Animal Rights is pissing me off

[sinkoman]

Earlier today I was talking to a friend of mine about alternative fuels, which got me paranoid about the oil crisis. Through that I somehow stumbled upon a thread about pen and teller (which I entered expecting to find videos on why the oil crisis is bullshit), and ended up reading 3 whole pages of animal rights drivel.

Which really made me paranoid about my morales, and I started losing sanity on who I was, and how ignorant I was for all these years to support this cruel crap.

Then I began thinking "wait, but the only real argument here FOR animal rights is that 'darwinism is cruel'. And you know what bitch, it is, DEAL WITH IT. Animals = not as smart as me, the human. I'm at the top of the food chain biatch. I win, you end up in a factory feeding ME".

Then I began thinking "well, I owe those animals allot, and while I do think there's nothing wrong with mass producing them, I do believe it'd be best if the practices moved towards more human housing practices."

And then I began thinking "but then again, as nice as it'd be to help out them animals, and to make factory conditions for them more livable, there really are more important things in current events, such as all this talk of peak oil, how damn stupid us Americans are, Iraq, and starving africans. Animal welfare can be put on hold methinks".

And then I started thinking "once we get to space i'm sure this'll all be sorted out (assuming we make it that far). Once we get out there, there'll be plenty of land and resources to improve factory conditions for animals"

And then I thought "well that sounds kinda stupid and nerdy, and would I really move to space just to help out them animals? Would I really willingly submit to that kind of culture shock?"

I just really need some peace of mind on all this animal bullcrap

 

[Darkside55]

I enjoy hamburgers.

 

[baron insig]

dude,

why the shit do u care?

 

[sinkoman]

dude,

why the shit do u care?

You actually make a good point.

Imma go buy the biggest ****ing hamburger evar tommorow.

 

[WacK]

I've got a few pointy teeth like all other humans and vegetarians.
Therefore i also eat meat.

 

[Laivasse]

'Darwinism is cruel' is not the only argument against animal cruelty. Before I start though, for the record I eat meat and plenty of it. The following post is more of a message criticising indifference to animal cruelty rather than meat eating.

Animals = not as smart as me, the human.

By this rationale it is OK to beat up and eat mentally disabled people. Unless you contend that there is something special about the human race which separates us from the animal kingdom - for example, a 'Holy Spirit' or some such tosh - then you have to realise that the one thing which separates us from other species is our intelligence.

Why, then, is discrimination between humans on the basis of intelligence strongly discouraged? I'll tell you why - it's because that kind of logic leads to elitism, dangerous thinking about the fitness of various people for life, possibly eugenics, etc... When people start to see intelligence itself as a virtue rather than an asset, they start to forget the responsibilities that comes with it.

The compassion we feel for creatures less self-aware than ourselves is a measure of our humanity; our consciousness of the power we wield over the world, and acknowledging the responsibility that comes with it is what really makes us separate 'human' beings, rather than just another species in the competition for survival. Some animals have had their development so informed/deformed/malformed by the existence of humans that their whole existence is now defined by us (eg. domestic dog). To disregard our consequent responsibility to such animals is just twattish.

Of course none of this sensitivity is obligatory. However, I tend to perceive as a cock anyone who dismisses animal cruelty, since it means that they either have a massive superiority complex or that they lack some fundamental capability for human compassion too. Infanticide isn't seen as more acceptable than homicide because babies are less aware of their surroundings is it? This is because we recognise our responsibility as highly intelligent creatues to protect the defenceless ones in our midst. I'm not suggesting that animals are on the same level as human babies, but the same general principle should still apply.

 

[sinkoman]

I'm not dismissing it, not in the least, my mindset right now is that there are more pressing matters at hand.

You seem to be confusing the words "animal rights" with "animal cruelty". I think animal RIGHTS is stupid and unnecessary. I think animal cruelty sucks and should be dealt with accordingly. And by smarter, I meant "more intelligent". I'm sorry if my wording wasn't anal enough for you :upstare:

I thought about it some more, and along the lines of justification, I thought to myself "what would happen if I placed a carnivorous species in a position of power akin to that of human beings, in that we are capable of basically leaving our food for dead. Creating them purpose built for eating", and I ended up with "it'd eat them all, with absolutely ZERO prejudice". Dunno if I wholeheartedly agree with this, as it seems to completely avoid the fact that unlike a lion, humans are consciously capable of self restraint for reasons related to caring.

