Air Operations in Libya Have Begun

[The Monkey]

^ Seeing as how Sarkozy seems to have made this whole affair into a personal mission to liberate the Libyan people, I think France will be able to supply ground forces if and when the time comes. Such an action would of course exceed the mandala given by the UN, though.

 

[Escaep]

I'd love to be able to treat my country fighting a war like a game of football like ye guys do. It is a shame that Libyan pilots aren't being slaughtered just so you can enjoy the spectacle of a dogfight. It's a shame.

People are being killed for **** sake you gits.

Who is calling for the "slaughter" of Libyan pilots? I'd be interested to see some air-to-air dogfights to see if the billions we are spending on these airplanes is worth it. The last time American pilots were even really engaged in air-to-air combat was during the first Iraq war, which was really not much of a challenge when you think about it. Before that, Vietnam was the last time American pilots were tested in the air, which was 40 years ago. Technology has increased a tremendous amount since then and it would be interesting to see how these airplanes perform in air-to-air combat.

 

[ríomhaire]

Who is calling for the "slaughter" of Libyan pilots? I'd be interested to see some air-to-air dogfights to see if the billions we are spending on these airplanes is worth it. The last time American pilots were even really engaged in air-to-air combat was during the first Iraq war, which was really not much of a challenge when you think about it. Before that, Vietnam was the last time American pilots were tested in the air, which was 40 years ago. Technology has increased a tremendous amount since then and it would be interesting to see how these airplanes perform in air-to-air combat.

I can tell you how they'd perform. They'd blow the shit out of the Libyan planes while the US planes were still a dot in the distance. There is no technological competition. Like I said. I'd be the slaughter of Libyan pilots so you could exercise your curiosity of air-to-air combat.

 

[15357]

I can tell you how they'd perform. They'd blow the shit out of the Libyan planes while the US planes were still a dot in the distance. There is no technological competition. Like I said. I'd be the slaughter of Libyan pilots so you could exercise your curiosity of air-to-air combat.

We can predict how they would perform, yes, but empirical data like this is very hard to come by.

 

[Raziaar]

I can tell you how they'd perform. They'd blow the shit out of the Libyan planes while the US planes were still a dot in the distance. There is no technological competition. Like I said. I'd be the slaughter of Libyan pilots so you could exercise your curiosity of air-to-air combat.

In all honesty I have no sympathy for those who choose to remain sided with Gadaffi.

I mean honestly though, do we need an even fight for it to not be considered a slaughter? There is really only one way for the pilots to get killed, and that's getting shot down, and if the objective is a no-fly zone then they're going to get shot down. Whether it's fast and efficient or not doesn't make it any more or less of a slaughter. They're still dying in the same way.

 

[Krynn72]

I doubt everyone staying loyal to Gadaffi is a bad person. For one, its their duty in the military to protect the state, and technically Gadaffi is still ruling. But even more importantly is that they're probably being fed propaganda and have no idea about Gadaffi's committed atrocities, or if they've heard of them then they've been assured that they're lies. Just like not all Germans in the military were supporters of the Nazis, it was still their duty to fight for their country, and most of them had no idea how bat-shit crazy Hitler was.

 

[ríomhaire]

And they'd be shot as deserters.

 

[Raziaar]

I doubt everyone staying loyal to Gadaffi is a bad person. For one, its their duty in the military to protect the state, and technically Gadaffi is still ruling. But even more importantly is that they're probably being fed propaganda and have no idea about Gadaffi's committed atrocities, or if they've heard of them then they've been assured that they're lies. Just like not all Germans in the military were supporters of the Nazis, it was still their duty to fight for their country, and most of them had no idea how bat-shit crazy Hitler was.

I never said they were bad people. I still don't have sympathy for them as war combatants sided with Gadaffi. Most(probably) of the soldiers who would not shoot upon their own countrymen when ordered either already joined the rebel forces or have been executed. Ideally Gadaffi's death would be preferable to the death of all his men provided it would actually spell an end to the conflict against the rebels and civilians who support them... but really, to spare the most lives one side is going to have to die and honestly I'm sided with that opposing Gadaffi considering the orders Gadaffi has given to shoot and kill initially peaceful protesters and then the all out annihilation of the rebels who spawned as a result of the killings.

