Are "New Age" gamers getting soft?

[Saturos]

Heh, I find it funny how many kids complain about how tough games are these days.

I mean, my 8 year old nephew and his friends for instance has no appreciation for a good challenge it seems. When I was their age, I had to figure out video game stuff on my own for the most part, or I'd just watch my cousin play if I couldn't do it for whatever reason.

If they can't figure something out, they'll interrupt me at every possible moment (even during critical hours before class when I'm trying to study for an exam) and ask for my help. I'd rather show them how to play a game than just do all the hard parts for them, which gets annoying after awhile, but it's like they don't care to learn, they just want me to do everything for them. :/ (They should be doing their studies themselves rather than playing games all the time anyways )

I'm always tickled to death though when I push it on them to keep trying and they eventually finish the "hard part" on their own. I mean, isn't this how it's supposed to be? Just doing all the "hard parts" for them makes me feel like were raising a generation of softie gamers that just wants "graphics and story" but without the challenge. :/ Am I wrong here?

Oh and also, they shouldn't be playing GTA either, but their mother (my sister) doesn't care.

/end of rant*

 

[Musk]

It does seem that most old games were very tricky to finish. Trying to finish the first Half-life was painful. I had to get the walk through out every other level and I still haven't beaten that darn alien at the very end >.< Come to think of it I could hardly ever finish a game in my youth. Games certainly are a lot easier now which is more ideal for kids of all ages anyway. I think the developers are concentrating more on the graphics and game play rather then level of difficulty and puzzles nowadays. Thats what most gamers want now.

 

[Stene]

That is just like my brother. He plays GTA Vice City, and when cops come after him he always suicides in the game.

And he continuosly comes and asks me to "help him pass the mission". Then when I play it a bit he wants me to like, complete the whole game.

He even does it with Super Mario Bros, even in the 2nd level he is like, come and complete this for me I can't do it myself. And that is ****ing annoying. When I ask him "why the hell can't you even try" he is like "I just can't...." and then just goes away. And I see it very dumb that he is 8-year old, and can't even play Super Mario Bros. When I was 8, I thought Mario was just some "kids game" and I was all into Half-Life

 

[Saturos]

It does seem that most old games were very tricky to finish. Trying to finish the first Half-life was painful. I had to get the walk through out every other level and I still haven't beaten that darn alien at the very end >.< Come to think of it I could hardly ever finish a game in my youth. Games certainly are a lot easier now which is more ideal for kids of all ages anyway. I think the developers are concentrating more on the graphics and game play rather then level of difficulty and puzzles nowadays. Thats what most gamers want now.

Yeah, games were harder back then, but simpler. Even today's Mario games are too much for younger gamers. Not because of core difficulty, but because the whole 3D thing has made controls too complicated for younger gamers. Still, the thrill of games with me is when it kicks the shit out of me and makes my cry uncle. I feel this is lost with younger generation games and gamers.

Today's games rarely do that for me anymore and it's like kids only care about the core content, which isn't bad of course, but difficulty settings just shouldn't be so modest.

As games become more realistic, nobody seems to care about "gameplay" or "innovation" anymore. Don't get me wrong, I like FPSs, RTSs, Adventure games etc., but me thinks it's time for something new.

Also, there are getting to be fewer and fewer games geared towards kids that are actually fun. The reason kids don't like "kiddie games" is because it's boring. Honestly, after actually playing a few myself, I can't help but to understand why they tend to go for the more violent stuff not suited for their age range. I've tried to get my nephew to play stuff more suitable for his age but...*sigh* all he talks about is GTA and let's face it, GTA is not for kids.

 

[Sulkdodds]

"New Age" games? You mean all those titles centred around esoteric spiritualism, holistic health and power crystals?

AGE OF AQUARIUS: MYSTERIES OF GAIA

Coming soon to a qwartz crystal console near you.

 

[Eejit]

Back in my day every game involved walking 15 miles, barefoot through the snow simply to get to the first checkpoint! And that was being chased by wolves every step of the way!

Oh me old bones.

 

[Que-Ever]

"New Age" games? You mean all those titles centred around esoteric spiritualism, holistic health and power crystals?

AGE OF AQUARIUS: MYSTERIES OF GAIA

Coming soon to a qwartz crystal console near you.

No, he means like Blondie.

 

[Adabiviak]

heh, I thought you meant old games like Swordquest on the 2600. Easy to play, not a frickin' clue how to beat it. I think we got like 3 clues at the most. A number of those games we'd just play until we won or didn't. I think there's a difference between being knowing what to do but it being hard to pull off and now knowing how to do it at all. The boss at the end of Painkiller: Battle out of Hell was a fun match difficulty-wise, but there's no way I would have figured out how to defeat him on my own.

