What the hell is with declaring war on things like "terror" and "drugs"

[dart321]

Liberty and justice for all, man. Freedom of choice. Why do we allow handguns when we know they're used to kill people? Why do we let food companies make snacks high in sugar and saturated fat when we know that people can, and will, abuse them, to the point of death? Cigarettes are HIGHLY addictive, but they're legal.

We cant make the whole world out of nerf. We cant cater to the lowest denominator. And if we legalized, we could do a much better job of educating.

Guns can be used in self-defense, snacks are food which we as humans need to live, cigarettes are indeed HIGHLY addictive but don't distort ones sense of reality in any way unlike other drugs.

Why do we need to make this legal to educate? Thats like saying we should start a war to prevent wars.

 

[f|uke]

Guns can be used in self-defense

Drugs can be used to self medicate

snacks are food which we as humans need to live

Humans need carbohydrates, protiens, fat, vitamins and minerals. Not twinkies and doritos

cigarettes are indeed HIGHLY addictive but don't distort ones sense of reality in any way unlike other drugs.

Cigarettes do distort your sense of reality. They give you a rush, and then make you think you need cigarettes. Reality is subjective, and highly influenced by chemicals anyways. Endorphins and adrenalin, for example, will change your sense of reality.

Why do we need to make this legal to educate?

I'm really not sure about this myself. All I know is that we're not doing it now. We tell kids that drugs are bad, without giving them any real facts. Its like telling teenagers to abstain and leaving it at that. Its not going to work until we get real.

 

[Reaktor4]

Which is....?

Well theres a hell of a lot i could say to that. I think i should just give you a basic outline of things:
Pure heroin (diacetylmorphine/diamorphine) does zero permanent physical damage to the user.
Street heroin is sold to users at vastly inflated prices, compared to what it would cost if sold legally. This is the reason why people are forced into crime to pay for the drug. People arent gonna rob houses if their habit costs £5 a day, however the way things are now it can cost over £150 a day.
Criminal gangs make most of their money from selling illegal drugs.
These illegal drugs are usually mixed with all sorts of crap that maximises harm to the user, and profit to the dealer.
Accidental overdoses can happen because people dont know how strong the drug theyre taking is. However, with steet heroin this is still fairly rare, as heroin itself is definitely not easy to fatally overdose on. A heroin overdose is, for example, not as dangerous as a paracetamol/acetaminophen overdose and that is sold over the counter in many places. Most of the 'fatal heroin overdoses' you hear about are actually deaths caused by dangerous contaminants in the drug, not the drug itself.
Addiction isnt necessarily a big problem in itself. If an addict is supplied with a clean, safe drug when needed, they will not have to endure withdrawal symptoms and can get on with their life, much like nicotine addicts.
According to an australian government survey, only 8% of male and 4% of female heroin users use the drug daily.
Addicts, or anyone else, currently arent given any proper education on how to use drugs safely from governments. In a legal environment this should include for example how to inject properly to avoid injury.
With the price of drugs being artificially inflated as i mentioned earlier, addicts must maximise the effect of the drug by injecting as opposed to smoking (for example), in order to avoid withdrawal symptoms as much as possible. With the state of the drugs sold on the street, injecting obviously leads to more physical harm to the user.
The average age of a heroin addict in holland is about 43 and rising. In the uk it is around 20 and falling. More tolerant countries have less drug users.

I think that about covers it.

 

[Reaktor4]

No, just news stories I've heard. Is it bogus?

It was retracted http://mdma.net/toxicity/retracted.html
They had injected huge amounts of methamphetamine instead of mdma, because "the wrong label was on the bottle"....
Of course, the original story got lots of media coverage, and the retraction, almost none. I can give countless examples of stuff like this happening. Please, dont trust the media AT ALL when it comes to this subject.

 

[qckbeam]

Humans need carbohydrates, protiens, fat, vitamins and minerals. Not twinkies and doritos

I beg to differ!!!

 

[Reaktor4]

Opium? Wow. I'm talking about heroin. Put in needle and inject into your body heroin.

