Would you consider PS: T Art?

[Max35]

I've heard this talked about numerous times on other forums. So, for interest's sake I'd like others opinions on this topic. So...would you consider Black Isle's CRPG Planescape: Torment Art?

 

[Cerpin]

Does it matter if it's art or not?

The literary aspects of the game are unparalleled. Books are considered art. But is it art on it's own terms as a videogame? I don't think so.

 

[Tagaziel]

Absolutely. Torment is one of the few works that are not only extremely well written, but carry value.

I also disagree with the notion that videogames can't be art. Same thing was said about movies.

 

[Jintor]

Art is an experience. So yes, Torment is art.

 

[Dekstar]

Art is an experience. So yes, Torment is art.

That also unfortunately means Big Rigs: Over the road racing is art.

 

[Warbie]

If video games can be considered as art (which I think they do) then Planescape would certainly qualify.

Enough of these souless 3d games, we need a return to the hand drawn rpgs of the 90s. I remember walking around in Baldur's Gate and Planecape thinking they looked like moving paintings (then NWN came out and took away all of the magic). This was at a low res and on coal powered gfx cards. Think what could be done with current hardware and a widescreen monitor. A living painting.

 

[StardogChampion]

No, it's a bitch to play with that pop-up menu.

 

[kupocake]

The literary aspects of the game are unparalleled. Books are considered art. But is it art on it's own terms as a videogame? I don't think so.

But Fantasy novels typically aren't considered part of the Literary Canon. Neither are Science Fiction novels or most of the genres that Computer Games typically dip into. Being 'Art' is nothing to be proud of anyway. You know something is worthless as soon as Universities start farming in students to endlessly discuss these things whilst their fees are reallocated to the science students that actually need them.

Games will be art the day Gordon Freeman is described as 'the silent voice of Victorian colonial opposition', System Shock as 'an interactive Electra complex' and Metal Gear Solid as 'a metaphor for 20th Century patriarchal oppression'.

 

[Jintor]

That also unfortunately means Big Rigs: Over the road racing is art.

Big Rigs is also art.

Painful, painful art.

/EDIT Well, that depends. Are these random coffee stains on a piece of paper just coffee stains? Or are they something... more sinister?

 

[PvtRyan]

That also unfortunately means Big Rigs: Over the road racing is art.

Art is in the eye of the beholder. If Big Rigs generates some kind of emotion or experience for them, it's art.

 

[CptStern]

no video games are not art ..yet ..more like fine craftmanship. art is about individual expression ..video games are created by committee usually dictated by things like the market, target audience which in turn waters down artistic expression into something more generic and more palatable to the average person ..in this sense video games have reached the artistic level of comic books ..but not the well written underground comics scene but rather the guys in tights genre in it's most generic form ..now there may be a few instances where video games can circumvent these problems but I've yet to see any, but that doesnt mean they dont exist

I've beaten this dead horse once too often ..my reasoning is right there I'm not elaborating any further

 

[Asknoone]

Nobody argue with him please. Seriously. 20+ pages of the usual is not on the cards.

 

[kupocake]

Is it ok to agree though?

 

[Warbie]

Stern is wrong, which makes me, having the last word, right!!

 

[PvtRyan]

no movies are not art ..yet ..more like fine craftmanship. art is about individual expression ..movies are created by committee usually dictated by things like the market, target audience which in turn waters down artistic expression into something more generic and more palatable to the average person ..in this sense movies have reached the artistic level of comic books ..but not the well written underground comics scene but rather the guys in tights genre in it's most generic form ..now there may be a few instances where movies can circumvent these problems but I've yet to see any, but that doesnt mean they dont exist

I've beaten this dead horse once too often ..my reasoning is right there I'm not elaborating any further

Fixed it for you.

