What source DOESNT have.

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jayte

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I remember someone asking (on this or other forum) about what is there beyond source. I think its my duty to clarify. Im a pre grad in computer science, and have read some mechanics. So just take my word for it, (or dont, but read anyway). :cool:

5 years ago, ( think HL1 ) games, didnt have any dynamics. (Sure some moveable barrels but no real life mechanics.) Today, most games do, (halo, BF1942, HL2) BUT no games have solid mechanics, (ie, a treory how different stuff brakes). IE, in BF1942 if you blow up a jeep, (with tnt) it will end up on the other side of the map, but we know that thats not real, a real jeep would tare itseld in small tiny pieces, but thats because todays CPUs are not powerful enougth to simulate forces within solids. The computer asumes that solid metal is unbendable, or even unbrakable. So if you as me, I'd give the game industry about another 5 years to do that.

Now whats beyond that? Well, to get really real har, clothing you need fluid dynamics. And thats a tough one. Today we use super or cluster computing to calculate how air or fluids move, and it takes ages to do that. When we can do that 60 times a second (fps) we really can simulate real physics.

There are shortcuts!
IE the ropes/cables in HL2 (read in e-mails from valve) are not fully simulated, but give the illusion of beeing it. it uses 5-10 springs instead, with joints in between. and then, i think, the engine basicly interpolates a second or third degeree curve trough the joint points. Clever aint it? and does not require fluid dynamics or solid mechanics. So basicly everything in games are aproximations but even those require CPU power. So I'd say HL 4-5 then we'll see really impressive (maybe FF movie graphics) and real life physics.
:bounce:
Can't wait, can you?:cool:
 
Forget HL2 i'm waiting for clothes that move properly!!!!!!!!!
 
Originally posted by Wesisapie
Forget HL2 i'm waiting for clothes that move properly!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

lol :)

well u never know, source maybe capable of this, its just not used in HL2 as we dont have the hardware to run it.

SD
 
Wesisapie,
but remember, reallity is no fun, you cant jump down 30 meters and continue shooting rockets at mates. =)
 
Forget rockets!!! I want clothes that move properly!

Wait i'm wearing some. OMG THEY WERE ONLY 10 BUCKS BARGAIN

And they'll only be out of date in like 5 years!
 
You know when i come to think of it, clothes wouldnt be that difficult to emulate either, take the springs idea, but make i web like this:
*--*--*--*--*
*--*--*--*--*
*--*--*--*--*
*--*--*--*--*
*--*--*--*--*
*--*--*--*--*

And then take the joints and interpolate a plane over these joint points, but its still many calculations... :flame:
But it could be done.
 
one problem is still people who have robes on or fill length trench coats, how the hell do you animate the legs without it looking lame!! when this is manages i will be happy.
 
You animate the robe/coat to match the feets movement @_@ ?
 
Could be done, just apply force from the feet to the joints...
 
jayte, most gamers don't care if physics are real or fake. Whats important is that they look and feel real. No matter if its done by taking into account the positions of every atom in the scene, or by a simple random number generator. Simulating physics completely is for the scientific community not gamers. This is why I feel even in 5 years game engines would not be like you said. And the car exploding example is kinda silly, when as a programmer/level designer I know that implementing a car object that breaks apart into peices rather than flying across the map is relativly simple to simulate without any complex physics engine. Thats why games have 'scripted sequences'. Even without scripted seq's I could still get reasonable close to the effect and even dynamicaly. Also, don't forget the Source engine in its definition can do nearly anything being limited by the coders rather than the engine itself.
 
And jayte , it is then my duty to inform you of that
when people wait to long(scientific proved) you start thinking of
what could be more great and then you start to think that the thing you really are looking forward to, actually, becomes more and more sucky...
 
Newtonian physics are so passe. I hope the gaming industry doesn't drag their feet implementing quantum dynamics in the next Deer Hunter game.

Still, it's nice to see a video game that will finally make better use of physics than Carmageddon did five years ago.
 
High five, Wesisapie. I'm hoping some sort of Carmageddon mod makes it to Source
:cheers:
Carmageddon multiplayer (Fox and Hounds!) was even more fun than single player, and I spent years playing Carmageddon single player. I've probably played Carmageddon more than any other game. The original Carmageddon vehicle physics can't be beat for fun factor.
 
I think the game industry is way too whacked out an fluid to really be able to predict it. Who knows where we're going next? Would you have said HL2 five years ago?
 
That Source based Vampire game has a cloth engine apparently.
 
One thing that no game has yet is dynamic sound. All sound in all games so far is recorded and then triggered.

If you could make an enging that would interpret interactions between objects and then formulate a sound for it instead of playing a recorded one, that would be cool.
 
Belisarius: i made a post about that somewhere... if you search the archives :)
 
Originally posted by jayte
... So if you as me, I'd give the game industry about another 5 years to do that...


