What's left for the Source engine?

UndeadScottsman

Vortigaunt
Joined
Jul 8, 2003
Messages
476
Reaction score
29
Looking at Valve's latest technological endever still leaves me amazed. Even the fabled Doom3 engine has very few features that Half-Life2 doesn't. But what's next? Where will the Source engine, and engines in general, go in the future? Here's what I think.

1. Fluid physics: I think think this is the next step for First Person Shooters as a whole. Not only would this fix the age-old "issue" (And I use that term lightly :)) of shooting a barral full of water and having it empty onto the floor, but you could apply it to stuff like blood as well. I'm sure the little psycho in all of us would love to put a few bullet holes into a combine soldier and have the blood pool and flow like in real life. ;) Imagine killing someone on a roof! Gibbing people would be fun with fluid physics on the blood :D

2. Infinate break points: Instead of pre-determined breakpoints like Half-Life 2 currently has, the engine could be designed to create a new break point where-ever the player shoots it. The game would use the physics system to determine how, for instance, a piece of wood will splinter and would even know enough to make the new polygons and cover them with the inner wood texture. Tie this into the materials system and you're good to go.

3. Deformable models and terrain: This ties into the infinate break points actually, but would imcompass stuff being able to see through bullet holes, blowing you way through walls, dismemberment and what not. All of which are currently not universal and have to be scripted.

4. Unified light source: About the ONLY thing Doom 3 has on Half-Life 2. Might as well include it in the next iteration of the engine, since once it's there, you really don't have to worry about improving the lighting engine much futher. Tieing the lighting into the AI system can produce some VERY awesome effects.

And.. uhh... Other than upping the detail on the levels and models, and improving the AI. I seriously CAN'T think of anything that would improve the engine.

Sincerely,
Jeremy Dunn
 
Digital.dk: But you can't be in the computer. :)
 
Someone did a thread like this a while ago saying that the only thing that needed to be done was the cloth and hair physics/representation/whatever and Source would be perfect. Now I'm not sure what world they're living in, but mine has a fair bit more detail than Source's...
I think you're also a little bit over-excited (although more sensible). Source is undeniably great, but things have a fairly long way to go...
 
Originally posted by el Chi
Someone did a thread like this a while ago saying that the only thing that needed to be done was the cloth and hair physics/representation/whatever and Source would be perfect. Now I'm not sure what world they're living in, but mine has a fair bit more detail than Source's...

Knew I forgot something. :D

I think you're also a little bit over-excited (although more sensible). Source is undeniably great, but things have a fairly long way to go...

Which is the point of this thread: To discuss where things are going to go.

Sincerely,
Jeremy Dunn
 
stop signing your damn posts with

Sincerely,
Jeremy Dunn

it scares huddy.
 
It's got all of that. What's left?

To improve upon all that, and add newer features.

Source is technology, and like all technology it has the potential to improve infinitely and exponentially.

Meaning if Valve continues work on the engine after HL2, it's going to be EVEN better.
 
Originally posted by UndeadScottsman

4. Unified light source: About the ONLY thing Doom 3 has on Half-Life 2. Might as well include it in the next iteration of the engine, since once it's there, you really don't have to worry about improving the lighting engine much futher. Tieing the lighting into the AI system can produce some VERY awesome effects.

id is really *paying* for those shadows, though. I've heard that as much as 50% of their CPU time is being spent on shadows. That's enormous.

And even then, it's not *really* unified -- it's still a combination of projected (texture-based) shadows and stencil shadows. That was the part that bummed me out. When you see nice, smooth, soft shadows, those are projected; when you see unnaturally crisp shadows, those are stencil. As beautiful as Carmack's new system is, it's still not as "unified" as it could be.

When all lights are represented by emissive geometry (no point lights, no spot lights), when the shadow softness is derived from real penumbra calculations, and when we start integrating radiosity-mimicking calculations in real-time... *then* we'll be approaching a true lighting unification.