Oh btw, all opiates are converted to morphine in the brain anyway.

 

[dart321]

Well theres a hell of a lot i could say to that. I think i should just give you a basic outline of things:
Pure heroin (diacetylmorphine/diamorphine) does zero permanent physical damage to the user.
Street heroin is sold to users at vastly inflated prices, compared to what it would cost if sold legally. This is the reason why people are forced into crime to pay for the drug. People arent gonna rob houses if their habit costs £5 a day, however the way things are now it can cost over £150 a day.
Criminal gangs make most of their money from selling illegal drugs.
These illegal drugs are usually mixed with all sorts of crap that maximises harm to the user, and profit to the dealer.
Accidental overdoses can happen because people dont know how strong the drug theyre taking is. However, with steet heroin this is still fairly rare, as heroin itself is definitely not easy to fatally overdose on. A heroin overdose is, for example, not as dangerous as a paracetamol/acetaminophen overdose and that is sold over the counter in many places. Most of the 'fatal heroin overdoses' you hear about are actually deaths caused by dangerous contaminants in the drug, not the drug itself.
Addiction isnt necessarily a big problem in itself. If an addict is supplied with a clean, safe drug when needed, they will not have to endure withdrawal symptoms and can get on with their life, much like nicotine addicts.
According to an australian government survey, only 8% of male and 4% of female heroin users use the drug daily.
Addicts, or anyone else, currently arent given any proper education on how to use drugs safely from governments. In a legal environment this should include for example how to inject properly to avoid injury.
With the price of drugs being artificially inflated as i mentioned earlier, addicts must maximise the effect of the drug by injecting as opposed to smoking (for example), in order to avoid withdrawal symptoms as much as possible. With the state of the drugs sold on the street, injecting obviously leads to more physical harm to the user.
The average age of a heroin addict in holland is about 43 and rising. In the uk it is around 20 and falling. More tolerant countries have less drug users.

I think that about covers it.

Probably because the drug users die in the tolerant countries. You're not going to seriously telling me that drugs are fine. They kill people. That statement alone is enough to dismiss all of your "facts" because ,in some form or another, its the truth.

I'm not saying this because I'm trying to be a good boy and follow what mommy told me when I was a kid. You're trying to defend a thing that deliberately causes harm to the human body, no matter how you spin it. By legalizing drugs we have done nothing but help these substances reach our children's hands even faster than they are already are. And why? For profit?

You cannot tell me that drugs do no harm. No matter how you try to spin it.

Opium is also in household foods such as poppy seeds on hamburger buns. Fine and great. What does that have to do with the legality of heroin? Bullets are made from steel you know?

 

[dart321]

Drugs can be used to self medicate. Humans need carbohydrates, protiens, fat, vitamins and minerals. Not twinkies and doritos. Cigarettes do distort your sense of reality. They give you a rush, and then make you think you need cigarettes. Reality is subjective, and highly influenced by chemicals anyways. Endorphins and adrenalin, for example, will change your sense of reality. I'm really not sure about this myself. All I know is that we're not doing it now. We tell kids that drugs are bad, without giving them any real facts. Its like telling teenagers to abstain and leaving it at that. Its not going to work until we get real.

Twinkies and doritoes contain proteins, fats, and carbohydrates. Cigarettes do not affect the mind so much as to affect you're actions in such a way you'd harm yourself or another (only in extreme circumstances).

We give kids facts. Proven facts. Drugs cause harm.

 

[f|uke]

Probably because the drug users die in the tolerant countries. You're not going to seriously telling me that drugs are fine. They kill people. That statement alone is enough to dismiss all of your "facts" because ,in some form or another, its the truth.

Other things that kill people:
Guns, knives, golf clubs, baseball bats, cars, the sun, pollution, too little exercise, too much exercise, poor diet, stress, crossing the street, rock climbing, bungie jumping, soccer, wild animals, electricity, swimming pools, stairs, showers, etc etc..

Not to mention other people.

Should we outlaw all that too?