 

[Baatezu]

I think that Gadaffi, like other despots in the middle east are getting what is coming to them. How long can they honestly expect the supression of peoples freedom and rights to last The presure and anger from people is going to get too much for them to control sooner or later, as it has appeared in Tunisia, Eygpt and now Libya. A despot is only as powerful as the amount of supporters he has, strip them away and they are nothing. I think that Gadaffi has an unfair advantage over the pro democracy rebels in Libya with having more weaponary and utilities at his disposal and that the UN was right to approve a no fly zone to give the rebels a fair chance in getting what they want, that is, the same freedom and rights that we all take for granted in the western world.

 

[Eejit]

"Begun, the air operations in Libya have"

 

[15357]

Just because that your own life is threatened does not give you the right to bomb innocent civilians. The swift removal of Gaddaffi is the best way for Libyan civilians to continue living, and frankly those pilots are in the way.

Yes, I'm sure that not all those pilots are evil, maybe some have families and friends to mourn them, and could be the sweetest people on the face of the Earth. That still does not alter the fact that they are fighting for a government that has lost all legitimacy since they started bombing civilians, and the fact that they are, simply put, the enemy. We can mourn the passing of the kindest people on Earth after we make them stop bombing civilians.

So what should we do? Should we, regardless of all dangers for the pilots involved, fly up next to the Libyan planes and ask them, pretty-please-with-sugar-on-top, to stop committing war crimes? Or should we, with the technology granted to us, utilize our military air assets to the fullest, minimizing the risk for our own pilots and simultaneously assuring that they don't get a chance to commit said war crimes? I do not believe that this is a choice worth considering.

 

[Krynn72]

I wasn't suggesting that you don't attack people loyal to Gadaffi, but saying you have no sympathy for them leads you down a very ugly path. I again refer you to WWII, where even after the war German soldiers were being murdered, even civilians were attacked for being "loyal" to Hitler. 130,000 women were raped by Soviet soldiers just because they lived in Berlin (a place you couldn't really live in without being "pro-nazi".

You need to do what you need to do in order to end the greater injustice, but the people you're killing are not red-eyed evil killing machines. Their situations are all relative to their surroundings and the predicament they're put in by Gadaffi. If your entire family is is being threatened with execution if you don't open fire on strangers, what would do you? If you were brought up in a family who supports Gadaffi and believes his propaganda to be truth, then by circumstance you'd likely be supporting of him too, and believe all his lies. Either way you would need to be eliminated, but to not feel sympathy for them is simply disturbingly narrow-minded.

 

[Yuri]

I wasn't suggesting that you don't attack people loyal to Gadaffi, but saying you have no sympathy for them leads you down a very ugly path. I again refer you to WWII, where even after the war German soldiers were being murdered, even civilians were attacked for being "loyal" to Hitler. 130,000 women were raped by Soviet soldiers just because they lived in Berlin (a place you couldn't really live in without being "pro-nazi".

You need to do what you need to do in order to end the greater injustice, but the people you're killing are not red-eyed evil killing machines. Their situations are all relative to their surroundings and the predicament they're put in by Gadaffi. If your entire family is is being threatened with execution if you don't open fire on strangers, what would do you? If you were brought up in a family who supports Gadaffi and believes his propaganda to be truth, then by circumstance you'd likely be supporting of him too, and believe all his lies. Either way you would need to be eliminated, but to not feel sympathy for them is simply disturbingly narrow-minded.

i appreciate this post in the sea of simple-minded ignorance that is this thread o_0

 

[15357]

I'd like to clarify at this point that I understand, and even feel sympathy for, any enemy combatant that will die at the hands of our allies. I'd prolly be fighting if I were in their shoes, and who knows, I might be the biggest fanatic of them all.