 

[Tagaziel]

Don't worry, after the 'tards at which most games are aimed nowadays grow up, the games should become properly challenging again.

 

[Bad^Hat]

Don't worry, after the 'tards at which most games are aimed nowadays grow up, the games should become properly challenging again.

Let's just hope they play enough games to become sterile in the process.

 

[i am HOLLYWOOD]

I think games are by natural progression becoming more simple and easy. But i think the riduculously hard challenges are out there (Cod4 on Veteran anyone)?

As for the gamers. It is my sad belief that gamers are slowly turning into whiney noobs that lurk on easy difficulty.

 

[VirusType2]

When I was a kid, I remember liking a challenge, Like The Legend of Zelda - it was challenging, but not too hard.

Many of the games from the past are insanely difficult. If it was the only game in existance, you might play it enough to get good at it.

Everyone likes a challenge, because it triggers the reward in your brain that makes you feel good.

Nobody likes to fail.

everyone likes to win.


The best games are challenging, but not too difficult.

it's easy to become bored with a game that is too easy. In fact, the entire game may be boring.

Yeah, overall, games have gotten easier, but that's okay with me, because they are still challenging IMO. the quick save feature that many PC games allow you to retry the difficult areas over and over, which keeps the challenge, but gives you unlimited chances.

I condone the quick save. It takes a little of the reward out, but I never get far in games that require you complete a large and difficult task without dying.

I don't have time to devote to games like I did when I was a kid.

Also, I'm getting old, so I'm not as quick.

I also approve a difficulty setting. Gamers range from like 4 years old to 100, and everything in between, and you can't expect them to be of the same skill at playing games, but they may still want to play the game.

 

[Darkside55]

I remember when "strategy guide" was a dirty word, "walkthroughs" were for the inept, and Game Genie meant, "F*cking turbo tunnel I've been at this for hours, GXXZZLVI."

Not knowing many young gamers I can't really say whether they're becoming softies or not, but I can say that games of old were lessons in perseverance. Make no mistake: games today aren't easy. There are still some difficult, challenging games that require skill, timing, and good technical know-how. The difference is that, while games today are designed to give you a challenge, games of the past were designed for the express purpose of pissing you off. Old games were programmed by sadists who didn't want you to win; some games were downright unbeatable. You just couldn't do it, it's physically impossible. But you tried anyway.

And I don't know, maybe in your particular situations those of you who have siblings or younger relatives, maybe since you're there they want you to handle it for them. Because you're there. "Why tough it out myself when someone else can do it for me?" Maybe it's just a shift to wanting that instant gratification. I know that when I was younger and my friends and relatives and I would play a game, it was all about beating that challenge yourself. Old console players on here probably all remember the phrase, "Reset so I can try it." You HAD to beat the challenge yourself. It was a mark of honor. It still is.

Trying to finish the first Half-life was painful. I had to get the walk through out every other level and I still haven't beaten that darn alien at the very end >.<

D:

What are you waiting for? Go beat him.

You know that's one thing, especially talking about Xen, I always hear gamers (even some reviewers) talking about how the jump puzzles were so hard. What, nobody ever played Super Mario? Moreover, Super Mario 64? FFS, they weren't even puzzles. Xen was like the easiest thing in the world. To me it was less "navigate this level" and more "relax for all your hard work and marvel at the beautiful scenery."

 

[Asknoone]

Did it ever occur to you that maybe they just don't find the hard parts fun? I mean, that's the most important ingredient right: Fun. "No appreciation for good challenge", what is that anyway? To find out that it's hard they clearly tried to give it a go and then subsequently failed. Maybe they tried again but were as equally unsuccessful. Attention waning. Give-a-shit metre waning. Chances of putting the game down and never playing it again extremely high.

Just doing all the "hard parts" for them makes me feel like were raising a generation of softie gamers that just wants "graphics and story" but without the challenge. :/ Am I wrong here?

Completely wrong. You kind of missed gameplay out, didn't you? The most important factor of a game and you kind of booted it from your softie-gamer-lite list. And you know, I don't think they DO want challenge! There are all kinds of degrees of challenge. And this is the GTA games you're talking about - they are playing games so downright shitty and sloppy in gameplay execution and without a shred of polish that yeah, I can imagine them asking for help.

Today's games rarely do that for me anymore and it's like kids only care about the core content, which isn't bad of course, but difficulty settings just shouldn't be so modest.

So what, we're going to have 80% of the people who buy the game never play again because it's challenging to the point of nausea. Understand, most people play a difficult section once, twice or three times at most before turning off the console/PC.

