American beheaded in Iraq

[rmichaeux]

All in all, I think the one thing we need to see here is why the war in Iraq occured anyway. From how I see it, Bush is taking revenge for his father when Bush Sr. was in office during the time when Operation Desert Storm was upon us. And I've kept my eyes on the news lately and following the current events (or should I say tragedies) that have took place. Especially when they showed those disgusting photos of American soldiers forcing Iraqi prisoners to do sex acts and other forms of humiliation. And you hear Bush saying that he is trying to make a better Iraq. The downside of all this is a insurgent rebellion, more and more coalition troops are being killed each day, and to top it all of Iraq has to wait until the end of next month before power is given to the Iraqi people. Bush made one extreme mistake, after capturing Saddam Hussein, immediately, give power to the Iraqi people and let it be taken from there. Bush is only trying to make matters worse by continuing to send forces into Iraq. Being an American, I never liked Bush in the beginning, and never will.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

All in all, I think the one thing we need to see here is why the war in Iraq occured anyway.

well, that's a problem in itself. who actually knows why we are at war in iraq? do you buy the party line about WMDs and tyranny? do you invent links between 9/11 and saddam? do you pass your own moral judgements on saddam and justify it that way? do you think oil has something to do with it or is "it" entirely? that's a major problem with american politics in general and this administration accutely, there is no transparency, and afaic, the true intentions behind the invasion of iraq are only vaguely known at best.

 

[Shadowlands5325]

I really feel bad for the family victim and the guy that got beheaded poor family

 

[Maxi]

Yeah, that is a horrible thing to do, I can't undestand how someone could do that. Also I can't understand how Americans could torture thos Iraqi prisoners. Both are almost equally sick.

 

[Korgoth]

I didn't read the entire thread, so sorry if this has been mentioned before.

Anyway, there is no question that what has taken place is simply disgusting. My thoughts and prayers go to the family of the victim. Now, does anyone see a re-occuring trend here?
They kill, we kill, on and on. Its starting to spiral even faster now. America has become Israel as far as the extremists are concerned. New al qaeda recruiting tools are being created everyday.
Interesting fact here about the decapitation of that innocent man, he would have been safe and sound in America, had we (U.S.) not illegaly detained him (an American citizen) without due procress... Causing him to miss his flight home.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

It's a war zone, Innervision, due process doesn't apply to even American citizens there. Now, as for why he was detained, I have no idea and think it's rediculous. From what I read he was detained at a checkpoint ran by Iraqi forces, then brought to the Americans and was held for some time. Anyway, as for the violent spiral, sure, that's always that way. If you're going to hint that we should just up and leave; I have to disagree. Not only do I feel those people deserved help long ago, but even disregarding that feeling we've destroyed their home and cities, we need to stay until it's over. If we leave now we'll look even worse than before. We won't be looked upon lightly by the Arabs, but even worse. They'll think us cowards and raiders. The effects could be more devastating than the WTC attacks.

 

[rmichaeux]

It's the old saying, "an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth," and so on. No matter how it turns out, there are no winners or losers in this war, just casualties.

 

[rmichaeux]

It's a war zone, Innervision, due process doesn't apply to even American citizens there. Now, as for why he was detained, I have no idea and think it's rediculous. From what I read he was detained at a checkpoint ran by Iraqi forces, then brought to the Americans and was held for some time. Anyway, as for the violent spiral, sure, that's always that way. If you're going to hint that we should just up and leave; I have to disagree. Not only do I feel those people deserved help long ago, but even disregarding that feeling we've destroyed their home and cities, we need to stay until it's over. If we leave now we'll look even worse than before. We won't be looked upon lightly by the Arabs, but even worse. They'll think us cowards and raiders. The effects could be more devastating than the WTC attacks.

Well, it's a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.

 

[seinfeldrules]

God all this garbage I just read about Bush so far down in the polls and the EC is crap made me sick. The EC is a vital tool in national election.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

The EC is a vital tool in national election.

i'd be interested to know what brought you to that opinion.

 

[Chainer]

It's the old saying, "an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth," and so on. No matter how it turns out, there are no winners or losers in this war, just casualties.

There is also a quote by Ghandi "An eye for an eye only leaves the world blind."

