Global warming will kill us all!

[TheHamster22]

...But at least its not our fault.

Well, according to that show that was recently aired on channel 4. I've been trying to find some internet articles that go over the points they made but essentially they go something like this (summed in easy to eat bullet points mmm):

-The troposphere isn't heating up as would be expected if global warming is being caused by CO2 emissions, as this is were the greenhouse gases become trapped and so should be heating up faster than the surface. It isn't.

-The amount of emissions produced by humans is still tiny compared to a lot of natural sources, and the percentage of CO2 in the atmosphere is tiny anyway. (0.032% of the earths atmosphere is CO2, and most of this is produced by volcanos, animals and the ocean.)

-The graphs which show temperature and CO2 levels going up with eachother are being read wrong, if you compare peaks you see that actually CO2 is peaking 800 years after the temperature. It is believed this is due to the oceans heating up and slowly over time releasing the extra CO2 dissolved in them. Meaning CO2 levels must be a by product of plantary temperature increase.

-If you look at recent graphs of temperature increase, you see that the increase begins far before the 1940's when human emissions were relatively low. Then in the vastly larger industrial production times of the 1940's to the 1970's it drops, and at the time an ice age was believed to occur. From the 1970's upwards it is increasing again, when our actually industrial emissions has decreased (this I found dubious in the show, but I'll try and find a citation). (I'll also look for the graphs if I can).

-They have found that planetary temperature actually is far more in line with periods of high solar activity (lots of sun spots), and thus a higher solar wind. When there is lots of sun spots the earths temperature increases, and when theres few, the earths temperature decreases. They have associated this to the fact that cosmic rays, which help in the formation of clouds, are blown away from the earth during these periods of high solar activity meaning there is less moisture in the air (moisture is a very strong greenhouse gas, unlike CO2). (Also I'm not sure on the formation of clouds, can anyone clarify that?)

-Also the recent research by the IPCC that says global warming is occuring, and is backed by 2500 of the worlds top scientists is bogus. In fact if you look at the participants, many are government and non-government officals, and many of the scientists that were originally taking part dropped out due to the IPCC wanting to prove man caused global warming and thus sticking in there own 'cosmological constant' sort of thing. So many of the scientists left, but found out that the IPCC had left there names on the records making them one of the worlds top 2500 scientists, when they really did nothing.

-Also the political conspiracy bit is that global warming is now a massive industry, taking up huge amounts of jobs world wide, and large cuts into government spending. Simply it would cost to much to not have global warming occur due to humans.

Sorry for lack of links, I'll update as I find them. This was all said on the channel four show last night, and had plenty of quite respected scientist folks on there.

So in summary: Global warming is happening, its just not our fault, and we can't do anything about it. WOO! :bounce:

(Maybe!)

 

[NeptuneUK]

"Global warming will kill us all!" Bullshit.
The program was good though, it mirrored everything I've been saying about the issue and proved things that I had suspected but never had any science to back it up with.
The Earth IS infact warming up right now. So what? The average temperature of the planet has never been static and fluctuates regularly. Infact, it was much warmer in the medievil time than right now.

 

[Parlez]

I will believe it when I see it.

 

[NeptuneUK]

I will believe it when I see it.

Believe what? The average global temperature of the earth is actually increasing at the moment. This is based on factual measured evidence. :\

 

[Pauly]

It was a GREAT show! I watched it on google video since I am in America. Props to channel 4.

 

[bbson john]

Icecap is melting. The sea level is raising. Animals and plants are extincting. We are dying. That's the FACT!

 

[Tollbooth Willie]

I'm still betting on the monkeys with spears deal.

 

[TheHamster22]

Icecap is melting. The sea level is raising. Animals and plants are extincting. We are dying. That's the FACT!

Ice caps have melted before. Sea levels are rising marginally. Animals and plants always go extinct, natural selection (yes we are natural). Our population is the largest its ever been globally, and is still increasing.

Our society might change slightly, but I stress the might, because temperatures may plummet again at any time.

 

[Dekstar]

I would like the google vids link so I can see it

 

[Que-Ever]

In the seventies, for a couple months, the big thing was global freezing. People weren't buying it, so later they introduced global warming- this idea was first put out into the public during the summer, and people lapped it up. Hey, it is getting warmer! These guys definitely know what they're talking about.

I'm not saying that global warming isn't real- I mean, how cold was the last ice age? And what's the temperature now? So what's the earth been doing since the last ice age if not warming up?

Whatever, it definitely is not us causing global warming. Did you know cows release more methane into the atmosphere than humans? And man oh man, was Gore's movie a pile of shit.