I started this as more of a "what's your view" thread than an "i'm arguing this point for this reason" thread, because i'm just having trouble thinking for myself right now.

 

[Pulse]

Animals are lower in the food chain than us, we eat them to survive, it's a simple fact of life. I can't stand people who cry bloody murder when I'm trying to enjoy a fat steak- the animal's sole purpose in life was to feed me. If we were all vegetarian, pigs would become extinct simply because we'd have no real use for them any more.

Sad but true eh?

 

[Laivasse]

I'm not dismissing it, not in the least, my mindset right now is that there are more pressing matters at hand.

You seem to be confusing the words "animal rights" with "animal cruelty". I think animal RIGHTS is stupid and unnecessary. I think animal cruelty sucks and should be dealt with accordingly. And by smarter, I meant "more intelligent". I'm sorry if my wording wasn't anal enough for you :upstare:

But one of the most basic 'animal rights' is the 'right' not to be subjected to cruelty. The two are intertwined. As such, I wasn't accusing you of being dismissive (since you've clearly thought about the issue at least a little), but rather talking about the points at stake in general terms.

It sounds to me you just dislike the term 'animal rights' because it has been stigmatised by the wackier PETA-types and propagandists. That doesn't mean that we still can't afford the some of the same 'rights' to animals that we give to ourselves. After all, 'rights' are a man-made thing, why can't we share them out a bit?

 

[sinkoman]

Animals are lower in the food chain than us, we eat them to survive, it's a simple fact of life. I can't stand people who cry bloody murder when I'm trying to enjoy a fat steak- the animal's sole purpose in life was to feed me. If we were all vegetarian, pigs would become extinct simply because we'd have no real use for them any more.

Sad but true eh?

In this same regard though, don't we owe those cows which we slaughter for our own survival at least a small bit of respect?

The whole "animal welfare" point of view seems to make the most sense to me. Give my tasteh burger some happiness before you slaughter her!

But one of the most basic 'animal rights' is the 'right' not to be subjected to cruelty. The two are intertwined. As such, I wasn't accusing you of being dismissive (since you've clearly thought about the issue at least a little), but rather talking about the points at stake in general terms.

It sounds to me you just dislike the term 'animal rights' because it has been stigmatised by the wackier PETA-types and propagandists. That doesn't mean that we still can't afford the some of the same 'rights' to animals that we give to ourselves. After all, 'rights' are a man-made thing, why can't we share them out a bit?

Well, I saw a bunch of "umg look how cruel we are to t3h animals!" pics that stern posted, and it really just shocked me. I saw a bunch of pictures of pigs in gestation shits and I thought to myself "jesus cripes, it's one thing to farm a pig to eat a pig, but to put a pig in a tiny metal box for all its life?".

I dislike the term "animal rights" because it seems to insinuate that all animals need to be given all the same rights as humans do, which, while the most humane thing possible, really doesn't make much sense to me at all.

 

[Glirk Dient]

I enjoy meat a lot. However I feel that we should do whatever is necessary and reasonable to make sure the animals suffer as little as possible. I don't think we should extend our rights to cover animals because they can't follow the rules themselves towards each other or us.

 

[Laivasse]

I enjoy meat a lot. However I feel that we should do whatever is necessary and reasonable to make sure the animals suffer as little as possible. I don't think we should extend our rights to cover animals because they can't follow the rules themselves towards each other or us.

Agreed about doing whatever is necessary, this is more or less what I believe. As for the notion of extending some of our 'rights' to them - I see this as more of a means of governing our behaviour towards animals, so it doesn't really matter to me whether they understand or not.

Generally though, I think 'animal rights' is just a buzzword term which was conjured up to define in general terms what animals should and shouldn't have happen to them. If the term itself causes problems with people because they don't like what it implies, then I have no problem with dropping it.

 

[sinkoman]

I enjoy meat a lot. However I feel that we should do whatever is necessary and reasonable to make sure the animals suffer as little as possible.