 

[No Limit]

I don't think we know what we are doing with this no fly zone. There doesn't seem to be an end game. What if the no-fly zone doesn't work? What if it does? We have no idea who the rebels actually are and what they would do should they take out Gaddafi. It wouldn't shock me that if Gaddafi falls we would now need to send our troops in and do nation building as we would be responsible for that in a way. I don't see how this situation can turn out well, and I doubt this no-fly zone (which is actually alot more than that) only makes things more complicated.

 

[The Monkey]

A French military official has confirmed that they won't try to get Gaddafi even if they know where he is. The UN mandate doesn't cover this. This is a bit of drag, as I think that would be the quickest way to end the war. There was an interview yesterday with the former Swedish foreign minister, who has met Gaddafi on numerous occasions. He said that while Gaddafi himself is insane and could go on to the end, the people around him, including his sons, are more rational. He speculated that the war would likely end when the people around him got rid off him, and that would become more and more likely the longer the war progressed.

Gaddafi himself seems to become more crazy as the days go by. Yesterday he said that he had trained and armed one million citizens to fight on his side. And this is in a country with six million people.

 

[<RJMC>]

I hope that next time someone wonder why I dislike chavez so much I can just say "look at gadaffi"

 

[Mogi67]

So who's next after Libya? Looks like Yemen.
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/middle-east/yemen-live-blog-march-21

 

[Matorbogl]

Bosnia 2: Electric Boogaloo

 

[Raziaar]

I wasn't suggesting that you don't attack people loyal to Gadaffi, but saying you have no sympathy for them leads you down a very ugly path. I again refer you to WWII, where even after the war German soldiers were being murdered, even civilians were attacked for being "loyal" to Hitler. 130,000 women were raped by Soviet soldiers just because they lived in Berlin (a place you couldn't really live in without being "pro-nazi".

You need to do what you need to do in order to end the greater injustice, but the people you're killing are not red-eyed evil killing machines. Their situations are all relative to their surroundings and the predicament they're put in by Gadaffi. If your entire family is is being threatened with execution if you don't open fire on strangers, what would do you? If you were brought up in a family who supports Gadaffi and believes his propaganda to be truth, then by circumstance you'd likely be supporting of him too, and believe all his lies. Either way you would need to be eliminated, but to not feel sympathy for them is simply disturbingly narrow-minded.

How do you extract that kind of bullshit from a lack of sympathy? Also my lack of sympathy wouldn't continue if horrible things like that were happening to them. They're human beings after all.

It's basically like you're saying that I have no sympathy for them, and as such I wouldn't care if beyond a military operation they were murdered and raped. You're also putting words into my mouth, equating a lack of sympathy for enemy combatants as believing they are evil red eyed killing machines.

Lack of sympathy DOES NOT ****ING MEAN that somebody has a sinister mind with malicious intent. Sympathy basically means that you agree with and you have a sharing of feelings with them. I don't. Not at all. That isn't set in stone, and if evil atrocities were committed against them just like Gadaffi is ordering them to do, I would be able to change my mind.

 

[Hectic Glenn]

Who is calling for the "slaughter" of Libyan pilots? I'd be interested to see some air-to-air dogfights to see if the billions we are spending on these airplanes is worth it.

While I agree for the need for the no-fly zone to prevent Gadaffi bombing his own people there is something intrinsically sick, I feel, about this statement. This isn't about brandishing aerial dominance, it's about protecting the Libyan people. The lives of Libyan people...it isn't a game of rock paper tomahawk, kind of has a forgone conclusion eh?

 

[Shyam]

An important Yemeni general, Ahmar has given support to the protesters in Yemen. After the brutal slaughter of 52 protesters in Yemen recently, I hope Saleh gets what's coming to him (comfy retirement in saudi ?)

meanwhile the western countries need to liberate the oil.... I mean the Libyan people.

 

[Krynn72]

How do you extract that kind of bullshit from a lack of sympathy?
...
It's basically like you're saying that I have no sympathy for them,

Uh...