 

[Laivasse]

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4

There's meant to be 8 parts, but I could only find 1-4. I think the guy might be in the process of uploading it right now.

edit 2!! Here's the full thing: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9005566792811497638

edit: These parts contain some of the refutations to the Gore film at least, plus some of the theories about solar activity being responsible for temperature shifts. It looks like the second (missing) part of the docu will probably cover the motivations of the green lobby.

Some of it is rather suspect. I don't like some of the presentation of the piece, as the argument comes across as being a little bit too indignant and self-satisfied.

As an example of suss presentation: it hypes up this weatherman guy who modelled his forecasting on solar activity. As evidence for how the sun can be used to predict the weather, this guy tells us how he made money from his method of forecasting by betting on his weather predictions against those of the UK Meteorological Agency. "I bet that it would just be a normal winter, and would be coldest after Xmas, around February," he boasts. WOW. You bet that nothing unusual would happen and that it would be coldest in the historically coldest month, nice one. Maybe the guy is absolutely right and his findings were actually a lot more impressive than this, but I tend to distrust anything that presents mundane info as if it's amazing.

Plus it focusses a lot on how there are political motives for the current green trend, but neglects to mention the motives behind downplaying humanity's effect on the environment. Nevertheless I do think there is a lot to question about humanity's role in climate change. I'm just not at all sure this documentary gives us the bottom line.

 

[NeptuneUK]

Icecap is melting. The sea level is raising. Animals and plants are extincting.

All these are completely natural.

The icecaps melt and reform continuously. I bet the global warming propoganda sites dont tell you about reformation do they?







The climate is not static, it constantly fluctuates slowly over time.

 

[Tyguy]

anyone see the commercial where the guy is standing on train tracks, then says something like "Global Warming wont affect me", then he steps out of the picture and a young girl is standing there, all while a train is coming?


Hilarious

 

[Kyorisu]

Believe what? The average global temperature of the earth is actually increasing at the moment. This is based on factual measured evidence. :\

1 degree over the past 100 years or something. I forget if that's Celsius or Fahrenheit.

 

[Tyguy]

Im not sure if I believe it or not, at first I did seeing as it didnt get cold here until february, but now....not too sure

 

[Ennui]

In the seventies, for a couple months, the big thing was global freezing. People weren't buying it, so later they introduced global warming- this idea was first put out into the public during the summer, and people lapped it up. Hey, it is getting warmer! These guys definitely know what they're talking about.

I'm not saying that global warming isn't real- I mean, how cold was the last ice age? And what's the temperature now? So what's the earth been doing since the last ice age if not warming up?

Whatever, it definitely is not us causing global warming. Did you know cows release more methane into the atmosphere than humans? And man oh man, was Gore's movie a pile of shit.

Care to refute Gore's pile of shit, then, as I imagine that it would not be difficult given such a negative description?

 

[Gray Fox]

Gosh well, you just disproved thousands of scientist. I'm going to call them and explain to them that the climate is not static, because you know it's not like they ****ing knew that already, I mean most of them have only researched the climate for decades and have degree's that actually mean shit. I'm sure they never ever, thought about the climate not being static.

You know they also thought the earth was flat, so the fact that they changed it to believing it's round must be a conspiracy to, it has nothing to do with putting in more research and having a better understanding.

 

[TheHamster22]

I'm not totally sure what your getting at with that post foxxy D:

 

[NeptuneUK]

We have already established the fact that the climate changes naturally.


Next.

 

[TheHamster22]

Care to refute Gore's pile of shit, then, as I imagine that it would not be difficult given such a negative description?

watch the show we're talking about ennui, someone posted the links to it somewhere above. They refute his claims in that video, essentially his interpretation of results is way off, and a few other things I believe.

 

[Gray Fox]

I'm not totally sure what your getting at with that post foxxy D:

I'm saying that the premise of this whole thread is BS, and it's arguments stem from a selfserving reluctance to accept scientific fact, and instead supplement it with ignorant bullshit.

It kind of reminds me of the debate that scientist have with intelligent design people, where the ID folks use arguments that seem convincing at first, especially to normal people, but on closer inspection are based on faulty understanding of evolution and the science that supports it.
I see the same thing here. Scientist do not claim we cause global warming, they claim we have accelerated it, to such an extent that nature does not have enough time to cope with it. Add to that the massive deforestation and the rapid expansion of human settlements combines with the rising sea levels, and you can see global warming is going to be disastrous this time around.

