1/3 source stolen? BS.

[Unnamed_Player]

This is damage control and nothing more. If it was truly only 1/3 of the source that got stolen then we'd be talking about a source tree in excess of 500 megs and any programmer can tell you that's way to big for any game. Hell, 170 megs is massive in it's own right! Considering that most cutting edge games only have source trees that run to about 75-100 megs, the 1/3 statement is BS.

A 1/3 source leak probably wouldn't even compile into anything usable and this compiles into several usable (but very buggy) executables.

Now it's entirely possible that the hacker missed some shader files or something like that but he didn't miss another 330 megs of source! It would have taken Valve a lot more programmers and a lot longer than 5 years to write that much code.

This is damage control. The source got leaked and everyone was sure it was just a leaked beta version of the SDK and no one cared. GN jumps the gun and wants to be straight with the gaming community and says too much (i.e. "Yes that's the HL2 source"). Suddenly everybody and their mother rushes to download the code. Gabe realizes he's made a mistake and now it's "they didn't get all the code".

Considering that Valve themselves has said that they aren't sure how much was taken and they're still looking into it I think Vivendi decided to calm investor fears by throwing out some arbitrary number. 1/3 sounded good to people who didn't know any better so that's what they used.

 

[FAK3R]

Yeah, I agree that they are just stating it is 1/3 to make people more calm about the situation, and in a way lie to themselves..

 

[Azzy]

it wasnt vivendi that made the statement
it was valve themselves

 

[Azzy]

and they never gave a set number

they just said it wasnt all of it
so i dont know where you pulled 1/3 from

 

[nw909]

3,000,000,000 lines of code.

 

[Unnamed_Player]

Originally posted by Azzy
and they never gave a set number

they just said it wasnt all of it
so i dont know where you pulled 1/3 from

"A third of the source code was stolen," VU Games president of international operations Christophe Ramboz told daily Les Echos in its Tuesday edition. "It's serious because it forces us to delay the launch of the game by at least four months, that is to April 2004. Just the time to rewrite parts of the game." -- From CNN

Vivendi said it, not Valve. Valve hasn't said much since the beginning.

 

[DjBourgeoisie]

why is this so hard to believe? Hl2 will most likely be around 2 gigs, so with all the physics hl2 is supposed to have, it sounds to me about right.

 

[rootbin]

i would say that this could indeed be only 1/3 of the code, considering the number of libraries they have purchased. they are missing several editing tools, hammer isn't near ready for public release, there is alot of code missing in relation to physics, and some other stuff is missing.

 

[FAK3R]

Originally posted by DjBourgeoisie
why is this so hard to believe? Hl2 will most likely be around 2 gigs, so with all the physics hl2 is supposed to have, it sounds to me about right.

Please don't say anything if you have no clue what you are talking about..
The source code is 165mb, not the game itself, it is just text. Now think about how big that is

 

[Aralkar]

there was also TF2 and Steam code, but I don't know which % was

 

[Unnamed_Player]

Look, 500 megs is too much. The kind of code base that the national weather service uses to model weather patterns world wide, accounting for every possible factor doesn't even add up to that. The final size of the game has nothing to do with it. Most of the 3 gigs would be art and sounds, not code. Like I said, even 170 megs is huge but that is about what I would've expected from something like HL2, not 500.

 

[DjBourgeoisie]

Originally posted by FAK3R
Please don't say anything if you have no clue what you are talking about..
The source code is 165mb, not the game itself, it is just text. Now think about how big that is

wtf are you talking about you idiot. You do realise that this is a completely new source code, with new physics, editors, etc etc. So you think thats alot? You have much to learn.

 

[Arno]

Originally posted by DjBourgeoisie
wtf are you talking about you idiot. You do realise that this is a completely new source code, with new physics, editors, etc etc. So you think thats alot? You have much to learn.

FAK3R is right. This is about the source code, not the game contents (levels, textures, etc). Your statement that HL2 might be 2 GB in size is completely unrelated to this subject.

165 MB is of course not much compared to the 2 GB of game contents that HL2 might have, but you can't compare those numbers as those 165 MB of source code consists purely of text. 165 MB of text is a lot.

 

[tommie]

yeah but when you compile the source doesn't that lighten things up?