...IE the ropes/cables in HL2 (read in e-mails from valve) are not fully simulated, but give the illusion of beeing it. .... So basicly everything in games are aproximations but even those require CPU power. ....
Click to expand...

With all that expensive education, one would think they would teach proper spelling and grammer. :eek:

j/k :cheese:

I think the physics in HL2 will be absolutely first rate. Not a game or engine out there has successfully implemented such physics, and judging from the videos and interviews, Valve is going to lead the way with an open door for developers to walk through.

Five years from now we'll be saying, "What the Sourcex5 engine DOESN'T have". And they will be issues that we're probabely not cabable of grasping in game development yet.
 
"With all that expensive education, one would think they would teach proper spelling and grammer."

If you're gonna make fun of his spelling, at least make sure yours is ok.

In case you're still wondering, it's "grammar".
 
Games in my mind are still in its developmental stages. Think about it if games now were compared with the progress of movies, games would probably be equall with the movies made in the 1950's. Point being, games still have a long way to go and were still finding out what works in games, and what doesn't.

There still may be many limitations to the source engine if you are looking into the future but think of it as this...We as a gaming community have had shit games for the past couple of years...developers are throwing crap at us and expecting for us to buy it. Face it, the best FPS we have ever played for this year was Return to Castle Wolfenstein...and i didn't even really like that game. Valve has made a big step for the gamming world by looking at the big picture and saying, "Look at the crap were feeding to these boys...it's time to start going somewhere." And by god their doing it a second time...bless those souls.
 
Originally posted by Wesisapie
"With all that expensive education, one would think they would teach proper spelling and grammer."

If you're gonna make fun of his spelling, at least make sure yours is ok.

In case you're still wondering, it's "grammar".
Click to expand...

Maybe you missed this?:

Originally posted by nbk-brando
j/k :cheese:
Click to expand...

Regardless, if you really want to delve into this issue, try reading his post again. My one spelling error is really incomparable. :rolleyes:

Sorry for the hijack, guys. Back to the discussion! :)
 
Isn't Wolfenstein approaching two years old?
That and I think we've gotten some good stuff with games like NOLF2 and BF1942. They're few and far between, but so are most good things.
And I completely agree with the comment about how games are currently the movies of the fifties.
"It Came From Beyong The Moon!"
 
One thing that no game has yet is dynamic sound. All sound in all games so far is recorded and then triggered.
Click to expand...

Deus Ex 2 (and probably thief 3) are gonna have dynamic sound, at least a first, raw version of it. Meaning the sound depends on the material and the physical situation (force of the materials that collide for example) triggering the sound, which is then dynamically created.


And btw, SCI has announced that theres probably going to be a Carmageddon IV :bounce: !
The first two carmageddons were absolutely fantastic. too bad the third one missed the great damage model of the second Carmageddon (I think that one was actually truely dynamic and real-time, was it?).
And didn't carmageddon 2 actually have a ragdoll effect for the pedestrians? 'Cus they really reacted differently and very fluently to other objects (you could drag them in front of you, and has anyone ever tried to push them on an explosive barrel?)
 
4-5 years?
I'd say its 4-5 years before CG becomes realistic, let alone video games...High end 3-D applications cant even properly simulate fluids or clothing...let alone in real time, let alone on its own with out any assitting animation or clean up. Just rendering fluids takes mass amounts of CPU power, simulating it physically and dynamically and rendering all that on the fly?

The simulation of the cables could easily be applied to hair...with a single cable controling several "hairs". But we are years before seeing a consumer end CPU that can simulate that in a game situation. But it will be nice to one day have long flowing hair that is not a big block.

Cloth....realistic cloth wont be possible until 1. All current clipping issues in games are resolved...and from the looks of it, even this next generation of games cant cut out clipping entirely. Take how ugly clipping is now, throw a body moving around under a thin peice of cloth and multiply the clipping problems by ten. 2. Poly budget per charecter will need to be in the mid to high tens of thousands. Mostly because fluid movement would require hundreds of subdividions something as simple as a bandana...wich is just a simple flat cube that would normally be 12 tris...but to flow properly needs to be 1200 tris... and even with all those issues worked out, it still needs to be in real time.

Besides theres alot further for games to go. I doubt well see the end until games are a full sensory experience...and basically whatever the user wants it to be.
 
Originally posted by Direwolf
Isn't Wolfenstein approaching two years old?
That and I think we've gotten some good stuff with games like NOLF2 and BF1942. They're few and far between, but so are most good things.
And I completely agree with the comment about how games are currently the movies of the fifties.
"It Came From Beyong The Moon!"
Click to expand...

With that said...has anyone played "I was an atomic mutant!" ?
Damn fun game for its $20 price tag. No storyline, no ending, just stop on the lil civillians as the 50 ft woman, a giant lizard, a giant Alien brain etc. FUN FUN FUN!!! :p :)
 
(ie, a treory how different stuff brakes). IE, in BF1942 if you blow up a jeep, (with tnt) it will end up on the other side of the map


that made me smile
 
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