Plus, it's not all about driving cars that use less fuel, and taking measures to reduce our influence, scientist are also urging us to do more to cope with global warming, which is something that is not done enough. And it certainly is necessary to provide a safe future for ourselves, and the rest of the species on our planet.

 

[Baal]

I just think we don't know enough about the Earth's climate on a global scale to really know for sure what exactly is happening.

While Mr. Gore's documentary was believable, I'm still not completely convinced. We've been on this planet for what, 10,000 years? Only the last 200~ years or so have we had any sort of accurate way of measuring weather.

That's not even a blip on the radar in the grand scheme of things, so I'm skeptic until I really do see something which is agreed upon by the entire World. To me, it looks like we're heading into another Ice Age, which HAS happened before, and it WILL happen again. Are we the cause of this next one? Maybe, maybe not. We know another one will happen, who's to say the time isn't now, and was always now, regardless of human involvement?

Or maybe this is just a warming period, and there will be no Ice Age as a result, just a cooling period at the end of it, and we're still another 10,000 years away from another Ice Age. Whatever, I'll do my part to cut down on the "global warming" by whatever means necessary, just incase.

 

[StardogChampion]

At the end of the day you could argue against anything you wanted to. You'd be an idiot, but you could.

 

[MiccyNarc]

Just remember folks that in the past, the warming of the planet is always followed by an ice age: this type of occurrence tends to make species go extinct. Combine that with the peak oil crisis and suddenly humanity's future is pretty bleak.

 

[Ennui]

watch the show we're talking about ennui, someone posted the links to it somewhere above. They refute his claims in that video, essentially his interpretation of results is way off, and a few other things I believe.

oh, alright. I'm at work now so I can't but I'll take a gander at it tonight.

Also, I don't know if I believe that humans are causing global warming, I'm more annoyed at the fact that most people seem to write it off regardless because it's... an inconvenient truth, you know what I mean?

 

[Dynasty]

I think if anyone believes all this and therefore thinks we need to do nothing from now on, needs their heads checked. Yes it happens naturally, no ***t sherlock, but we're just speeding it up.

Yassus, thats the whole problem of the global warming debate. We're not CAUSING it, we're SPEEDING IT UP.

You can argue either side, but if you argue we need to do nothing then youre an idiot, as for the sake of the survival of the human race in the future, we need to be doing all we can, no matter how small or 'useless'. If it reduces emissions and the need to use up natural resources, then we need to be doing it, no matter what people think of it being a 'waste of money'. ***k money, its just a piece of paper or a digit number in an account. Humans surviving or a piece of paper? hmmmm tough one. Global warming isnt the only reason we'll be wiped out...theres China and resource levels in general. Oh and population increase : space ratio. Basically, we're running out of room.

 

[MiccyNarc]

Dynasty, only human arrogance could cause us to believe we're destroying the planet. The fact is, she's destroying us.

 

[KagePrototype]

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/03/swindled/#more-414

 

[Absinthe]

Last I checked, nobody reputable ever said we were the cause of global warming. What's been said is that we have contributed to it greatly and have, in effect, made it worse to the point where it could become a serious issue years down the road.

Hint: that's a bad thing.

Shrugging this shit off as nothing more than a natural consequence of nature is, in my opinion, a selfish absolving of responsibility.

 

[Dan]

Care to refute Gore's pile of shit, then, as I imagine that it would not be difficult given such a negative description?

The cows and trees all don't matter, because they are just putting out the CO2 that the plants took out of the atmosphere a couple years back. That stuff is cyclical. The problem CO2 is fossil fuels which are basically millions of years worth of CO2 sunk into the earth and we are releasing it all within the span of a few centuries.

That being said, I think global warming protesters are a bunch of religious fanatics that latch onto an idea and will try to burn anyone who disagrees with them. Global warming may be human caused or it may not be, but I'm not convinced that it is such a catastrophic problem, and I also don't buy any shit about it being bad for the planet. The planet can handle itself, I don't worry about it. If it is bad for anyone it should be bad for humans, and I'm not convinced that it is. How is global warming going to wipe us out? Typhoons, earthquakes, dinosaurs? I mean come on, we will always survive that shit. If humans cause it, and it is bad for humans, then you have a ****ing negative feedback loop. The situation will find a stable equilibrium.

 

[Vigilante]

It's a fact that the earth has gone through global warming and cooling periods since temperatures were first being recorded in the 1500-1600s. Sure, burning of fossil fuels is making it warm up a little more than it should, but in 10-15 years we'll go back into a global cooling period.

bbson john - Extincting? lol...is that even a word? I'm going to start using it!!