 

[nnyexoeight000]

Ok, guys, install diablo II, and look how big that is. That game is massive, and its over 1GB!!!! I know, I have it installed right now.

500+MB isnt too big for a game, there are bigger. Stop being n00b and accept that only some of the code was stolen, and you will not have a leaked playable demo.

Half Life 2 is a massive game, maybe the 500mb stollen code isnt all that big, maybe HL2 is also a 1GB game.

After all, if there is A LOT to a game, then there is going to be a lot.

So be smart, and do research before blabbering off about what you think is too big for a game.

 

[VBN]

I'm with the guy saying 500mb is a lot. Why dont you guys open up word and see how many lines it will take to make that document 500mb. No images etc just text.

 

[hard candy]

According to this article, PixV security, obtained the source off the net and compiled it and declared it was Half-Life2. It didn't say if it was a full fledged game or not.
Cnet

 

[f-c-m]

Hahaha nnyexoeight000,
your post makes u sound like you too have forgotten the ever important " ITS JUST TEXT!" statement..
TEXT!!, yes most games these daysa re GIGS installed, but we are not talking about game content, we're talking about source code..
big difference, and unfortunately your last post has made you seem just as uneducated as those you have just attempted to put in their place..

Thats ok. nothing wrong with bein the avg. uninformed person in this world. your just one of many.

 

[nnyexoeight000]

its not just source though!!! its tons of models too, and maps and more.
I know cause i have some.

When they said it was just "source", its not that literal, it was a little more than that. and "Source" the engine that valve is talking about, includes the stolen CD content.

Dont get "Source" and "The source code" mixed up.

Also, 500MB being 1/3 makes sense, because if its multiple cds, and they stole 1/3 of source, about 3 cds, yeah, sounds like they grabed a CDs worth. something like that.

 

[Echelon]

only code was stolen, no models, maps or anything else. what you mean is 1/3 of the whole game, including these things. but were are talking about plain source code and 500mb of text/ source code sounds way too much compared to other games...

 

[Seikeden]

Originally posted by nnyexoeight000
IM RETARDED!!!!!!111

We know

 

[Mountain Man]

Diablo II is a 1GB install, true, but a large portion of that is graphics and sound files (the install size is over 2GB if you install the movie files to your hard drive). The actual game executable is surprisingly small.

As for just how much code the hackers actually stole, it's hard to say. They claim they got all of it, Vivendi/Valve claims they only got 1/3 of it. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

 

[ferd]

lots of stupid ppl

 

[Unnamed_Player]

Here's the deal people: We are talking about SOURCE CODE! What they ship with the game is not source code. What gets shipped with the game is what that source code compiles into (i.e. the executables and DLLs actually needed to run the game). How big the final game is, whether it's 600 megs or 5 gigs has nothing to do with what we're talking about here.

The source that was stolen was 33 megs compressed. It expands out to 163 megs. That is almost all just text, several million lines of it. Even cutting edge games only have source trees that are about 75-100 megs. So even 163 megs is a lot. And there is more than just HL2 code in there (there's a little bit of TF2 code, some CS code and the HL1 code) so it seems that is right inline with what you would expect. 500 megs of code would be about a billion lines of code. A project that size would be insanely unwieldy and almost impossible to debug. No programmer would ever want to work on a project of that magnitude (I certainly wouldn't go anywhere near it). It would drive them crazy!

Believe what you want, but you're deluding yourself if you buy the 1/3 stuff.

 

[Crptic]

considering that all of quake 2's source code is less then 6 MB it could very well be 1/3 of the code.

 

[Sparky the Fox]

jesus christ guys. don't make a post just to declare how stupid everyone else is, or how you're the only one that's informed and everyone else is an "avg. uninformed person". and please actually read the other posts. it's like "yeah it could be 1/3rd of the source" "it might be 1/3rd of the source" "it very well could be 1/3rd of the source".

nnyexoeight000, misinterpreting what was being discussed as "too big"
Ok, guys, install diablo II, and look how big that is. That game is massive, and its over 1GB!!!! I know, I have it installed right now...So be smart, and do research before blabbering off about what you think is too big for a game.