As games become more realistic, nobody seems to care about "gameplay" or "innovation" anymore. Don't get me wrong, I like FPSs, RTSs, Adventure games etc., but me thinks it's time for something new.

...what? That has nothing to do with your challenging argument.

Don't worry, after the 'tards at which most games are aimed nowadays grow up, the games should become properly challenging again.

No, gaming won't go down the shitter after the last several years of long-awaited sophistication. And you're talking about 85% of the gaming community right there, a good deal of which aren't kids, so hey. And you are forgetting about the next generation of "kids" which will surely take their place.

(Good heavens, gaming evolving - back, back I say!)

Not knowing many young gamers I can't really say whether they're becoming softies or not, but I can say that games of old were lessons in perseverance. Make no mistake: games today aren't easy. There are still some difficult, challenging games that require skill, timing, and good technical know-how. The difference is that, while games today are designed to give you a challenge, games of the past were designed for the express purpose of pissing you off. Old games were programmed by sadists who didn't want you to win; some games were downright unbeatable. You just couldn't do it, it's physically impossible. But you tried anyway.

Exactly. Games are now challenging in a sophisticated and polished way, as opposed to the **** way.

 

[Alterego-X]

As games become more realistic, nobody seems to care about "gameplay" or "innovation" anymore. Don't get me wrong, I like FPSs, RTSs, Adventure games etc., but me thinks it's time for something new.

Portal? Spore? LittleBigPlanet?

 

[MattyDienhoff]

You know that's one thing, especially talking about Xen, I always hear gamers (even some reviewers) talking about how the jump puzzles were so hard. What, nobody ever played Super Mario? Moreover, Super Mario 64? FFS, they weren't even puzzles. Xen was like the easiest thing in the world. To me it was less "navigate this level" and more "relax for all your hard work and marvel at the beautiful scenery."

I agree completely.

 

[Asknoone]

You know that's one thing, especially talking about Xen, I always hear gamers (even some reviewers) talking about how the jump puzzles were so hard. What, nobody ever played Super Mario? Moreover, Super Mario 64? FFS, they weren't even puzzles. Xen was like the easiest thing in the world. To me it was less "navigate this level" and more "relax for all your hard work and marvel at the beautiful scenery."

I don't think the fact that the jumping puzzles were hard had anything/much to do with it. The scenery was amazing, yeah, but the gameplay itself was horrendous. It wasn't fun, wasn't good - not a trace of polish. It was a disaster. I got through them fine. They were just crap.

 

[Darkside55]

I don't think the fact that the jumping puzzles were hard had anything/much to do with it.

Go back and read old reviews. Also, you spend as much time as I do in the Half-Life sections; how many times have you heard, "I keep falling off!" "Xen was hard" "Stupid jump puzzles." It seems like majority of people found the area genuinely difficult.

 

[99.vikram]

I don't think the fact that the jumping puzzles were hard had anything/much to do with it. The scenery was amazing, yeah, but the gameplay itself was horrendous. It wasn't fun, wasn't good - not a trace of polish. It was a disaster. I got through them fine. They were just crap.

You lose major points for not liking Xen. I mean, what was your motivation to play through the Black Mesa sections? I played through them so I'd get to see the alien world firsthand. Black Mesa was the challenge, Xen was the reward (an awesome one at that).

 

[Warbie]

I played HL to completion only once, but played up to the Xen section numerous times. It just wasn't fun. Fortunately everything preceeding was so good that this never bothered me. I still find HL to be more consistently great than no. 2.

 

[Asknoone]

Half-life is a woefully inconsistent game. There's spots of horrible, shitty, irritating and then moments of pure brilliance. But it's so clumsily put together it's hard to consistently enjoy it.

Go back and read old reviews. Also, you spend as much time as I do in the Half-Life sections; how many times have you heard, "I keep falling off!" "Xen was hard" "Stupid jump puzzles." It seems like majority of people found the area genuinely difficult.

I think I meant more in terms of me because yeah, you're right. But still jumping mechanics are always going to be clumsy for most players.

You lose major points for not liking Xen. I mean, what was your motivation to play through the Black Mesa sections? I played through them so I'd get to see the alien world firsthand. Black Mesa was the challenge, Xen was the reward (an awesome one at that).

What does my opinion of Xen have to do with my motivation for playing through the rest of the game? I played through Half-life not really knowing where it was going, even though I had the vague idea that we'd probably end up in that nebula-void we got a glimpse of in the opening chapter. That doesn't stop the end-game from sucking major monkey balls (as it did).