Same here, but what I fear is that, resource wise, it'll never be possible to actually achieve said conditions for purpose farmed animals.

I mean, think of all the land and energy required to give every single mass produced cow a livable sized stall and food portion?

I think that's what kinda freaked me out. Thinking "well, I want to afford these animals a better life, but would I, or the rest of humanity, be willing or even ABLE to pay for it?"

 

[Pulse]

Same here, but what I fear is that, resource wise, it'll never be possible to actually achieve said conditions for purpose farmed animals.

I mean, think of all the land and energy required to give every single mass produced cow a livable sized stall and food portion?

Which would ultimately prove far more of a problem in a third world country than anywhere else. After all, handling livestock is critical for the well-being and even survival of hundreds of thousands of people in India, Africa and so forth, so in these places where people have to practically live off of the land, I severely doubt that they will welcome 'animal rights' legislation with open arms.

 

[Laivasse]

Which would ultimately prove far more of a problem in a third world country than anywhere else. After all, handling livestock is critical for the well-being and even survival of hundreds of thousands of people in India, Africa and so forth, so in these places where people have to practically live off of the land, I severely doubt that they will welcome 'animal rights' legislation with open arms.

Well, in places where people have more to worry about in terms of their own survival, of course animals' interests get superceded. This is a fact of life, although I still see it as regrettable. However, I think that in small impoverished communities that work with livestock, people often respect their animals a whole lot more than we do in more advanced societies with all our factory-farming and such.

 

[Gray Fox]

Sinkoman you're a complete and utter moron. Ever single one of your points has already been address, or is either to stupid to even consider.

Fact is there are only a few people here that can actually give good reasons, and or alternatives for our current situation.

And the rest of you sinkoman like assholes are a grim reminder of why something as utterly insane and cruel as slavery had survived for so long.

 

[CptStern]

Earlier today I was talking to a friend of mine about alternative fuels, which got me paranoid about the oil crisis. Through that I somehow stumbled upon a thread about pen and teller (which I entered expecting to find videos on why the oil crisis is bullshit), and ended up reading 3 whole pages of animal rights drivel.

Which really made me paranoid about my morales, and I started losing sanity on who I was, and how ignorant I was for all these years to support this cruel crap.

Then I began thinking "wait, but the only real argument here FOR animal rights is that 'darwinism is cruel'. And you know what bitch, it is, DEAL WITH IT. Animals = not as smart as me, the human. I'm at the top of the food chain biatch. I win, you end up in a factory feeding ME".

Then I began thinking "well, I owe those animals allot, and while I do think there's nothing wrong with mass producing them, I do believe it'd be best if the practices moved towards more human housing practices."

And then I began thinking "but then again, as nice as it'd be to help out them animals, and to make factory conditions for them more livable, there really are more important things in current events, such as all this talk of peak oil, how damn stupid us Americans are, Iraq, and starving africans. Animal welfare can be put on hold methinks".

And then I started thinking "once we get to space i'm sure this'll all be sorted out (assuming we make it that far). Once we get out there, there'll be plenty of land and resources to improve factory conditions for animals"

And then I thought "well that sounds kinda stupid and nerdy, and would I really move to space just to help out them animals? Would I really willingly submit to that kind of culture shock?"

I just really need some peace of mind on all this animal bullcrap

so lets ignore animals because there's more important things to do? what's the difference from what we already currently have? everyone ignores what happens to animals who become our food ..I seriously believe that if people actually saw the conditions most slaughter houses operate under meat consumption would immediately plunge ..why do you think there's an industry wide ban on filming slaughterhouses? they wont even let you get through the front gates.

