attn bible bashers

[Reaktor4]

just wondering what excuses you all have for this:

A TWICE-TOLD TALE

Reader Michael Clear:

I was recently arguing with a co-worker about this. This person's brain is a sponge for right-wing and fundamentalist rhetoric. He is conversant in all the Creationist and Intelligent Design talking points but he had no response for what I said to him. My trump card in debates like this is always the same. I asked him, "Which creation story would you teach in schools if you had to choose?" His response was, "The one in the Bible." I said, "Yes, but which one?" He again replied, "The one in the Bible." I then got very sarcastic and said, "Gosh, are you saying you don't know that there are two distinctly different stories of the world's creation in the Bible? Have you ever even read the Bible? You presented yourself as such an expert on the subject!"

This got him, and every other Creationist I've ever said this to, to hum and haw and scratch their heads and deny that what I said was true. I don't blame people for not knowing this. I went to Bible classes from 1st to 6th grade and I didn't know until I read a book by Isaac Asimov called In the Beginning. Asimov was the first person to point out to me that the Book of Genesis has two distinctly different stories of the origins of the world. The first story consists of God creating the Earth and sky out of the darkness and the void that existed before, through nothing more than His divine will. He starts by the creation of light and, six days later in His final act, He creates humans. "Man and woman He created together."

The second story is less sophisticated and has more in common with other primitive myths. In that one, the Earth already exists though devoid of all life save for God. His first act is to fashion a clay statue in His image. By breathing into it, He miraculously grants it life and consciousness and names this first man, Adam. God then creates all the plant and animal life then takes one of Adam's ribs and creates from it a companion for Adam, a woman He names Eve.

Both stories have huge differences, the main one being that in one, man and woman are a final act of creation and it is specifically said they are created together. In the other, man comes first and then comes woman after everything else. They are definitely NOT created together. This is obvious when you read it, yet most of the planet (including me and most other believers, not only in Creationism, but Evolution as well) has missed it completely. The only real response I've ever gotten to this was when I was in basic training and one of my squad members, when I told him this, simply said over and over again, "I believe everything the Bible says." It was a mantra he repeated by rote and it was the only thing he could think of to say.

So, I wouldn't be surprised if most of your readers had no idea about any of this. I took Bible classes in my youth and those two tales were sort of glazed over into one story. We were taught that God created Adam and Eve during the six days and the contradictions were never mentioned, much less addressed. But, if you should find yourself in an argument with someone preaching Creationism or Intelligent Design, bring this up and watch the blank expression that forms on the face.

These two quite different accounts are to be found in Genesis I and Genesis II. What fascinates me is that only one of these accounts can be true, and the only other possibility is that perhaps neither one is true. And, if you’re curious, look up the two quite different accounts of Noah and The Flood, as well….

source: http://www.randi.org/jr/200509/091605church.html#6
well?

 

[Mr-Fusion]

I always just treated genesis as a metaphor for a much more complex and lengthy task.

Still can't rule out the possibility we were created by aliens....heh wouldn't that be a hilarious end to religion if it was true :farmer:

 

[clarky003]

bible classes, hmm lol seems so alien to me.

hmm, thats not going to stop creationist's believing in divine creation, nor will it stop evolutionist's smacking them about the head, but whats the big deal.. at the end of the day... whatever happened we are all a result of it. maybe in reality it was a combination of both. who knows... but yes the bible contradict's itself, reeking of ancient personal opinion. But then again science creates theories that do the same thing, and then become to some (alot of religious scientist's out there), a religion to uphold in itself.

So I say science and religion cant go hand in hand, one is a belief the other is based on a determinate, but still incomplete factual physical evidence, you can make educated guesses from the science.. you can make wild speculation from it aswell.. but at the end of the day we are always allowed to believe what we want.. If a defiante truth is what your after however which IMO is more important, then they all might aswell shut up and get back to work.