:naughty:
 
I have to agree with the liquid physics. Imagine playing MP, about to enter a door. You hear three shotgun blasts, and blood oozes under the door in a thin crimson stream. It would multiply the fear by 3, and add great cinematic effects.

The Doom3 engine? You have to be kidding me! Its just Quake 3 with new graphics, physics, and lighting. No new capabilities, really.

Of course, we haven't seen much of the HL-2 liquid physics system, so...who knows?

And bullets leave marks on everything in HL-2, including characters. There's a screenshot example in the PC Gamer HL-2 previews issue. Also, watch the Barricade movie again. The team-mate that gets mowed down by the turret has a large red hole in his hip.
 
Originally posted by |CC|Hudson
stop signing your damn posts with

Sincerely,
Jeremy Dunn

it scares huddy.

Make me. :p

It's got all of that. What's left?
First of all, no it doesn't have all that. We've been told that there are pre-designed break points in all the models (Which means, depending on how many points were put on the model, you could quite possible shoot the edge of a piece of wood, and have it splinter in the center)

And on that tangent, we know that the models also have predetermined break points. Unless the author designs a model to be able to be cut in two, you can't cut them in too. You also can't make the model bend a certain way, unless it was designed to.

There has been nothing mentioned on fluid physics (And Valve has already stated that the barral of water scenerio would not work, which prompted a lot of uncalledfor bitching) and from the gameplay videos, it seems "blood" works much like it did in the original Half-Life, which is to say, a bunch of decals and some minor particle physics and sprites.

And like it's been said before, unified lighting physics is one of the few features that Doom3 has on Half-Life2, ergo Half-Life 2 doesn't have a unified lighting system at this point in time. (Which valve says was a design choice, implying that it COULD be added if they want it to, but it isn't in the engine at the moment)

To improve upon all that, and add newer features.

Source is technology, and like all technology it has the potential to improve infinitely and exponentially.

Meaning if Valve continues work on the engine after HL2, it's going to be EVEN better.
Which is, again, the point of this post. To discuss what can be done to improve Source, and ultimatly all FPS's, in the future. :)

Oh well, I guess I give up. This forum is just think-tank incompatible I guess. :D

Sincerely,
Jeremy Dunn
 
Dynamic Wood....

Doom III engine sucks! Not enough interactivity!
 
Robson: You're kidding me? It isn't really unified? That sucks :D

And bullets leave marks on everything in HL-2, including characters. There's a screenshot example in the PC Gamer HL-2 previews issue. Also, watch the Barricade movie again. The team-mate that gets mowed down by the turret has a large red hole in his hip.

Decals do not equal deformable models. :D Leaving a mark (IE: a decal) on a texture is one thing, but actually deforming the mesh in realtime in mannor which ISN'T pre-determined is a bit beyond our capabilities at the moment :D

The Doom3 engine? You have to be kidding me! Its just Quake 3 with new graphics, physics, and lighting. No new capabilities, really.

Which is probably why I said the lighting was the only real feature Doom3 has on Half-Life 2. Doesn't anyone read what I say? :D

Sincerely,
Jeremy Dunn
 
Liquid physics are a bit useless. Until we have processing power to spare, and we won't even optimze games anymore because they'll run on any system using 10% of it's power we won't be seeing it.
You can make bloodflow pretty convincing without total calculated fluid effects. It would be pretty cool, but a total waste of system resources.

The next thing Source needs to do is dump lightmaps, it's good for now and I actually prefer it over dynamic lighting but that's only because it doesn't kill your framerate as much.
We could even go beyond dynamic lighting, and use global illumination with skylights that make those really soft appearances.

What I would really like to see too are sub surface scatterings (SSS) too, combined with GI you can make VERY realistisc human skin. Because now a light ray bounces of the surface of a polygon, but with SSS it simulates entering the material a bit first, scattering through it and then bouncing back.
http://graphics.stanford.edu/~henrik/images/subsurf.html
This would be the ultimate skin shader.
 