anyways I find that these sort of debates are completely useless because 1% of the people arguing against animal rights (which in itself is misleading as animals under law are mostly considered property) dont understand what they're arguing ..and it's not just a few facts here and there, they dont understand the fundamental basis of the argument ...most people say "animal rights" when they actually mean "animals free from cruelty/becoming a commodity" ...people inaccurately point to the good that animal testing does us humans when in fact the overwhelming number of animal testing is for commercial products: dyes used in shampoo/food/clothing/cosmetics etc etc ..did you know that pepsi and coke routinely do animal testing? no one in their right mind could ever argue it's for the betterment of mankind ..but there it is reality vs perception ..people believe animal testing = lead to cure for x dissease when in reality the majority of testing is research for idiotic things like "taste perception" ..sure there's legitimate testing that produces legitimate results however that's the minority of animal testing

oh and we ALL should concern ourselves with animals that are raised solely for human consumption ..even if you dont eat meat ..the conditions they live in breeds disease in humans

this is their reality:

they shit where they stand ..it eventually flows right back into their food source

they litterally shit on top of each other for their entire lives ..dead birds are seldom removed ..live ones will often eat the carcass. This is the reality of corporate farms, where the majority of our food comes from

this is what you eat, either accept it or remain ignorant, your choice



anyways, I hate this topic ..far too many people get defensive because they inaccurately perceive anything even remotely criticial of their life choice as a personal attack ..also the fact that the majority of people dont understand the issues doesnt help either

 

[Gray Fox]

so lets ignore animals because there's more important things to do? what's the difference from what we already currently have? everyone ignores what happens to animals who become our food ..I seriously believe that if people actually saw the conditions most slaughter houses operate under meat consumption would immediately plunge ..why do you think there's an industry wide ban on filming slaughterhouses? they wont even let you get through the front gates.

anyways I find that these sort of debates are completely useless because 1% of the people arguing against animal rights (which in itself is misleading as animals under law are mostly considered property) dont understand what they're arguing ..and it's not just a few facts here and there, they dont understand the fundamental basis of the argument ...most people say "animal rights" when they actually mean "animals free from cruelty/becoming a commodity" ...people inaccurately point to the good that animal testing does us humans when in fact the overwhelming number of animal testing is for commercial products: dyes used in shampoo/food/clothing/cosmetics etc etc ..did you know that pepsi and coke routinely do animal testing? no one in their right mind could ever argue it's for the betterment of mankind ..but there it is reality vs perception ..people believe animal testing = lead to cure for x dissease when in reality the majority of testing is research for idiotic things like "taste perception" ..sure there's legitimate testing that produces legitimate results however that's the rare exception

oh and we ALL should concern ourselves with animals that are raised solely for human consumption ..even if you dont eat meat ..the conditions they live in breeds disease in humans

this is their reality:

they shit where they stand ..it eventually flows right back into their food source

they litterally shit on top of each other for their entire lives ..dead birds are seldom removed ..live ones will often eat the carcass. This is the reality of corporate farms, where the majority of our food comes from

this is what you eat, either accept it or remain ignorant, your choice



anyways, I hate this topic ..far too many people get defensive because they inaccurately perceive anything even remotely criticial of their life choice as a personal attack ..also the fact that the majority of people dont understand the issues doesnt help either

Ahem

Sinkoman you're a complete and utter moron. Ever single one of your points has already been address, or is either to stupid to even consider.

 

[CptStern]

well I didnt read anything past the OP ...I fully admit that: too disheartening, too likely to give me a headache, too likely to give me reason to loathe some of you ...like I said I hate this topic ...my points still stand as it addresses the entire community not specifically sinkoman


edit: laivasse has some excellent points the rest of you should swallow small bits of glass and die ... :E ..ok not you grey fox

 

[leib10]

I had a steak last night.



And enjoyed it immensely.

Seriously, for those who think that humans should be vegan, they only have to look at our biology, or more specifically, our teeth.

 

[Laivasse]

edit: laivasse has some excellent points the rest of you should swallow small bits of glass and die ... :E ..ok not you grey fox

Hurray, this depressing thread can end in butsechs after all :farmer:

(not you grey fox)

 

[CptStern]

my first brit!!! ..be gentle

 

[DeusExMachina]

I like meat. As long as it keeps tasting good, I'm gonna keep eating it n_n.

 

[Laivasse]

my first brit!!! ..be gentle

No Stern, it shall happen this way and this way only

 

[Atomic_Piggy]

Eventaully will get synthetic foods, then our decendants will look down on us and laugh at how barbaric we are.