 

[kirovman]

I love it how everyone is suddenly an expert on Global Warming, Solar Weather and the history of climate after watching this show.

Ben Goldacre about this show:
http://www.badscience.net/?p=381#more-381

It?s made by Martin Durkin. In 1997 he made a series called Against Nature for Channel 4. It targeted environmentalists, and presented them as ?the new enemy of science? and comparable to the Nazis. They were responsible for the deprivation and death of millions in the Third World.

As well as the normal objections to the content that you might have expected - and fair enough to have your opinion - there were much more serious problems. Channel Four eventually had to broadcast a prime-time apology. The Independent Television Commission ruled: ?Comparison of the unedited and edited transcripts confirmed that the editing of the interviews with [the environmentalists who contributed] had indeed distorted or misrepresented their known views. It was also found that the production company had misled them? as to the format, subject matter and purpose of these programs.? Etc.

Now, it seems slightly odd to me to get the same bloke to make the same documentary after that?s happened, whatever your feelings on global warming and mankind?s role in it, but there you go.

To me this is about trust. As a viewer I can account for bias, but not out and out misrepresentation.

HEADLINE - People suddenly experts in Global Warming, Climatology and Solar Flares



There have been a dramatic increase in the number of people who have an intricate knowledge of solar weather and solar flares after Channel 4's show discrediting anthropological global warming theories produced by a self-confessed conspiracy theorist.

http://www.badscience.net/?p=381#more-381

http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/G/great_global_warming_swindle/index.html


Tan Durk, Professor of Climatology and Tesco at the University of Brighton and Hove had this statement to make:

-- It's really remarkable, never in my years as Chief Emeritus Professor have I seen such an increase of people who are experts in Solar weather, climate change and Global warming. And I should know, I am the Chief Emeritus Professor of Turker-Durkishness!






http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=5727&&edition=1&ttl=20070309164750

Last night's documentary on Channel 4 proved to me conclusively, what I have always suspected,this whole man made global warming issue is a total sham and distortion.How conceited are all these people to think that we humans can having anything but a minor influence on climate, if you want the real reason look up in sky, the sun is the reason. The facts are being corrupted to feed the nazi environmentalist own agenda and our politicians are jumping on the bandwagon as an excuse to tax us more.

Anthony Jeffrey, Climatologist (ex-Plumber)

Didn't see last nights programme them? Wrong on the first count and on the second, Africa has vast reserves of caol and oil but are being prevented from realising it.

Bazzer414, Climate Physicist (ex-Civil Servant)

When considering the greenhouse gases that contribute to the greenhouse effect, CO2 is present at 0.04% of the atmosphere. It's contribution as a greenhouse gas is only 12%, the largest contributor gas is H2O as water vapour at 36%.

Now CO2 doesn't cause clouds to be form. However, water heated/cooled by the sun or lack of it does.

And why is H20 vapour as a major greenhouse gas omitted from research on global warming? Anyone want to try to reduce the amount of H2O in the environment?

Mike Thomas, London, United Kingdom, Weather Scientist (ex-Salesman)

"That claim is often made but it is simply untrue. CO2 emission from vocanoes approx maximum of 230 mill tonnes, Man made CO2 emission approx 22 billion tonnes.

Paul A, London, United Kingdom, NASA forecaster (ex-Taxi driver)

JFK was shot by Lee Harvey Oswald as a result of too much CO2 having deranged his (Oswald's) mind. and Atlantis sank beneath the waves when the sea rose as a result of the last bout of man man global warming . Happy now?

Robert Sharr, London, United Kingdom, Conspiracy Theorist (ex-holocaust denier)

 

[Asknoone]

Dynasty, only human arrogance could cause us to believe we're destroying the planet. The fact is, she's destroying us.

Exactly.

 

[Ennui]

The cows and trees all don't matter, because they are just putting out the CO2 that the plants took out of the atmosphere a couple years back. That stuff is cyclical. The problem CO2 is fossil fuels which are basically millions of years worth of CO2 sunk into the earth and we are releasing it all within the span of a few centuries.

That being said, I think global warming protesters are a bunch of religious fanatics that latch onto an idea and will try to burn anyone who disagrees with them. Global warming may be human caused or it may not be, but I'm not convinced that it is such a catastrophic problem, and I also don't buy any shit about it being bad for the planet. The planet can handle itself, I don't worry about it. If it is bad for anyone it should be bad for humans, and I'm not convinced that it is. How is global warming going to wipe us out? Typhoons, earthquakes, dinosaurs? I mean come on, we will always survive that shit. If humans cause it, and it is bad for humans, then you have a ****ing negative feedback loop. The situation will find a stable equilibrium.