PvtRyan gets the point of this thread. I'd like to thank you personally :D

Meanwhile, I agree with you that all encompassing fluid physics would be a bit much at the moment, but it's always a give and take between processing power and features. I would like to see steps taken towards fluid physics in the next iteration. (Sort of like Half-Life's scripted AI gave way to Half-Life 2 more dynamic way of doing it) Maybe ten or more years down the line I'd think we'd start seeing advances towards something like I described above.

I can't say I disagree with you on the lighting issue :D And the SSS looks very interesting (And is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping someone would post about) Once models get detailed enough, I'm sure the benifit from that system would be enormous. I wonder how bad a CPU hog it is though :D

Sincerely,
Jeremy Dunn
 
This is what Global illumination, high res textures and Sub surface scattering can lead to:

BM_CMap_007.jpg


:eek:
 
Speaking of Doom III, look at this...

Just look, comment if you have to, don't turn into HL2 vs. D3.
 

Attachments

  • roomdoom.jpg
    roomdoom.jpg
    97 KB · Views: 456
That's not really as good as this (most realistic) human rendering I have seen.
 

Attachments

  • schwarz3.jpg
    schwarz3.jpg
    55.5 KB · Views: 420
I just thought of something. Think about playing multiplayer in a multilevel wooden building. You hear someone walking around, and realize its above you, you rip your shotgun up to the cieling and fire, you hear a thud and blood starts to drip from the new holes in the ceiling... how cool would that be.
 
Well...more attack from peace lovin' anti-violence activists...against gaming...;)
 
I have to say PvtRyan pic there, is def more real looking then yours blumenkohl. No offense.
 
it's hard to ask what's left for the source engine because it's an ongoing project. definitely things like fluid physics will be a long ways away, but a thing like dynamic lighting and shadows is shortly coming up and probably will be added to source (vampire masquerade is already doing it). I assume steam will be updating stuff in source like motion blur and depth of field if they're aren't already in during shipping.
 
The Doom3 engine? You have to be kidding me! Its just Quake 3 with new graphics, physics, and lighting. No new capabilities, really.

- You are a freaking moron.
 
Wow. Looking at those almost real-world clone images and then looking at Alyx, I'd have to say graphics and technology got a long ass way to go... :-\
 
that SSS thing really gives a realistic shade to objects. It makes the tea cup look perfect. Liquid physics arent of much use in games right now, I think we're gonna be seeing massive leaps in terms of shader usage. Polygons can only go so far, the shader is what turns good into awesome. Having destructible walls and such is more of a design decision I think. It can be done but it usualy requires levels to be designed differently. I think we will get to a point in 10 years where game developpers will actually be toning down the realism so they dont scare players.
 
Pong, Wolfenstein, Dark Forces, Jezzball, Super Mario Bros/Kart, etc. were not the most realistic of games...

But they were awesome, better than 80% of all the games put out today.
 
Cloth, hair, etc can be done with the Source engine... you will just have to balance the amount of those effects with the amount of performance hit you are willing to take for them.

Real-time deformation of solid objects is probably going to be next in the physics area.

After that... I would think liquid physics would be next in line.
Anyone that says liquid physics have little to no use in games doesn't have a good imagination.
Sure, it takes a lot of CPU power to do properly... but the results can be amazing.

There are all kinds of things that can, and will, be improved in terms of physics and graphics over the years to come...

... but the thing that interests me the most about games getting closer and closer to realism is that when the games finally hit a point where they can't look any better... developers will have nothing left to advertise except the actual game (rather than just the engine's features) and they will be forced to come up with original ideas for games.
 
I highly doubt you can reach total realism.

It'll be like counting all the decimals between 0 and 1. ;)
 
hell, plugging myself into a computer jack "matrix-style" using a digital avatar as realistic as that african dude would be pretty damn realistic, if not perfect - but fairly close.
 