People who smoke pot become passive. They're less likely to hurt anybody then they would be sober. Again, pot does not hurt the body. But you would never ever hear that in school. Instead we hear bs about "reefer madness".,. and kids like you buy what they're selling.

Which really, is fine. I certainly dont think you should do drugs. I just dont see how you think you could tell me I cant (not that it would work anyways)

 

[dart321]

Other things that kill people:
Guns, knives, golf clubs, baseball bats, cars, the sun, pollution, too little exercise, too much exercise, poor diet, stress, crossing the street, rock climbing, bungie jumping, soccer, wild animals, electricity, swimming pools, stairs, showers, etc etc..

Not to mention other people.

Should we outlaw all that too?

I can't willingly get addicted to any of those things now can I?

And pot is not that bad a drug IMO. If it's legalized, whateva.

 

[Steve]

next up: the war on moving traffic violations. it's serious stuff.

 

[Reaktor4]

Probably because the drug users die in the tolerant countries. You're not going to seriously telling me that drugs are fine. They kill people. That statement alone is enough to dismiss all of your "facts" because ,in some form or another, its the truth.

I'm not saying this because I'm trying to be a good boy and follow what mommy told me when I was a kid. You're trying to defend a thing that deliberately causes harm to the human body, no matter how you spin it. By legalizing drugs we have done nothing but help these substances reach our children's hands even faster than they are already are. And why? For profit?

You cannot tell me that drugs do no harm. No matter how you try to spin it.

Opium is also in household foods such as poppy seeds on hamburger buns. Fine and great. What does that have to do with the legality of heroin? Bullets are made from steel you know?

lol
Funny how the prohibitionists are never interested in a sensible argument. Fine, believe what you like. If youre going to do nothing but talk shit im not wasting my time with you.

 

[dart321]

lol
Funny how the prohibitionists are never interested in a sensible argument. Fine, believe what you like. If youre going to do nothing but talk shit im not wasting my time with you.

It would be nice if you pointed out what was not sensible in my argument so I could correct my errors as to not offend you so harshly instead of flat-out insulting me without a given reason. Why exactly am I talking shit now?

Bah, I've pushed this topic far off course. I'll quit.

I'm trying to push my point, not start a flame war.

 

[Reaktor4]

Your entire argument is illogical. I mean "Probably because the drug users die in the tolerant countries."?? This is uninformed bollocks based on nothing more than your imagination.
The "if we just save one life" argument is an unbelievable thing for a person who supports prohibition, the laws causing more harm, death and destruction than drugs alone could ever do, to say.

 

[dart321]

Your entire argument is illogical. I mean "Probably because the drug users die in the tolerant countries."?? This is uninformed bollocks based on nothing more than your imagination.
The "if we just save one life" argument is an unbelievable thing for a person who supports prohibition, the laws causing more harm, death and destruction than drugs alone could ever do, to say.

You think "probably because the drug users die in the tolerant countries" statement is the basis for my argument? It's just a small speculation man. Notice the word probably. You want to talk about "uninformed bollocks based on nothing more than your imagination"? What evidence do you have that prohibition is "the laws causing more harm, death and destruction than drugs alone could ever do"?

I'm dead tired. I'm going to bed.

 

[Reaktor4]

Did you actually read what i said and read the link i gave earlier?
The harm prohibition causes includes funding/creating gangs and dealers and maximising physical harm to the users and forcing them into crimes which they otherwise would not commit (not only that but it makes them criminals simply for choosing to use a drug which isnt legal). Most crime is related to illegal drugs in one way or another afaik.
Either way, it just does not work and does nobody any good despite what you have been brainwashed into thinking. Also who are you to tell me what i can put into my own body?
Why arent you campaigning for alcohol/nicotine/caffeine/food additives/crossing the road or anything else that has a remote chance of causing harm to be prohibited?
Like all you prohibitonists do you twist words trying to make it sound like im spinning facts, saying all drugs are great and cause absolutely no harm etc etc, because its way easier to argue with that than with what i actually said. Well its not gonna work with me.