 

[Reaktor4]

but whats the big deal..

the big deal is that billions of people live their lives by what it says in this book, and this creationism crap is even being taught in science(!) classes to kids in america. didnt bush even say god told him to attack iraq or something? religion is evil and dangerous.

 

[kirovman]

Gah, I often find that religion is the easy way out option for people who don't want to learn. I'm not knocking theology or anything, I'm just talking about your average blind faith Joe who listens to the religious politicians.

And using religion as an excuse in politics is the sign of a regressive society. I don't mind that political leaders are religious. I do mind that they use this religion as a tool to sway the votes, or somehow justify their actions. At the end of the day, they are responsible, not god.

Angry Lawyer (below), I agree with that.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

religion is evil and dangerous.

Should read

religion is evil and dangerous in the hands of the stupid.

I believe in God, but I'm not a creationist, and I know that the Bible is more of a rough guide than a book of facts. I also believe in evolution, and the big bang.

Not everyone who believes in a higher power is backwards, you know.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Mr Stabby]

I find when you point out one of the bibles many flaws, they just say "its there to test our faith".

 

[clarky003]

the big deal is that billions of people live their lives by what it says in this book, and this creationism crap is even being taught in science(!) classes to kids in america. didnt bush even say god told him to attack iraq or something? religion is evil and dangerous.

You know its okay aslong as it remains an element of belief, and not taught as if it where fact, and more importantly aslong as it doesnt impinge on the many institution's leading countries, oh woop's my bad.. that seems to of already happened :x .

 

[Solaris]

Angry lawyer, do you belive in a multi verse. And why do you belive in God when their is no evidence?

Hope you dont mind me asking

 

[ríomhaire]

You know its okay aslong as it remains an element of belief, and not taught as if it where fact

In science class? Plus I believe in one state that ID and Evolution must be given equal time in class. How can you posssibly give them equal time? If you give the facts then evoltion will take much longer to teach fully. And if you point the holes in each theory ID wins by a mile. How can you give them equal time?

 

[Raeven0]

I actually gave a response to this very point somewhere. Let's see if I can find it.

[shuffling through web pages occurs]

Here. To understand it you'll have to pick up a copy of Genesis and peruse the specific terminology used for yourself.

Assuming Genesis was not spliced wrongly by ancient scholars, it seems to me that God forms the entirety of man in His mind on the sixth day before actually creating the body of man on the eighth. This idea would be consistent with the rest of the Bible, in which God is said to know us before we're even born (see Jeremiah 1:5)--implying that He creates us in His mind before forming us "of the dust of the ground" and breathing into our nostrils "the breath of life" (NKJV).

But then, I'm only a mere Christian, not a theology major.

 

[Solaris]

The bible was written by men.

Where did these men get there knowledge? They made it up.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Creationism and ID is only taught in religious schools I believe. We only learn Evolution in my science class.

 

[CptStern]

I remember both points from theology classes in highschool ..but they were always presented as different facets of the same story ......good find btw, have to remember to bring that up next time :thumbs:

 

[Stigmata]

And if you point the holes in each theory ID wins by a mile.

You can't possibly be serious.

 

[Llama]

In science class? Plus I believe in one state that ID and Evolution must be given equal time in class. How can you posssibly give them equal time? If you give the facts then evoltion will take much longer to teach fully. And if you point the holes in each theory ID wins by a mile. How can you give them equal time?

Er...no.
If you actually beleive that ID is at all true, then you need your head checked up on.

Really:x

 

[Reaktor4]

In science class? Plus I believe in one state that ID and Evolution must be given equal time in class. How can you posssibly give them equal time? If you give the facts then evoltion will take much longer to teach fully. And if you point the holes in each theory ID wins by a mile. How can you give them equal time?

that post nearly made my brain implode with confusion.

 

[Kangy]

I'm agnostic. I can't probe it either way, and I know that any diety out there probably knows that too. I don't think any religion of today or the past has even come close to nailing down something as inconceivable as something like God. It's just too much to comprehend. I think religion has some fantastic points if wielded correctly. It can teach a young child morals, and I think it's still got some very good points in it that still work well today. Others not so well, but that's a sign of the times.