 

[CptStern]

awesome! I get to shout big words while acting all manly/sweaty followed by mansex, the lord has smiled on me today! thank you jebus, thank ye lord


btw this thread would be better served if you change the title to:

"Animal Rights is pissing me off so I kicked a puppy today"

it sets the tone immediately instead of having to plod through the OP just to arrive at the same conclusion

 

[DeusExMachina]

Eventaully will get synthetic foods, then our decendants will look down on us and laugh at how barbaric we are.

I'll be dead, won't matter to me.

 

[phantomdesign]

Earlier today...<snip>
Which really made me paranoid...<snip>
Then I began thinking...<snip>
Then I began thinking...<snip>
And then I began thinking...<snip>
And then I started thinking...<snip>
And then I thought...<snip>
I just really need some peace of mind on all this animal bullcrap

You sir are weak-minded and easily influenced. I could tell you what to think, but that would be too easy and not much fun. Just go kick a puppy and you'll feel better.

 

[tehsolace]

youre so right man

in fact, lets start growing animals in mass quantities and use their body heat as a source of alternative fuel, ala matrix style.

we can keep them in control using a virtual farm environment.

 

[tehsolace]

this is what you eat, either accept it or remain ignorant, your choice

too late. thanks alot

 

[CptStern]

too late. thanks alot

dont complain then when they have to remove 2 feet of your colon because years of eating meat has left a wad of undigested meat/fecal matter on the lining of your colon

have fun shitting into a bag :E

 

[tehsolace]

dont complain then when they have to remove 2 feet of your colon because years of eating meat has left a wad of undigested meat/fecal matter on the lining of your colon

have fun shitting into a bag :E

dude seriously stop youre freaking me out. :x

 

[CptStern]

I'm kidding about the colon thingy ...it can happen even if you dont eat meat


"say hello to baby food, cuz that's all you'll be able to disgest"

 

[Pulse]

Lole scare tactics.

 

[99.vikram]

Why don't we save a lot of repetition and continue the debate here?

At least everybody should read that thread before posting here.

 

[<RJMC>]

I think the problem whit this is that people dont get the message or get it wrong

for example someone mentions animals rights,first thing that comes to mind to some is "dont eat meat cuz you are da murdered obey peta" but in reality like stern posted is about the way the animals are threated,which affects the resuslting product which is our food
also the fact that some people think theyr are so macho cuz they dont feel sad for the animals and going like "I dont care about animals I ma macho! *start beating kitty*look at the hair of my penis cuz me macho!*ends up killing kitty* now excuse me while I go to my macho muscle car like me to watch 300"

so is about not geting the point

 

[DeusExMachina]

Listen, Nietzsche said I am allowed to excess my power over anything I am superior to. If I'm ever caught in Africa with lions all around me, they are more than welcome to devour me.

 

[Muffin Man]

Seriously, for those who think that humans should be vegan, they only have to look at our biology, or more specifically, our teeth.

Eh, why don't we all go out and live in the wild, then? We have the physical capabilities to do so. Truth be told, we're intelligent enough to do things not because we were born with the physical capacity to, but because we have put thought into it. Who cares if we have teeth adapted to eating meat? Doesn't really mean much in this technological age.

That being said, I eat meat. Not a lot of it, but I do. I've thought about doing the vegetarian thing, but I think I'll wait until I move out of my parents' house before I put any serious thought into it. Just make things easier. It's a personal choice, and I oppose vegetarians who feel that they need to "recruit" people who still eat meat. But, still, if you think the meat industry is fine right now, you're just wrong. I don't care if you eat meat or not, you can't look at the slaughterhouses and tell me there isn't room for improvement or that we don't have the capabilities for it.

 

[sinkoman]

Holy shit, did anybody even read this thread?

Stern, quit being a ****ing asshole, and pretending my mindset is something it's not. Read the thread, please.

In fact, if you had actually READ the thread, then you'd have known that your post in the pen and teller thread was what made me start thinking differently about what i've done. If anything i'd say that was mission accomplished for you.

And gray fox, I don't care what your opinion is, it's your opinion, but I specifically started this thread for people to state their opinion on the matter. Not for dipshits like you to start pointless and space wasting arguments.

 

[Geogaddi]

You're an asshole for eating meat!

You're an asshole for calling me an asshole!

Well, You're an asshole for eating meat!

Well, You're an asshole for calling me an asshole!

Etc...