic http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/zones/reviews/pc/jan97/daggr04.gif

It looks better than that ingame (just as any old game does)
It still has the most beatifull day/night transition ever next to Morrowind. And that's quite a feat considering its old graphics, hehe. Its one of those things one always remember...

Well I guess I'm of the other school then. A good mod is one that is realistic and looks great, then it'll automatically be fun. Some kind of abstract 'fun factor' is an illusion, realism and visuals the keys to immersion.

Well, we are talking general 'good', so I dissagree on that. For example, Daggerfall here in the thread is as far from realism as it get, and its one of the best games ever (and that's not just what we in the thread thinks, I've seen it been voted as that by several magazines). But of course, everyone has there own taste, I'm sure there are people who hate Daggerfall
Its just that when it comes to the coming to a conclusion on "What makes a good mod", we have look at the whole picture, and why games are good in the first place. Realism and visuals is a very very very very small part of this. I wont dissagree that immersion is a key factor, but not that realism and visuals are the way to achieve it.

Which is the absolute 'best' game of these: HalfLife or Max Payne 2? Ignore all the differences, and just think on it (note, one have to consider it, 'more realistic', not 'realistic'. No game have reached this anyway). With your way of thinking, one would fast reach a conclusion: MP2 PWNZ HalfLife!!!!!! Now, is there anyone on this forum that would agree?

 

[Incitatus]

Exactly you prove my point. Everyone knows that Max Payne 2 is far more enjoyable to play today, it is simply far more advanced in every way. the reason HL1 was so amazing is that it was so far ahead of it's time in visuals, realistic feel (walk speed, things crashing in around you) and immersion (this is were hl1 shines beyond believe). And that is why it is still so well respected.

If you ask the average gamer now which they would rather play I doubt very much you'd find ANYONE that would choose half life 1 over Max Payne 2.

To put it simpler, if your compare hl1 to ir's contemporaries and max payne 2 to todays games, hl1 would come out on top. But if you compare hl1 to Max Payne 2 there is absolutely no comparison, simply because of the years between the respective developements.

:afro:

 

[dawdler]

Originally posted by Incitatus
the reason HL1 was so amazing is that it was so far ahead of it's time in visuals, realistic feel (walk speed, things crashing in around you) and immersion (this is were hl1 shines beyond believe). And that is why it is still so well respected.

Far ahead in visuals? On the contrary, it was using dated graphics on a dated graphics engine. They did alot of what they had (Comparing Quake3 to EF2 doesnt even come close to what HL did with the Quake engine), but it was not 'far ahead'.

And of course MP2 is more enjoyable to play today. I have played through HL, I havent played MP2
I see that its more or less pointless to argue, as I cant understand why you cant understand it, and I wont budge

A fun note:
On our lan party yesterday, we got a bit nostalgic, and ran a few snes games in multiplayer. Super Street Fighter 2 was the biggest, we had a laugh trying to beat each other. Now, I aint very well versed in fighting game (lost horribly most of the time), but I remember one of my earliest games on the PC was another fighting game, in full 3D! It had cool creatures, a mantis and robots and other crap. Now, if I compare that to SSF2, it pales... It was boring in comparison, totally without depth. Despite being in 3D. The older game won the day. There are many other such comparison I can make. Civ2 owned CTP when it came out. Xcom: TFTD still beats the crap out of Aftermath. Neverwinter Nights is just poor compared to Baldurs Gate 2. There still havent been any Star Wars game matching up to Tie Fighter, despite so many upgrades.

 

[Incitatus]

Don't get me wrong I love vintage games. My alltime favorite games is the old 2d adventure 'Full Throttle' I still have it on CD, I play it now and again. I also love the Kyrandia series

and I do understand your point, it's just wrong

:afro:

 

[The Dark Elf]

dawdler, I can't remember the name now but I think I know the game you mean, if its the same one I don't think many liked it It was pretty much my first "decent" PC game, so I think I only put up with it really . The mantis rings a bell so its probably the same, there was a sequel to it right?

and don't tell me your a fan of BG2 aswell? hehe its ok I promise not to come up with a solution on how to do that in the source engine, i swear


Incitatus, out of interest, how old are you? Age probably makes a difference to how people see the older games. Those mature enough to appreciate stuff a few years ago can see how it would stand out as something cool. MP2 might look good but when compared to other games like it, is just another game. HL stood out against its peers. Update the visuals and re-release it in the Source engine and it would beat the current run aswell, maybe even beating its own sequel, who knows. IMO.

 

[Incitatus]

21

Again I do apreciate older games, in fact the old 2d advetures have stories and humor that can't be equaled. But just due to the technology now available it is much easier to make a more immersive/more interesting game.

:afro:

 

[OCybrManO]

More realistic and more fun are two completely different aspects of a game.


Take the entire Rainbow Six series vs CS:
CS was a lot less realistic, but it was fun and it felt good (because of the HL engine's feel)... and this made it have probably more players than the whole R6 series combined.


Why is Shigeru Miyamoto considered to be perhaps the best game developer ever when he hasn't even tried to make a realistic game?
... because his games are all fun.

The first thing he does is try to design gameplay is unique and fun, then they build the graphics, story, characters, etc. around the gameplay.

How can you doubt this method with all the success he has had with it?


Graphics help but they don't make the game...