Atmosphere and general look of Xen was a great visual treat. Beyond that, it sucked. Two of the worst boss battles in gaming history and appalling gameplay does not a good finale make.

But my opinion of Half-life is not the topic it hand, so...

 

[Emporius]

Xen had so much potential to change the gameplay later on in the game, instead it was rather boring. The change of scenery was beautiful, but the overall execution of the levels was rather dull.

 

[Warbie]

Each to their own, Samon. I constantly felt driven forward in HL. Got to survive, got to get out. In HL2 I had plenty of meh moments that felt a bit vague and directionless.

 

[Asknoone]

Just because I didn't put “I” in there doesn't mean I was implying it was an official, universal, government approved stance or anything. It's just my opinion on Half-life and it's often poo gameplay. For me, HL2 was wonderful because it was vague and often directionless; that was the point of the game. It was an intentional kind of directionless from a narrative stand point. I was compelled to go forward and uncover what I had unleashed on the world, what had happened in that 15 year period. You weren't told anything, you were just thrown in there by the Gman who intentionally manipulated that. It's pretty clever.

 

[Bad^Hat]

I loved the way you were only taught to use the long-jump module in the tutorial at the start, so by the time you get it you're like "okay, what again?"

Edit - I thought HL2 always had a pretty distinct direction. If not from someone telling you directly "do this, Gordon", then from the total linearity of the level design.

 

[VirusType2]

(Good heavens, gaming evolving - back, back I say!)

hahaha, that is so fitting for you to say that with your daffy duck avatar.

I nearly cried laughing.

Just because I didn't put “I” in there doesn't mean I was implying it was an official, universal, government approved stance or anything.

LOL oh my.

 

[Warbie]

If not from someone telling you directly "do this, Gordon"

I think that's what bugged me. Some guy tells you to go walk/drive ten miles, killing everything in your path, and you do it just because he said so. All these moments made me feel less like the Gordon from the first game - which, despite being just a linear, was always asking you what you were going to do - and more like your average fps hero.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Games are definitely less nasty than they were once upon a time: games of yore, looking back 20 years or more or less, were challenging in a truly evil way: that is they often required near superhuman skill and perserverence to navigate hellish gauntlets. I appreciate this kind of difficulty. I completed Stuntman, for chrissakes. But I would say that modern skill tends to be more nuanced, subtle, or indeed optional - it is fairly easy, with a little wit and lateral thinking, to complete Portal, but those in search of truly hardcore challenges can become incredible at the game. Similarly, note examples such as the Total War series, which demonstrate that the age of difficult games requiring real mastery to succeed at the highest levels is not over yet.

Nevertheless it seems like games in general are easier and shorter - but that would make sense given the change in the market.

Considering the burgeoning indie-stry I doubt we'll ever see the total demise of hardcore kicks. And a good thing too. I like to think I can appreciate both kinds of difficulty. D:

You know that's one thing, especially talking about Xen, I always hear gamers (even some reviewers) talking about how the jump puzzles were so hard. What, nobody ever played Super Mario? Moreover, Super Mario 64? FFS, they weren't even puzzles. Xen was like the easiest thing in the world. To me it was less "navigate this level" and more "relax for all your hard work and marvel at the beautiful scenery."

I agree actually, except that is a false sense of security you are lulled into before stumbling into hellish indoor combat sections against alien grunts. Brr.

 

[ríomhaire]

The only part of Xen I didn't like was the factory. The factory started off really good. You got to see Xenian society at work. The slaves there aren't hostile; they just want to get on with their work. The level fell apart when it turned into another ammo-starved shootout. Also, progression in the Xen levels is really silly and contrived. You blow up a headcrab queen and it reveals a portal that takes you to a factory, for some reason.

 

[Bad^Hat]

Also, progression in the Xen levels is really silly and contrived. You blow up a headcrab queen and it reveals a portal that takes you to a factory, for some reason.

Magic man done it.

G-Man is the ultimate hand-waving tool.

 

[Sulkdodds]

The only part of Xen I didn't like was the factory. The factory started off really good. You got to see Xenian society at work. The slaves there aren't hostile; they just want to get on with their work. The level fell apart when it turned into another ammo-starved shootout.

I really liked that, because it was nasty - I mean the odds you'd expect to face in the alien fortress world - but I have to admit the whole section might have been more effective if it was a quiet coda to the riot and siren of the rest of the game, which was a tight little screaming pain tunnel full of bullets and ichor.

 

[ríomhaire]

Ichor? Isn't that some sort of building material?

 

[Sulkdodds]

It's a hilarious cliched word for alien blood.

 

[Kyorisu]

Chances of putting the game down and never playing it again extremely high..