DjBourgeoisie
You do realise that this is a completely new source code, with new physics, editors, etc etc. So you think thats alot? You have much to learn.

could be answered by

from the first page
If it was truly only 1/3 of the source that got stolen then we'd be talking about a source tree in excess of 500 megs and any programmer can tell you that's way to big for any game. Hell, 170 megs is massive in it's own right! Considering that most cutting edge games only have source trees that run to about 75-100 megs, the 1/3 statement is BS.

from the first page
The source code is 165mb, not the game itself, it is just text.

from the first page
Look, 500 megs is too much. The kind of code base that the national weather service uses to model weather patterns world wide, accounting for every possible factor doesn't even add up to that. The final size of the game has nothing to do with it. Most of the 3 gigs would be art and sounds, not code.

and then, on the second page, after all of the first page posts and this

...but a large portion of that is graphics and sound files (the install size is over 2GB if you install the movie files to your hard drive). The actual game executable is surprisingly small.

we come upon this

considering that all of quake 2's source code is less then 6 MB it could very well be 1/3 of the code.

and just because people aren't being forced to read it doesn't automatically give license to, in some cases, completely ignore the entire thread aside from the first line or two of the first post and prattle on what was already said.

please be kind and save people who actually read the posts some sifting and read the thread as well before posting.

 

[Craftos]

1/3 of code doesn't mean it is 1/3 of 163MB.
Friend told me there are many libs, tools, compiled shaders and even some docs in leaked source code. There are also some HL1, CS src files. So 1/3 of Source is 33% of some part (size unknown) of that 163 MB. This can be anything, maybe 5, maybe 25MB, but definitely not full size of all uncompressed files!
Anyway I wouldn't believe so much what they are saying now. This can be marketing/damage control.

 

[MooCow]

stupidity bell ringing, ringing, ringing, *BAMB*, awww my bell

Source code is not 1/3 of half life source code, no way.
The leasked beta may be 1/3 of the game.


It should be mentioned for those who haven't got it yet that the Size of the source code has nothing to do with the how big the finished game is.

 

[silent]

This is damage control and nothing more. If it was truly only 1/3 of the source that got stolen then we'd be talking about a source tree in excess of 500 megs and any programmer can tell you that's way to big for any game. Hell, 170 megs is massive in it's own right! Considering that most cutting edge games only have source trees that run to about 75-100 megs, the 1/3 statement is BS.

Okay, I see your point, but why would Valve take the added risk of lying to their community when the community will soon know whether or not only a third of the source is stolen. I like your thinking but it doesn't make sense. To lie now would be devestating to Valve more than what's already happened. (If you're right, i'll eat my hat... no my shirt because it doesn't have a bill )

 

[Cheetarah654]

the system requirements are 3-4 gigs free, and with an engine this advanced it is not unfathomable

 

[Llevar]

160 Mb of of code is 160 x 2^20 = 167772160 Bytes.

Since they don't really use all the funky unicode characters in source each character can probably be encoded in 2 bytes.

A line of source will generally have no more than 80 characters. Let's assume that on average a line of source has 40 characters. Then we have approximately 167772160 / (2 * 40) = 2097152 lines of code stolen.

You decide if you think that's a third of the code.

P.S. There is probably far less than 40 characters on a line on average given all the block delimiters.

 

[Blair]

Splinter Cell came on 3 cd's when it shipped, I believe it was almost 3Gb's in size and didn't have multiplayer.. The age of games under 1gig is over..

 

[MooCow]

Also I'd say only 50% of that 160mb is actual code there are a few non text things in there that bloat it a bit. Still 1mil lines of code is a lot.

 

[Davis]

Originally posted by Sparky the Fox
and just because people aren't being forced to read it doesn't automatically give license to, in some cases, completely ignore the entire thread aside from the first line or two of the first post and prattle on what was already said.

please be kind and save people who actually read the posts some sifting and read the thread as well before posting.

but you are targeting a post to people who don't read posts.

your target audience isn't going to read your post.

 

[Ninjaman]

Well, it looks like we have ourselves a group of coding experts here. DjBourgeoisie, tommie, and anyone else in this thread who has posted out of sheer ignorance, pay attention. Source code and game content are two ENTIRELY separate entities. The source code, written in C++ in Half-Life 2's case, tells your computer how to manipulate the game content to create a playable game experience. Game content is the combination of artwork, music, sound effects, and maps that the source code manipulates. Therefore, without any game content, the source code doesn't amount to much in terms of size. Understand that the leaked Half-Life 2 source, complete or not, would be entirely useless to the average computer user because there would be no levels, sound effects, maps, etc. for the source code to manipulate.