 

[f|uke]

It would be nice if you pointed out what was not sensible in my argument.

hey kill people. That statement alone is enough to dismiss all of your "facts" because ,in some form or another, its the truth.

Thats totally irrational. Yes, drugs can kill, but that does not dismiss any scientific evidence about the real risks or dangers of drugs.

Oh, and btw,.

I can't willingly get addicted to any of those things now can I?

You can become addicted to anything. Just ask any psychologist. People get addicted to sex, eating, work, cleaning, sports, exercise, you name it. I, for one, am addicted to these stupid forums.

..and they might just be the death of me

 

[Hempster]

Interesting Topic. The drugwar is unwinnable and even more important: It´s counterproductive.
Watch this:

Penn & Teller´s Bullshit!
30min Video
"War on drugs"
http://www.pot-tv.net/archive/shows/pottvshowse-2705.html

 

[Reaktor4]

Thats totally irrational. Yes, drugs can kill, but that does not dismiss any scientific evidence about the real risks or dangers of drugs.

Isnt it just ironic that they use this as an argument (incidentally the argument is usually based on bullshit stories they read in the paper or whatever), even though clean drugs are many, many times safer than the contaminated crap that is being sold under prohibiton?
Wtf goes on in these peoples minds.

 

[Reaktor4]

Interesting Topic. The drugwar is unwinnable and even more important: It´s counterproductive.
Watch this:

Penn & Teller´s Bullshit!
30min Video
"War on drugs"
http://www.pot-tv.net/archive/shows/pottvshowse-2705.html

Shame they only have that available for realplayer

 

[Hempster]

Shame they only have that available for realplayer

Use Mediaplayer Classic.
It´s called "Real Alternative".
http://www.winfuture.de/news,17161.html
http://www.majorgeeks.com/download4094.html

 

[Reaktor4]

thank you

 

[K e r b e r o s]

These are things that dont go away.. they are constant struggles.. heres a definition of war off of webster

Firstly, are you against the stated wars? The war on terror, I've got enough reasons for. However, only two come to mind when we discuss the war on drugs:

*OMFG LIEK I DUN LIEK TEH POLICE DEHEY ARE SCARIE ND IM NO HURT NOBODIE *snort* SERIOUSLY LIEK, *snort*weeze* LIEK SEE I CAN QUIT WHEN I WANT TO I DONT PUT PEOPLE IN DANGER OMGZ I HATE TEH DRUG WAR BECUZ I"LL SAY ITS INEFFECTIVE CUZ I DONT WANT TO FEEL DOWN THAT TOMORROW MY HOUSE COULD BE RAIDED WITH A SEARCH WARRANT...BECAUSE I HAEV TEH LOTSA DRUGS AND I VIOLATE THE LAW WHEN I DO DRUGS THAT ARE ILLEGAL OMGZ I HATE LAW OMGZOMGZ...

and...

Well, If he's not hurting anybody then it is no point. Drug dealers? ^^ haha! No harm done at all. Its why they carry guns.

 

[hasan]

this is pathetic.
if you want to do drugs, whatever, do it. just don't preach it.
tell me that you harm nobody when you preach drugs.

 

[john121]

we should look at our past mistakes before we declare war on something. Look at the prohibition era, we outlawed alcohol and more underground breweries came up with even worse alcohol, mixing in poisons as well. The same has happened with drugs, compare them from the 60's and to the drugs of today. I'm not saying we should legalize them, because that would create more problems (unless we could put like a 500% tax on it, solve the national debt in 2 yrs LOL) j/k about the taxing, though...

 

[hasan]

no, the taxing is a good idea! lol, it's the only way to solve the debt problem that bush created.

 

[clarky003]

great point in that first post, nobody has really officially put it like that from what I can remember...

I know that using force and violence to try and erradicate terror (in the physical state) is like fighting fire with fire, and usually result's in plenty of anger, either displayed by killing people, or being pent up for years getting to further generations till it explodes.

to truely get rid of terrorist behaviour's, you have to goto the source... the physcological state that encourages that behaviour.