 

[CptStern]

Fixed it for you.

not really accurate comparison ..art films are made for the sake of making them ..film can be a single artisitic vision. ie: citizen kane, orson wells

oh and no one is forcing you people to read what i write

 

[Max35]

no video games are not art ..yet ..more like fine craftmanship. art is about individual expression ..video games are created by committee usually dictated by things like the market, target audience which in turn waters down artistic expression into something more generic and more palatable to the average person ..in this sense video games have reached the artistic level of comic books ..but not the well written underground comics scene but rather the guys in tights genre in it's most generic form ..now there may be a few instances where video games can circumvent these problems but I've yet to see any, but that doesnt mean they dont exist

I've beaten this dead horse once too often ..my reasoning is right there I'm not elaborating any further

Out of curiosity, have you played Torment?

 

[CptStern]

briefly years ago

 

[Max35]

Might I suggest a more drawn-out tour of the game, then? Its immense level of detail isn't apparent so much in the earliest portion of the game.

 

[CptStern]

ok


.........

 

[Max35]

Hehe...something tells me that I haven't convinced you to re-visit PS: T. Ah well, perhaps someone more convincing will pop up in this thread eventually...

 

[Raziaar]

Stop talking to him! It just gives him more incentive to post!

<screams>

 

[Jintor]

What's wrong with Stern? If he added punctuation and capitalisation, I might bother to read his arguements more than just once in a while.

Torment is great. <3

 

[nofx]

What is Art? For us to agree on a conclusion we must first define art:
"Revision of basic definition in 1997:

* "A work of art is an artifact of a kind created to be presented to an artworld public.
* An artist is a person who participates with understanding in the making of a work of art.
* A public is a set of persons the members of which are prepared in some degree to understand an object which is presented to them.
* The artworld is the totality of all artworld systems.
* An artworld system is a framework for the presentation of a work of art by an artist to an artworld public"
"

http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/irvinem/visualarts/Institutional-theory-artworld.html

Based on these definitions, and having not played Torment, I will say no. Torment is not art. BUT perhaps an aspect of Torment is an art, like the leveling or texture making but the game itself is just an action, not art.

 

[Stigmata]

Too bad the definition of art is one of the most subjective definitions ever.

 

[nofx]

Too bad the definition of art is one of the most subjective definitions ever.

Of course it has to be subjective hehe, its the institutional theory. But really to declare something art it needs to be made by the hands of man with the idea of "art." Not the idea of lets make a game.

 

[Stigmata]

Of course it has to be subjective hehe, its the institutional theory. But really to declare something art it needs to be made by the hands of man with the idea of "art." Not the idea of lets make a game.

The creation of art doesn't always require creating with artistic intent.

 

[nofx]

The creation of art doesn't always require creating with artistic intent.

What do you mean?

 

[Letters]

If video games can be considered as art (which I think they do) then Planescape would certainly qualify.

Enough of these souless 3d games, we need a return to the hand drawn rpgs of the 90s. I remember walking around in Baldur's Gate and Planecape thinking they looked like moving paintings (then NWN came out and took away all of the magic). This was at a low res and on coal powered gfx cards. Think what could be done with current hardware and a widescreen monitor. A living painting.

I don't really care if any game is considered art or not; I just wanted to agree with Warbie on this.

 

[knut]

What do you mean?

Like, you don't need to make/draw/create/etc something with 'this will be a work of art!' in mind. You could draw anything - anything at all - and someone, somewhere, would look at it and think of it as art. Art is impossible to define. Impossible.

 

[Stigmata]

Like, you don't need to make/draw/create/etc something with 'this will be a work of art!' in mind. You could draw anything - anything at all - and someone, somewhere, would look at it and think of it as art. Art is impossible to define. Impossible.

I was going to post this, but what I had written was upwards of two paragraphs, so I decided "**** it, someone else will know what I mean" and closed the tab

 

[PvtRyan]

Of course it has to be subjective hehe, its the institutional theory. But really to declare something art it needs to be made by the hands of man with the idea of "art." Not the idea of lets make a game.

It isn't art to make the player of a game to feel all kinds of emotions? How is that any different from a movie or a painting?

The best thing to a definition of art I could give you is: intentionally provoking a strong emotion or thought through manipulating someone's perception of reality. But I guess the "intentional" isn't even really needed.