What's going on with reflections?

Mechagodzilla said:
the Gordon player model with greater detail, sync up the view models with it, and give it a way to mimic the eye positions and emotions of the player. All just so that you can look in a mirror.
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They managed it well enough for each and every other model. :rolleyes:
 
You are gordon, it takes you out of the game if you can see your reflection, you're no longer gordon, you're just controlling him now. i dont want to see the reflection. if they wanted you to feel like you were just controlling someone it would have been 3rd person like hitman or maxpayne
 
acme420 said:
You are gordon, it takes you out of the game if you can see your reflection, you're no longer gordon, you're just controlling him now. i dont want to see the reflection. if they wanted you to feel like you were just controlling someone it would have been 3rd person like hitman or maxpayne
Click to expand...

Ok...have we established this now then....
 
Varsity said:
They managed it well enough for each and every other model. :rolleyes:
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That's because you aren't controling the other guys.
Looking at their reflection is the same. They're both third-person views.

They'd have to make the view and world models sync up perfectly, and make a full set of very good animations for the player model that you mould otherwise never see.

In addition to that work, making a third-person reflection of a first-person view would require the ability for Gordon's eyes to move exactly where the players eyes are, and his emotions and facial movements, down to the smallest bit, would have to accurately reflect the player's own emotions.

The only way I can imagine valve could implement that is if the game came with a camera that would constantly record the player's accurate emotions.

And, as I said, that's a long ways off for a basically throwaway effect.
Anything less would look like DX1's reflections. :x
 
I thought this was a nice touch in the background.. the reflections of the land, in the sea, which now is way more blue and sea looking, it meets with the terrain much better now aswell :D and I notice absolutely everything in the enviroment is reflected in the lake area. It looks great.
 
Mechagodzilla said:
In addition to that work, making a third-person reflection of a first-person view would require the ability for Gordon's eyes to move exactly where the players eyes are, and his emotions and facial movements, down to the smallest bit, would have to accurately reflect the player's own emotions.
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Gordon would, of course, be looking at his reflection. Otherwise the player wouldn't notice. :p

It's really a case of the lesser of two evils.
 
Mechagodzilla said:
The main reason that you can't see your own reflection would be that it would show limitations in the engine and force Valve to do a lot of extra unecessary work.

First of all, look in a mirror right now. As you look around slightly, your eyes are in constant motion. You might make a face or two. Smile, frown. Wave your hand.

However, in-game, your reflection wouldn't be able to do any of those things. You'd just be looking at a zombie of Gordon, who would be staring straight ahead and moving only his legs and arms.

In order to have a true "realistic" reflection, Valve would have to fully animate the Gordon player model with greater detail, sync up the view models with it, and give it a way to mimic the eye positions and emotions of the player.

All just so that you can look in a mirror.
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Uhm sir, every resistance soldier , Gman, Alyx, and civilian has eyes which follow the player. It would be no problem to have Gordons eyes do that. I am sure it is not an engine limitation.

Its a rather clever gameplay choice , and I like it. You ARE Gordon , he doesnt talk , you can talk , you dont see him in the mirror , you picture yourself in the mirror. Apparently this is hard for some people to wrap their heads around.
 
Technically, if you pointed a camera at yourself in the game, and watch yourself in a monitor, you can see if someone/something is creeping up behind you, because you are a bloody ghost
 
this just doesn't makes sense

no hands on the steering wheel cause you are gordon

no reflection cause you are gordon

though you still can see your hands when holding a weapon despite the fact that you are gordon

if there is one thing i don't like its inconsistancy

If they want to continue with the "you are gordon" thing then take away the player model hands. If everything is invisble might as well make the hands on your gun invisible.

Now valve has had 6 years to make this game, and i'm glad they are trying to make the best product ever, but couldn't they just make a convincing gordon model in that time?

In battlefield 1942 if you stand all up in a soldier's face you can see him making small facial gestures and blinking and whatnot, If a game from 2002 could get an mp character to look more or less natural when standing still you'd think a game from 2004 could do a better job.

If they are willing to show gordon's hands on a gun i think they should show his reflection and maybe his hands on the wheel.

The point of the matter is that when i play "I am gordon", i am not me, i am not an invisbile entity, i am not some big fat lady from kansas, "I am gordon" and if "I am gordon" then i'd expect to be able to see myself as gordon
 
surely they have made a new Gordon Model.. what about classic HL2 multiplayer.. there must be a model .

and it would be nice to see yourself as Gordon but, why valve have chose not to do this is probably as simple as not really needing to see yourself, unless you have vanity in the game as Gordon, lol. .. It aint a big thing really, dont bash it
 
Ahh, I have it. Everytime you look at a mirror, or camera, it breaks!!

And Gordon has bad luck for 7 years muwahahahaha!!!
 
