[WIP] 3 round Dustbowl style map

A

arinak

Guest
Hey everyone,
Im almost finished a level ive been working on and id like to get some feedback on how it plays, and how it looks. I have alot of work to do on the skybox so I am aware that it looks like crap but as far as the rest of the level feel free to comment. Also i know the robot isn't in there yet either but it will be as soon as I finish it.

Here are some screens:
http://userpages.umbc.edu/~nherbe3/tf/maps/Screens/Destructoid01.jpg
http://userpages.umbc.edu/~nherbe3/tf/maps/Screens/Destructoid02.jpg
http://userpages.umbc.edu/~nherbe3/tf/maps/Screens/Destructoid03.jpg
http://userpages.umbc.edu/~nherbe3/tf/maps/Screens/Destructoid04.jpg
http://userpages.umbc.edu/~nherbe3/tf/maps/Screens/Destructoid05.jpg
http://userpages.umbc.edu/~nherbe3/tf/maps/Screens/Destructoid06.jpg
http://userpages.umbc.edu/~nherbe3/tf/maps/Screens/Destructoid07.jpg

Here is the level:
http://userpages.umbc.edu/~nherbe3/tf/maps/cp_destructoid_b1.bsp.bz2
 
 
Biggest downside are those two-dimensional meshes on picture one, but as it's a WIP I shouldn't say too much about graphics.
 
I think you should open everything up more, tf2 maps are much more open and dont have alot of props cluttered about. Work more on capturing the stock tf2 map designs because at the moment your shots look more suited to something more tactical.
 
The level is rather enclosed but the "size" plays like an open map. The screen shots don't do it justice. travel times are shorter than the stock maps but they are long enough to give a sense of open space. As for the meshes... I'm having a hell of a time trying to get the cubemaps to work properly. I build them and build them but they never seem to actually work.
 
What entities are used to create this kind of map?
 
Details details details!

http://userpages.umbc.edu/~nherbe3/tf/maps/Screens/Destructoid01.jpg

What is this? A hangar or black mesa? The roof looks lika hangar but the rest is BM.

http://userpages.umbc.edu/~nherbe3/tf/maps/Screens/Destructoid03.jpg

Lighitng of those tank props. Please look into that.

http://userpages.umbc.edu/~nherbe3/tf/maps/Screens/Destructoid04.jpg

Open it up! More space. A hevay or a pyro would kill eveything in there. Also, sky is way to dark to give off that kind of light.
 
most of the stuff you see here are func_details. Those are great suggestions ill look into them. Yes the first screenshot was supposed to be of a hangar... but yes i can see the resemblance to black mesa.
 
As a rule in TF2, your average corridor should accommodate at least 3 Heavies side by side and your smaller corridors should accommodate 2 Heavies side-by-side.

Why corridors should be wide:
- Cloaked Spies are blocked by enemies so tight spaces are bad for the Spy
- Scouts rely on manouvrebility, so tight corridors nerf them
- Snipers excel at hitting targets forced down a straight and narrow passage
- Pyros only have to aim forward to hit anyone in a tight corridor
- Demos can spam forward and hit most things direct in a tight corridor, also stickies have nowhere to be shot aside
- Soldiers don't need to accurately target the floor in tight corridors, they can shoot at the sides as well
- Medics can hide behind a Heavy and not get hit
- The vulnerable turning circle of a Heavy shooting his minigun is nullified in a tight corridor
- Engies can hold one end of the corridot with a Sentry against all but 3 out of 9 classes

Listen to what DJB is saying: TF2 maps need to have mainly open areas to work well.
 
You don't by any chance happen to know how many units wide a heavy is do you ? I'll try to incorporate such changes.
 
Do it by eye. I heard talk of something around 192 units so give that a go and see if it looks right.
 
Crispy said:
As a rule in TF2, your average corridor should accommodate at least 3 Heavies side by side and your smaller corridors should accommodate 2 Heavies side-by-side.