As disgusting as it is to wade through all the garbage posts and completely unfounded bull**** rumors people are posting, I feel that when someone, FAK3R in this case, who is actually informed enough to make an intelligent rebuttal is verbally attacked by a complete ignoramous (DjBourgeoisie), it is appropriate for someone to try and enlighten the dim-witted. Understand that I don't mean to flame, but it really is annoying.

 

[wda97c]

Originally posted by Llevar
Then we have approximately 167772160 / (2 * 40) = 2097152 lines of code stolen.

You decide if you think that's a third of the code.

Just had to register since this thread is making me laugh!

Is anyone here actually a programmer? Ok well I am and the project I currently work on alone has inexcess of 1.5 Million lines of code in it. I can quite happily believe that this was only 1/3 of the source code if that.

What you also have to remember is that in a source tree you don't just have one revision of a file you will have tens or hundreds of revisions of each file recording each change! So in the stolen code they might have 52 versions of one file!

 

[DimitriPopov]

Originally posted by wda97c
Just had to register since this thread is making me laugh!

Is anyone here actually a programmer? Ok well I am and the project I currently work on alone has inexcess of 1.5 Million lines of code in it. I can quite happily believe that this was only 1/3 of the source code if that.

What you also have to remember is that in a source tree you don't just have one revision of a file you will have tens or hundreds of revisions of each file recording each change! So in the stolen code they might have 52 versions of one file!

Thank god I was getting slightly annoyed that noone that was a programmer who actually had experience posted as such , thank you sir.

 

[Llevar]

Originally posted by wda97c
Just had to register since this thread is making me laugh!

Is anyone here actually a programmer? Ok well I am and the project I currently work on alone has inexcess of 1.5 Million lines of code in it. I can quite happily believe that this was only 1/3 of the source code if that.

What you also have to remember is that in a source tree you don't just have one revision of a file you will have tens or hundreds of revisions of each file recording each change! So in the stolen code they might have 52 versions of one file!

I definitely am a programmer, that said, remember that the project you work on was likely built over many years. Surely any good sized application has millions of lines of code, Netscape for instance has something along the lines of 8 million but it has been accumulated over the last 10 or whatever years and is a result of a huge team's effort. Valve apparently has no more than 10 software developers judging by their staff directory and each of those developers is probably very lucky if he develops 50 solid lines of code a day (a standard for a large scale software application used to be 5 lines per day), remember this is c++ code that works in a huge framework not like html or script code which you can write hundreds of lines of in a day.

So if 10 developers write 50 lines of code each a day, and they work 300 days in a year for five years they write
10x50x300x5 = 75000 lines of code in that time.

There are also a few 3rd party code libraries in the source so that could account for another million lines or so. Altogether it seems pretty probably that this is the code in its entirety or something very close to it.

To address your issue of versions, I'm sure that you are aware that development projects have dev instances, as well as storage instances as well as testing instances as well as "golden" instances. That means that while one location may keep all the past versions of files others will not as files are not edited on that machine but are simply copied to it when final versions are obtained.

 

[DimitriPopov]

But Llevar managed to not speak English. I was following until the 2nd paragraph.

 

[vacs]

Like I said last week: Valve (and especially Gabe) doesn't give a sh*t about its "community".

* Valve stated a few time HL2 will arrive on the 30th September... we now know the truth.

* Gabe stated on Shader Day that the HL2 benchmark will also be released on the 30th September. A Lie...

* Valve confirmed the HL2 delay and that the game will be releaed "during a holiday" this year. As now announced by VU, HL2 will maybe ship in April 2004.

* Only this morning Gabe stated in the Halfliferadio interview that only 1/3 of the source code was stolen and NO game content. Just a few hours later the real HL2 beta pops up on the web. He lied.

How tf can we still believe in anything Gabe (or Valve for that matter) is stating? It's all lies, no truth, no bloody interest in the community except when Gabe needs the help of his so-called "precious" community to find the hacker... WTF!

Expect an "official" delay confirmation of HL2 at the end of December. So much for caring about the HL2 community.