There is always room for more.

If developers manage to get conventional graphics to be totally realistic (which will take some time), they'll begin to work on unconventional realism, like virtual reality, or holographic realism. It never ends.
 
Complete accuracy and the amount of accuracy that you are able to detect are two very different concepts.

Saying that computers will never be able to recreate something that you can't tell from the real thing is similar to when people used to say you would never need more than 64KB of memory...
 
You have to love how people throw out random flames and never justify any of it.

I'd like to see a GTA-style dynamic environment. I mean random weather, and the time constantly shifts from day to night, night to day. Maybe Combine soldiers are out in force in the day, while there are more zombies and headcrabs at night.

I can't wait to see rain effects in HL-2....
 
I think another thing that people overlook is AI. An engine without good AI is not gonna be convincing enough. I think when we get to the point where NPCs can learn and behave as real humans do, we are in for a big eye opener. Can you imagine actually having in-game conversations with characters that talk, react, and have characterisitics of a real person. It would add new depth to games, for sure. Every character would react to your actions, and what you say. They could pick up on your body language, etc... It would be spooky...

Another thing that we need is true HDRI rendering in realtime. This will give us the results of real world lighting better and with much less of a CPU hit that GI. although, GI is eventually where we're heading. I think that fluid physics will be possible sooner than some think. Maya already has fluid physics that you can preview in realtime, albiet at a small scale, but the capabilities are there. Right now, Source has a proxy HDRI feature, but DirectX 9.0 is kinda of faking it for now.

Another thing I'd like to see is elements integration. Water, Fire, earth, Wind. To have things affected my the elements in realtime.
 
Realistic AI is a whole other story, too much realism and you'll kill the gameplay. Golden rule of AI: Make it fun and not too real.
 
Imagine AI which includes voice recognition so you could talk with a voice head set to a character and it would understand what your saying and follow your commands
 
here is my dream for the future of FPS..


a realistic damage system.
my explanation: Each individual model has simulated vital organs with in it. These organs would move with the model and by at the same locations you'd find in yourself.

thus each player would have a simulated heart. major arteries (spelling) liver, lungs, brain.

then each bullet trajectory would always be determined (this can have otehr possitives but i'm only describing the effects of damage on players)
So when each bullet entered the body, it wouldnt' be via hit points, it would simply pass through the MASS of the player, and would continue on its way, thats basically how interactions would happen with all bullets.. then the damage this foriegn object would do would be determined based on
A) what just hit your mass (FMJ hollow points, etc.)
B) blunt damage (the intial hit of the bullet, such as if a vest stopped the bullet from actually penetrating your mass, blunt damage would still be cuased, maybe this caused your leg to fly backwords, you to lose balance, get shookin up, loose breathe)
C) all the physics of the bullet before it entered.. as in trajectory angle, speed, etc.. so that if the bullet could penetrate you would be determined.. and the angle of which it would go through you would be determined..
D) then what if any major organs where hit.. since they are simulated it would be easy to tell what part of them where hit and if they were rendered completely useless or just damaged.
E) based on the damage to organs and body mass.. the 'damage' to yourself would be applied..

so say your liver is torn to shreds, and your unable to walk, you would be put to the ground, allowd to continue to aim/shoot/look around.. but not get up.. and you'd have probably 20 seconds to live before your screen would fade black.

say your heart gets taken out.. and say the force wasn't enough to effect you blunt wise, but your heart is deffiantly gone.. you would have one or two steps before you hit the ground unable to move/shoot/look.. but a few seconds of laying there before screen goes black.

and on and on..

this would also make for some incredible medical use.

etc. etc.
 
Originally posted by smilez
Imagine AI which includes voice recognition so you could talk with a voice head set to a character and it would understand what your saying and follow your commands

Yeah, and then all of the sudden a bullet goes through his head and blood splatters on your screen and oozes down his head, while your teammate screams his lungs off! That would be cool!
 
Back
Top