Flyingdebris said:
this just doesn't makes sense

no hands on the steering wheel cause you are gordon

no reflection cause you are gordon

though you still can see your hands when holding a weapon despite the fact that you are gordon

if there is one thing i don't like its inconsistancy

If they want to continue with the "you are gordon" thing then take away the player model hands. If everything is invisble might as well make the hands on your gun invisible.

Now valve has had 6 years to make this game, and i'm glad they are trying to make the best product ever, but couldn't they just make a convincing gordon model in that time?


If they are willing to show gordon's hands on a gun i think they should show his reflection and maybe his hands on the wheel.
Click to expand...

Are people really this picky?


There will be a convincing Gordon model , in Multiplayer.
 
I didn't read many posts in this thread so...yea....

I think no reflection can be a good thing...valve is probably trying to make it seem like you're the one playing in the game, not just controlling Gordon, you are Gordon...

Get it?
 
SWAT 3, a game made waaaaaaaaaay back in 1999, had reflections in it's game complete with full weapons loading/unloading animations. Given, the reflections were limited to mirrors and not just any reflective surface, but that was still 5 years ago. Even Duke Nukem 3D had a working mirror. At the very least, it should be optional for those with the machines that can handle the extra computations.
 
Baal said:
I didn't read many posts in this thread so...yea....
I think no reflection can be a good thing...valve is probably trying to make it seem like you're the one playing in the game, not just controlling Gordon, you are Gordon...
Get it?
Click to expand...

Don't you think that Valve may have used that excuse to get away with Halflife's engine limitations?

I just don't like the fact that they've missed out on some fantastic effects because of what the first one couldn't do.


Theres nothing else that would send shivers down my spine, to see Gordons fuzzy reflection from a mirror off in the distance. :O
 
jet jaguar said:
SWAT 3, a game made waaaaaaaaaay back in 1999, had reflections in it's game complete with full weapons loading/unloading animations. Given, the reflections were limited to mirrors and not just any reflective surface, but that was still 5 years ago. Even Duke Nukem 3D had a working mirror. At the very least, it should be optional for those with the machines that can handle the extra computations.
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Look, it's not an engine limitation by any means. It's a intentional design decision.

I personally doubt they will ever have a situation in game where you would be on a camera or in mirror. It will probably just never come up.

Also, like I said above, if your so bothered by it, then mod it later.
 
About the water in HL2, it doesn't reflect everything. In the video with the helicopter, the helicopter is not reflected, neither are the enemies and it appears, most physically simulated objects will not be reflected. Hopefully you can turn that on, like in far cry, where you can have EVERYTHING reflect. And I'm sure a MOD will come out shortly, with having gordon reflected in mirrors.
 
There will probably be mirrors , just not Gordon in them. Its really not that big of a deal.
 
I like the way it is, it's not like I'm pulling my hair over it.
 
Has anyone here played NOLF 2? No mirrors and it was fine.
Valve has said that there will be no mirrors of Gordon just as there is no voice of Gordon, no cutscenes and no vision of your body/feet. This is a game design choice (even for the first one; Duke 3d had mirrors).
The idea behind HL is that Valve is creating a world for you. You can see, hear and interact with it. Things happen in it and you respond to it. They are not creating a character for you to inhabit because you are already supposed to be Gordon Freeman (if you are immersed in the game). In fact, they are playing down the character so you don't see the character as anything other than yourself. They are trying to hide the fact that you are not actually in the world they created. This is a philosophy and you can agree or disagree with it but, going by results, I would say it worked pretty well in HL1 and I am all for the idea in HL2.
I think the idea that to be more 'realistic' in games means you have to copy everything as it is in real life (you see your body and hands, you balance on two legs, you, you blink, etc) is flawed because games are more like books, movies and other mediums; it's super-reality. Each shot in a movie and each phrase in a book is carefully controled and authored to give you an effect (disorientation, confusion, fear, anger, compassion, etc). In this case accepted 'reality' has to be ignored for a super-real effect (forgetting which world you are in).
 
People, people.

This answers for the camera, but not for the mirror.
 
They should have him wearing some sort of head gear when he's on the battlefield. They would then be able to show his reflection without revealing his face (which is the point, isn't it?). It'd make sense too. Why have an environmental suit without the head gear?
 
-Viper- said:
People, people.

This answers for the camera, but not for the mirror.
Click to expand...

Gordon's not going to be in cameras either. I somewhat doubt there's actually any player model even present in single player.
 
Neutrino said:
Gordon's not going to be in cameras either. I somewhat doubt there's actually any player model even present in single player.
Click to expand...
Umm, did you even LOOK at the picture he attached...
 
vegeta897 said:
Umm, did you even LOOK at the picture he attached...
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Did you even look at the responses Rick gave to people e-mailing him?
 
The mirror wouldnt be a reflective shader like the water, it would be a camera>tv with the camera pointing straight out of it (same idea), the reflective shaders like the water are reflecting an enviroment map created dureing the compilation, its alot friendlier on the CPU than having all surfaces have an input, (see ATI shader PDF).