 

[seinfeldrules]

I prefer Patton quotes, he seems to hit the bullseye most of the time. Most are actually very thoughtfull.

Oh and here is my response. Seems the forum lost my other one

Perhaps the most compelling argument today is that the Electoral College is an important part of our system of "federalism" in which the states share power among themselves and with the federal government. It tends to narrow the differences between heavily and lightly populated states. Candidates may concentrate their efforts on large states, but they cannot disregard the small states entirely, especially in a tightly contested presidential campaign. It might seem "undemocratic" on those rare occasions when the system yields a paradoxical outcome, but the Electoral College usually has served the American political system well. A constitutional amendment abolishing the Electoral College would be a major change in our system of government. It could happen, and perhaps it should, but it seems unlikely.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

Perhaps the most compelling argument today is that the Electoral College is an important part of our system of "federalism" in which the states share power among themselves and with the federal government. It tends to narrow the differences between heavily and lightly populated states. Candidates may concentrate their efforts on large states, but they cannot disregard the small states entirely, especially in a tightly contested presidential campaign. It might seem "undemocratic" on those rare occasions when the system yields a paradoxical outcome, but the Electoral College usually has served the American political system well. A constitutional amendment abolishing the Electoral College would be a major change in our system of government. It could happen, and perhaps it should, but it seems unlikely.

the arguement here is that the system "usually has served the American political system well".. that is another way of saying that the electoral vote has usually agreed with the popular vote. so why not just skip the middle man? why should a person from wyoming have more of an effective voice than someone from new york or california? that's effectively what is happening if the EC in fact "tends to narrow the differences between heavily and lightly populated states". the last part sums it up pretty well:

1) it'd be a major change; this is basically saying convention is it's own virtue, which is plain foolish.
2) it's unlikely to change (though maybe it should); i agree, it is unlikely and it should change.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Because of states rights Lil TImmy.

 

[Lil' Timmy]

Because of states rights Lil TImmy.

well, i'll give you points for terseness. but this'll be my last post on the matter since i'm taking this thread too far OT, but this is not 1800.. "states rights" and "federalist" concerns are outdated by about 200 years. we should be interested in personal rights not state's rights. is it fair/smart/good politics that a wyoming-ite (?) gets about 1/70,000 of an electoral vote and a floridian gets only 1/240,000?

 

[crabcakes66]

this'll be my last post on the matter since i'm taking this thread too far OT, but this is not 1800.. "states rights" and "federalist" concerns are outdated by about 200 years. we should be interested in personal rights not state's rights. is it fair that a wyoming-ite (?) gets about 1/70,000 of an electoral vote and a floridian gets only 1/240,000?

I agree. Im sure alot of other people do also.

 

[AzzMan]

edit: heh on a side note, i think control of the middle east should be given over to the turks. that would shut up the terrorist f*ckers. turks are ruthless when they chase terrorists. just like when they went after the asshole kurdish leader ocalan... but noooo the EU tries to scare turkey into treating ocalan humanely. f*ck that bullshit.

Hmmm I remember hearing about one general who was fed up with terrorist attacks on his country. So one day a number of know terrorists were captured, taken out to an island, and tied to posts in the ground. The soldiers soaked their bullets in pigs blood and shot all the terrists, except one, who they let free. (the pigs blood was so they didn't get into heaven, according to their beliefs) They didnt have any terrorist troubles after that for a looooong time. Was that the Turks? Just wondering...

 

[Yakuza]

totally agreed, man. ever since the invention of religion, people have been given excuse to do insane things through their insane beliefs. by the way... jesus died around 33 A.D.(give or take a couple years, supposedly) . mohammed started preaching around 622 A.D. right? so, developmentally, islam is now the same age as christianity, about the years 1400/1500 or so, depending on when you think christianity became a full religion. what happened around then? oh, little thing called the inquisition, with plenty of sickening disgusting things carried out in the name of religion. so don't give me this crap about one religion's fanatics being better than another religion's fanatics.

Invention of religion, interesting

quick question, did Jesus say anything or does the bible say anything that condones what happened in the inquisition.


Also I think people need to flush the idea that Humans a fundementaly "good". Its a load of BS. This whole thing in Iraq doesn't suprise me, infact I am suprised that the abuse that they got was all. The US has been known to do far worse to their Prisoners, especialy in times of war.