Until years later when you simply blitz through it like nobodies business.

 

[-Kashmir-]

Heh, I find it funny how many kids complain about how tough games are these days.

I mean, my 8 year old nephew and his friends for instance has no appreciation for a good challenge it seems. When I was their age, I had to figure out video game stuff on my own for the most part, or I'd just watch my cousin play if I couldn't do it for whatever reason.

If they can't figure something out, they'll interrupt me at every possible moment (even during critical hours before class when I'm trying to study for an exam) and ask for my help. I'd rather show them how to play a game than just do all the hard parts for them, which gets annoying after awhile, but it's like they don't care to learn, they just want me to do everything for them. :/ (They should be doing their studies themselves rather than playing games all the time anyways )

I'm always tickled to death though when I push it on them to keep trying and they eventually finish the "hard part" on their own. I mean, isn't this how it's supposed to be? Just doing all the "hard parts" for them makes me feel like were raising a generation of softie gamers that just wants "graphics and story" but without the challenge. :/ Am I wrong here?

Oh and also, they shouldn't be playing GTA either, but their mother (my sister) doesn't care.

/end of rant*

I know what you mean. My friend and a neighbor who invited himself over, (one's really good at Portal and the other one sucks at any Valve game ), we were playing Portal. And on the second test-chamber, the kid who is older than me was asking me to do it for him.

 

[Trevelyan]

Games are definitely less nasty than they were once upon a time: games of yore, looking back 20 years or more or less, were challenging in a truly evil way: that is they often required near superhuman skill and perserverence to navigate hellish gauntless.

Battletoads from 1992!

;(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idZ9C0Qtj2A
;(


The Industry is evolving & growing, seemingly at a exponentially rate it seems in some departments perhaps. It's difficult if to get your head around & answer questions like... Are gamers getting soft, "New age" or otherwise.
More games & good looking consoles & more money & the rest will = more new gamers. I'm nostalgic for the old days I remember, circa 1990 onwards, but play more than ever now & online too, which is great fun & the more the merrier!

Regarding the Are games getting easier? argument (see thread here http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=140208 ) I agree up to a point but It's a complicated thing, lots of ins & lots of outs regarding Yourself & the Industries produce, & your relation too it. Let us all game on!

 

[Darkside55]

You blow up a headcrab queen and it reveals a portal that takes you to a factory, for some reason.

*Grips head*

WHY was that portal there? It doesn't make any sense. It was buried under yards of solid rock, being "guarded" by something that had absolutely no business guarding a portal, had no desire to guard a portal. It was just there. A portal and a healing pool. Under solid rock.

Battletoads from 1992!

Yep, turbo tunnel. That's what I was referencing when I mentioned Game Genie. I guarantee you that guy has been playing Battletoads every day SINCE '92 to beat that level. I'm telling you man, it takes years of study and practice to beat a single Battletoads level, and nobody's ever beaten the whole thing. You'd need to gather an expert on every level from 1-13 and put them all in a room together and have them each defeat their level in sequence, so that the world might finally know the ending.

 

[Letters]

Hah, my brother and I used to always play Battletoads Double Dragon on SNES... with Game Genie of course!

I actually, um... still remember the infinite lives Game Genie code. 40B8-04AF. Pretty cool, right?!


I've also never finished Half-Life 1... not even gotten to Xen...

 

[BabyHeadCrab]

"New Age" games? You mean all those titles centred around esoteric spiritualism, holistic health and power crystals?

AGE OF AQUARIUS: MYSTERIES OF GAIA

Coming soon to a qwartz crystal console near you.

I lol'ed.

 

[DEATH eVADER]

I mean, my 8 year old nephew and his friends for instance has no appreciation for a good challenge it seems. When I was their age, I had to figure out video game stuff on my own for the most part, or I'd just watch my cousin play if I couldn't do it for whatever reason.

I use to play Transport Tycoon when I was 7 year old (and now I'm playing OTTD). But I managed to beat the game, and know all the tricks of the game.

Now my nephew (who was 7 years old) is borrowing my copy of Locomotion. After showing the tricks that I learnt all those years ago, it seems that he's doing just as good as me .

The problem these days is that the manuals that are provided with games are just small 10-20 pages of crash course notes of how to play the game, written in such a monotonic way that it deters people from reading. Now compare that with the 100+ pages of yesteryear, with the quirky manner of writing, it encouraged people to learn through the use of the manual.

Two examples I can think of are Dungeon Keeper and Theme Hospital (Okay they were Peter Molyneaux creations, but there you go). The point is the bigger the manual, the probability of finding a solution to your problem will increase.