Anyway id hate seeing that damn orange suit round every corner.
 
Neutrino said:
Gordon's not going to be in cameras either. I somewhat doubt there's actually any player model even present in single player.
Click to expand...

Well the monsters have to be able to hit something don't they? There has to be something there for the bullets/claws to impact with so it registers as a hit.

If you check out any multiplayer game theres always a model attached just you can't see it from your view. <not in the mirror sense but as in looking down and seeing your legs.
 
Abom said:
Did you even look at the responses Rick gave to people e-mailing him?
Click to expand...
I already know he won't be there in the final game, everyone knows that.

But sinse you replied to that specific post I assumed you meant he wasn't there in the picture he attached, or the E3 build, or whatever.

No grudge here.
 
Styloid said:
Has anyone here played NOLF 2? No mirrors and it was fine.
Valve has said that there will be no mirrors of Gordon just as there is no voice of Gordon, no cutscenes and no vision of your body/feet. This is a game design choice (even for the first one; Duke 3d had mirrors).
The idea behind HL is that Valve is creating a world for you. You can see, hear and interact with it. Things happen in it and you respond to it. They are not creating a character for you to inhabit because you are already supposed to be Gordon Freeman (if you are immersed in the game). In fact, they are playing down the character so you don't see the character as anything other than yourself. They are trying to hide the fact that you are not actually in the world they created. This is a philosophy and you can agree or disagree with it but, going by results, I would say it worked pretty well in HL1 and I am all for the idea in HL2.
I think the idea that to be more 'realistic' in games means you have to copy everything as it is in real life (you see your body and hands, you balance on two legs, you, you blink, etc) is flawed because games are more like books, movies and other mediums; it's super-reality. Each shot in a movie and each phrase in a book is carefully controled and authored to give you an effect (disorientation, confusion, fear, anger, compassion, etc). In this case accepted 'reality' has to be ignored for a super-real effect (forgetting which world you are in).
Click to expand...
I don't know about you, but seeing everyone but Gordon rerlected in a mirror is going to shatter the illusion entirely for me. I'll imediately realise that I'm not Gordon, I'm just somebody who is meant to imagine he is Gordon, and the lack of a reflection is just a poorly-hid trick to try and help me achieve that.
 
Varsity said:
I don't know about you, but seeing everyone but Gordon rerlected in a mirror is going to shatter the illusion entirely for me. I'll imediately realise that I'm not Gordon, I'm just somebody who is meant to imagine he is Gordon, and the lack of a reflection is just a poorly-hid trick to try and help me achieve that.
Click to expand...

The point is that there are no mirrors. They aren't going to have a huge house 'o mirrors if you don't reflect. You won't notice the lack of reflection because most every surface will be non-reflective.

Any reflection that does exist would be blurry at best. Like on water.

If there were mirrors everywhere, it would be a problem, but, instead it is only a minor quibble, because there will be no mirrors in game.

Can there be mirrors? Yes.
Did valve put mirrors in? No.
Can they be modded in? Yes.
Will any mirrors look good, despite a FPS/TPS conversion? Maybe.
Are they necessary to the game? No, because they weren't deemed necessary to be included.

Sorry about the redundancy, but i think it needs stressing.

There are no mirrors, so Gordon will not be invisible. It's as simple as that.
 
Well if you're going with the "You are Gordon" crap, thats entirely inconsistant. For one thing, my name isnt Gordon, so the second someone calls me Gordon it ruins the illusion they are talking to me. Then of course you have a hand and a weapon on your screen. So, what, Gordon has hands but he doesnt have a face?

Then of course you must remember the fact that you are playing on a mouse and keyboard so I really dont see how you could possibly be immersed in the game to the extent that seeing some guy in an orange suit (who you have already seen on the box, and in HL MP, and on posters and websites) could shatter that illusion.

You must remember that while we are playing on a mouse and keyboard and looking at a square computer screen thats only 17" big, still looking at curtains and bookcases in our periferal(sp?) vision, the game will never feel like we are actually in it, no matter how much you want it to.
 
The idea is that you are supposed to feel more in touch with the aspects of the game. Not perfectly in touch.

Valve is attempting to make the most immersive game that exists with current technology.
Until VR is mainstream, this is as good as it gets.

I'm tired, so I'll end it with this:
If you're disappointed because there are no mirrors in the game, good for you.
Nobody missed them in the first game, and neither will I.
 
Mechgodzilla thats exactly what I'm saying, there's no possible way the game could be so immersive that seeing Gordon in the mirror could ruin the whole illusion.

I certainly wont loose sleep if there are no mirrors in HL2, but it would seems kind of silly to go to any lengths at all to eliminate Gordons reflection entirely.

As for water, it would be downright stupid if you couldnt see at least a blurry, ditorted image of Gordon when you look down.
 
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