Makes me thing of a University that did a study back in 1987. They did a study in which the students were "Jailers" of other members of the college. Every one was "in" on this experiment except for the students or Jailers. The Jailers job was to inflict shock treatments to those who had broken a particular rule in the study. Of course when they began shocking people a meter was used to regulate the voltage amount that was sent to the subject to be shocked. The crazy part was that the people being shocked knew about the test and that they would never actualy be shocked. So when the were supposed to be recieving electrical currents the had to ACT as if it were actualy shocking them.

Here is the bad part. After only a couple of days 2/3 of the Jailers were willing to inflict a shocking level that would kill their detainees.


Humans have a nasty tendency to inflict harm and punishement when they have a since of power over individuals.

I mean we have problems keeping our anger in control when some one cuts us off in trafic, imagine being put in the situation were you are in control over those who have killed people you love or befriended.

It doesn't excuse what happened to the Iraq prisoners but the military needs to find some way of keeping things whatched over so stuff like this doesn't happen.

People like those who cut off the heads of innocent people can only be dealt with in one way. They are like a pack of rabid dogs that need to be put down. There is no reasoning with them.

 

[Yakuza]

Im not able to remember a war that religion wasnt a factor.

WW1, Borer War, Vietnam, To an extent WW2, civil war, revolution war, French and Indian War..

I am sure I could come up with a few more.

 

[Yakuza]

^^ You're saying Gore would have invaded Iraq? Highly doubtful.

What if statements are pointless. You have know Idea what Gore would or would have not done.

The US was over 70% for going to war with Iraq. Could Gore have refuted more than half of the countries desire? well it doesn't matter anyways.

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Well i saw the video. Barbaric and sickening.

They are like a pack of rabid dogs that need to be put down. There is no reasoning with them.

I fully agree.

It's times like these you lose faith in mankind.

 

[Adidajs]

totally agreed, man. ever since the invention of religion, people have been given excuse to do insane things through their insane beliefs. by the way... jesus died around 33 A.D.(give or take a couple years, supposedly) . mohammed started preaching around 622 A.D. right? so, developmentally, islam is now the same age as christianity, about the years 1400/1500 or so, depending on when you think christianity became a full religion. what happened around then? oh, little thing called the inquisition, with plenty of sickening disgusting things carried out in the name of religion. so don't give me this crap about one religion's fanatics being better than another religion's fanatics.

Civilizations much earlier than 33AD had "[invented] religion". Christianity had its growing pains (still have problems) with expansion of the New World, the Spanish Inquisition, the secular power of the popes, the Ireland conflicts, etc. I think Islam is still in a Dark Ages of sorts. Don't jump down my throat, but there are no Christian fanatics who have a warped sense of martyrdom, in which they believe that by murdering innocents that they will be received in heaven. Sure not everyone in Iraq or Palestine is going to blow themselves up, but i'll wager a sizable portion believe in the actions of these suicide bombers or followers of al-Sadr (militant religious fanatic). Iraqis perceive us as an occupying force. I'd feel the same way if someone came into my country and tried to wipe the slate clean and start anew. Iraqis want security and stability, two things that were present under Saddam. He didn't have anarchy in his country. Yes, he was a brutal dictator, even more so his sons, but he had order in Iraq, something that is not ubiquitous in Iraq at this juncture.

I saw the video. It's disgusting. I feel sorry for Berg's family. Too bad he didn't leave after he was captured in Mosul (i think it there) and then handed to the FBI. They offered him a ride home. He stayed. And died. Look it's a warzone. You go over there, you know the risks. I will never say he deserved to die. Even Arab countries have condemned the killing. Yes, our country wears a badge of moral fortitude (although many people condemn us for perceiving the antithesis) and we shouldn't have humiliated prisoners. We should have always adhered to the Geneva Convention standards, but sometimes you have to break down prisoners to in order to gain intel. It's a war out there, and war isn't a fun game where if you die you get to laugh about it and respawn.


btw, it's the Stanley Milgram experiment about the shock treatments. A psychology major explained the whole thing to me once. facinating about human nature.

 

[Jhahn2k4]

**** all of it.

****ing bad.

It's against Islam to kill.

Look back to the OLD days.

Armies. That's ALL they did.

Killed and took over.

Bah, this makes me sick.