Why corridors should be wide:
- Cloaked Spies are blocked by enemies so tight spaces are bad for the Spy
- Scouts rely on manouvrebility, so tight corridors nerf them
- Snipers excel at hitting targets forced down a straight and narrow passage
- Pyros only have to aim forward to hit anyone in a tight corridor
- Demos can spam forward and hit most things direct in a tight corridor, also stickies have nowhere to be shot aside
- Soldiers don't need to accurately target the floor in tight corridors, they can shoot at the sides as well
- Medics can hide behind a Heavy and not get hit
- The vulnerable turning circle of a Heavy shooting his minigun is nullified in a tight corridor
- Engies can hold one end of the corridot with a Sentry against all but 3 out of 9 classes
Click to expand...


Lol, that makes perfect sense but it also makes no sense. You're basically saying that snipers, soldiers, heavies, engineers, pyros and demos and each control a corridor on their own. Well, if all thsese classes can, then which one will? DOn't get me wrong, it's a very important point you have there... It just sounds... odd.
 
The point is no, one player should be able to hold a key route of a map because of the design of the area. It should be player skill that determines this. All of the examples I gave don't really require any skill in order to gain the upper hand.
 
One problem I noticed was that the skybox was a little funny. This is a WIP I presume but make sure you fix that skybox, unless no one is going to be outside. The borders just kind of end on this map. Weird.
 
Well i was hoping that they would all work as a team to balance each other out as they attacked these "rooms". If there were pyros then heavys could wipe them out. if there were snipers then other snipers can hit them OR the large amount of cover will help. If there are engineers with turrets then spys and solders can help take them down... I wanted to stay away from the types of maps that cater to spesific classes... i wanted to make a map that FORCES people to work as a team. This is a giant robot bent on destroying the world here. :) and its got to be taken down! SPEAKING of giant robots which concept do you like most?

chuNKY.jpg

bigRocket.jpg

paintY.jpg
 
i wanted to make a map that FORCES people to work as a team.
Click to expand...
The best lesson you can learn for desinging multiplayer games/maps is that you can never force people to work as a team, you can only reward them for working as a team (providing an incentive to do so).
 
very true... I shouldn't force. Ill see what I can do to provide good incentive.
 
In this case you can keep to the same theme, but just keep it so evern if one class has the upper hand in a specific area, the other classes aren't left with no chance against this advantaged class. When you look at TF2 official maps there isn't one map that a whole team would consider choosing a particular class because it increases each individual's chances of survival. Even if you go all Scouts on Granary, if those Scouts hit a SG/Heavy/Soldier/Pyro wall the other team will be able to break back, and the Scout team will be forced to switch to stronger holding classes if they hope to defend against the counter-attack.

That's what's great about TF2, the team that consistently wins out is the one that can adapt their line-up to its advantage the best. The balance of the classes makes this possible, but the maps also have to be designed to uphold this balance and maintain this possibility. With 9 distinctly different classes, TF2 has a lot of variables, so be prepared to refine your design release after release until you get the right balance.
 
Update: New Version

This is an update to the last version I submitted a few weeks ago. Thanks to many people's suggestions, I'm not finished, but Ive made some changes to make the level run smoother, Make rounds 1 and 2 more balanced, and added more detail props. I hope I got rid of that reliable snaphsot overflow error too. That is a very elusive error to track down. The level still floats but don't worry I have plans for that. The robot is being worked on once thats done the level wont float anymore.There were a few other suggestions and i haven't forgotten them they are all on my todo list.

By smoother I mean I can run the level between 35-60 fps on my machine. To put it in perspective, im running my game with full video options at 1680x1050, 4x msaa, ANSI 16x, Vsync On, HDR Full, and Motion blur On. I find this playable and judging from steams stats many people don't run the game with these settings. Not to mention Dustbowl itself runs at these same frame rates.



Here it is an updated Destructoid
http://userpages.umbc.edu/~nherbe3/tf/maps/cp_destructoid_b2.bsp.bz2

P.S. Thanks to all of you I've chosen the second robot model(the color one with the giant rocket on its back)
P.S.S It will be released in the next version
P.S.S.S THERE WILL BE UPDATED TEXTURES!
 
What you really need to focus on is making sure that each class can succeed to its fullest potential. That means tight corners for pyros, high places for soldiers, windows for snipers, heights only reachable through the double jump or rocket/demo jump.

Also, light up places of importance. Capture points should never be hidden in the dark- bring them to the light so the players attention is directed toward it.
 
While I appreciate the very general tips and tricks I would appreciate more specific details about what parts of my level you think I should change/improve.
 
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