In all honesty I have no sympathy for those who choose to remain sided with Gadaffi.

I still don't have sympathy for them as war combatants sided with Gadaffi.

Lack of sympathy DOES NOT ****ING MEAN that somebody has a sinister mind with malicious intent. Sympathy basically means that you agree with and you have a sharing of feelings with them. I don't. Not at all. That isn't set in stone, and if evil atrocities were committed against them just like Gadaffi is ordering them to do, I would be able to change my mind.

Perhaps my understanding of what the word sympathy means is incorrect. I didn't realize it was synonymous with "supporting."

 

[15357]

English is not my first language but I thought it meant to feel sorry for someone. I think emphatize with is the term weve confused it with.

 

[lord_raken]

Sympathy
1.
harmony of or agreement in feeling, as between persons or on the part of one person with respect to another.
2.
the harmony of feeling naturally existing between persons of like tastes or opinion or of congenial dispositions.
3.
the fact or power of sharing the feelings of another, especially in sorrow or trouble; fellow feeling, compassion, or commiseration.
4.
sympathies,
a.
feelings or impulses of compassion.
b.
feelings of favor, support, or loyalty: It's hard to tell where your sympathies lie.
5.
favorable or approving accord; favor or approval: He viewed the plan with sympathy and publicly backed it.
6.
agreement, consonance, or accord.

Looks like Sympathy does mean to agree or share feelings or ideas with someone, but it can also be used as an expression of pity.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sympathy

 

[morgs]

Well obviously you have to agree with someones point of view or ideas in order to feel sorry for them, that's what makes you feel sorry for them.

 

[Bad^Hat]

You know, nobody really uses pity any more. It's been hi-jacked by soap operas and stereotypical movie villains. I guess people just think it's kind of an ugly emotion.

 

[15357]

I pity the fools.

 

[Naudian]

GOD DAMN GAS PRICES

LIBERATE MY OIL FASTER

 

[EversorAssassin]

I agree with that guy.

 

[Unfocused]

GOD DAMN GAS PRICES

LIBERATE MY OIL FASTER

You're complaining about gas prices.

(I understand that your post may not be 100% serious, but we'd love to have your prices here)

 

[Mogi67]

Congressman: We're in Libya because of oil
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/03/21/dem_congressman_were_in_libya_because_of_oil.html

 

[Krynn72]

Yeah no shit Congressman. As if anybody believes we go places to support freedom as our president tells us.

 

[Mr. Djees]

That's a gross oversimplification.

 

[Krynn72]

NO YOU'RE GROSS.

 

[The Monkey]

How on earth is this about "oil"? Gaddafi always supplied oil to the west, how the hell is removing him gonna be in the interest of "oil"? If anything, the power vacuum that could very well follow after he's gone might threaten the oil exports, so I'd say that the West in this case is working against the interests of "oil". And what the hell does he mean, anyway? To steal their oil, to raise the oil price (to increase the tax income or whatever), to lower the oil price? People who talk about "oil" very rarely clarify exactly what they're talking about.

In other news, a US fighter has crashed in Libya, but both pilots made it with minor injuries. It's probably due to mechanical failure, rather than enemy fire.

 

[Krynn72]

How on earth is this about "oil"? Gaddafi always supplied oil to the west, how the hell is removing him gonna be in the interest of "oil"?

We'll get it for less money.

 

[The Monkey]

I doubt it.

 

[Mogi67]

In other news, a US fighter has crashed in Libya, but both pilots made it with minor injuries. It's probably due to mechanical failure, rather than enemy fire.

Yeah right dude. As if they would admit that an F-15E was shot down? They've never lost one to enemy fire before. Only two things crash a plane, pilot error and mechanical failure.

 

[Raziaar]

Uh...






Perhaps my understanding of what the word sympathy means is incorrect. I didn't realize it was synonymous with "supporting."

Even if it meant what you thought it meant, and I didn't feel how it means... how do you extrapolate all the crazy shit you said? Because someone who doesn't feel that way automatically supports all those things? No. That's a very far cry.