Have you ever paused to consider that that stable equilibrium might not involve the human race?

Regardless of whether global warming isn't happening, is happening naturally, is being magnified by humanity, or is entirely a product of our selfish lack of inhibition, you can't deny that the planet can't sustain the sort of rape we're subjecting it to for much longer without eventually failing to provide us with what we need. The human race cannot destroy the earth, but we can cause the earth to destroy us; it's like floating on an ice block in the middle of the shark-infested ocean. It's melting anyway, and the fact that we're melting the ice further to drink the freshwater it provides doesn't slow the process down.

We have a responsibility to OURSELVES to do all we can to slow the process of global warming, whether its only partially our fault or all our fault.

 

[Absinthe]

Global warming most certainly won't extinguish all life on Earth. That's preposterous. But that doesn't mean it won't kill us.

EDIT: Ennui nailed it right on the head.

Have you ever paused to consider that that stable equilibrium might not involve the human race?

Also, it would be totally uncool if we died off before having our grand exodus into space to colonize distant planets and solar systems. And years later we can wage interstellar war on each other. Seriously, guys. That's an opportunity we don't want to miss out on.

 

[theotherguy]

"Global warming will kill us all!" Bullshit.
The program was good though, it mirrored everything I've been saying about the issue and proved things that I had suspected but never had any science to back it up with.
The Earth IS infact warming up right now. So what? The average temperature of the planet has never been static and fluctuates regularly. Infact, it was much warmer in the medievil time than right now.

No. The temperature in the middle ages was actually much much colder than it is now. It was called "the little ice age"

Human caused or not (and I along with the vast majority of climatologists including the official statements from the international commitie on climate change say it most definatley is human caused) climate change causes huge, devestating and totally revolutionary changes on a large scale across the entire planet. The difference between an ice age and a warm period is +-4 degrees celsius at the equator and +-8 degrees celsius at the poles. If you look at the Earth between ice ages and warm periods you see absolutley massive changes. Entire ecosystems simply dissapear and new ones take their place. Humankind and mammals in general owe their entire existence to the luck that climate change knocked out most of their major compeitors in the form of ice ages, which mammals could handle and large reptiles could not.

Massive global warming (plus or minus 2 to 3 degrees at the equator) will cause catastrophy to plant and animal life all over the world.Humanity can certianly bear it, but not without extreme expense. Many of our crops cannot grow in temperatures an average of 2-4 degrees higher. Wheat and corn production in the central united states will be pushed further and further north until the great plains are not plains anymore but have a similar climate to southern Texas. Coastal communities will suffer massive losses as sea levels rise. Sea algae will boom and kill off many kinds of fish, ocean currents will shift and create weather and climate problems all over the world.

The point I'm trying to make is, climate change is a very big deal. Call it what you want and point to whatever causes you want, but whether its natural or not does not mean it is not a very bad thing. After all, polio is natural, influenza is natural, ebola is natural; but that doesn't mean we shoudl keep them around. Even if global warming is natural it does not mean it is inevitable. The best we can do is actively cut our emissions, physically remove Co2 and Methane from the air and do whatever we can to offset the process, rather than blindly accelerating it as we are now.

 

[<RJMC>]

you know what scares more of this whole thing?

that people care more about if people is responsible or not, and not about the real problem

 

[theotherguy]

I love it how everyone is suddenly an expert on Global Warming, Solar Weather and the history of climate after watching this show.

Ben Goldacre about this show:
http://www.badscience.net/?p=381#more-381

on the H20, the major difference between H20 and C20 (which I think is what he is saying) is that H20 forms clouds that reflect the light of the sun back into space, and balance out their greenhouse properties, while C02 is transparent and light passes through it, yet heat cannot escape.

And I agree, I hate it when people keep saying that C02 is emitted by volcanoes and natural sources more than humanity, when really humans and human-owned animals emit far more greenhouse gasses than all the volcanoes in the world. Another thing, plants emit methane but they more than make up for it by converting Co2 into oxygen.

 

[Sebastian]

we'll find a way to control global warming in the future and then boom! Yellowstone will blow up and send us into another ice age.

 

[Ennui]

you know what scares more of this whole thing?

that people care more about if people is responsible or not, and not about the real problem

The first step towards addressing the problem is getting people willing to acknowledge it and take steps against it.