My real problem with ID is that those supporting it always seem to point to butterflies, hummingbirds or beautiful plants. The world isn't like that. None of them ever point to bird flu, mosquitos or parasites.

 

[Reaktor4]

It can teach a young child morals

anyone can teach anyone morals.... this idea that you need to be religious to be a good person, and i know thats not exactly what youre saying, is complete bullshit.

 

[Absinthe]

Religion isn't some exclusive source of moral lessons, personal fulfillment, or anything. Anything you get out of religion can be derived from another source, sans the unbased personal relationship you may feel with a deity.

And to whoever said ID has less holes than evolution... I don't know what to say.

 

[The Monkey]

Religion is the opium of the masses.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Angry lawyer, do you belive in a multi verse. And why do you belive in God when their is no evidence?

Hope you dont mind me asking

Multiverse, as in multiple dimensions - yeah, string theory has basically set the grounding for it to be possible.

And as for believing in God - it's the fact that we can choose to believe that makes me feel he's there. The fact we can try to define what consciousness is. The way we can appreciate art. Compassion. Humour. Love. Creativity. The way we can try to define everything, and the way we can understand, and judge ourselves as cold, empty balls of souless matter.
I don't expect anyone else to believe in God, because we've been given the choice on what we believe in. To me, religion shouldn't really be about gathering together, pointing at a book and taking it as blind fact, while fearing God. It should be about finding your own relationship with God.
And anyways, believer or not, if I die and am proven wrong, it's not like I'm going to care, because I won't be able to.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Kangy]

anyone can teach anyone morals.... this idea that you need to be religious to be a good person, and i know thats not exactly what youre saying, is complete bullshit.

Ha, there we go. I never said that, so you're just grabbing for straws that were never there. Not everyone teaches their child the same way. It's a blank page, effectively, and the parent has to fill it. Of course I don't think that religious education is required to teach a child morals, but I damned well think that it is a useful tool in teaching a child morals.

I think completely disregarding all religious texts, associated culture and philosophical thinking that goes with religion is as equally stupid as believing God created the Earth.

Teaching a child messages using religion is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

 

[ríomhaire]

You can't possibly be serious.

Sorry. I should have phrased that better. I meant that when teaching these 2 if you started pointing out the holes in each theory then it would take ID a hell of a lot longer to teach than Evolution.

 

[Reaktor4]

Ha, there we go. I never said that, so you're just grabbing for straws that were never there.

I guess i didnt make myself clear enough the first time, sorry. Let me try again.

anyone can teach anyone morals.... this idea that you need to be religious to be a good person, and i know thats not exactly what youre saying, is complete bullshit.

Not everyone teaches their child the same way. It's a blank page, effectively, and the parent has to fill it. Of course I don't think that religious education is required to teach a child morals, but I damned well think that it is a useful tool in teaching a child morals.

The difference between teaching your child about how to be a good person with morals/forgiveness etc, and teaching them the same thing under the guise of religion is that with religion the reason for doing it is so you dont burn in hell when you die, rather than doing it purely because its actually the right thing to do. And the downside with adding religion is that youre filling your kids head with what amounts to lies, oh and the small matter of science and critical, rational, independant thought going straight out of the window.
Your turn.

 

[Absinthe]

Gotta agree with Reaktor on this one. Religion is in no way required as a means to an end. If you can't teach your kid that murder and rape is wrong because they're sick and depraved acts that harm other people, but instead need to rely on some mystical figure and the threat of Hell, then you're filling your kid's head with nonsense and a shoddy base for morality.

 

[Kangy]

I guess i didnt make myself clear enough the first time, sorry. Let me try again.


The difference between teaching your child about how to be a good person with morals/forgiveness etc, and teaching them the same thing under the guise of religion is that with religion the reason for doing it is so you dont burn in hell when you die, rather than doing it purely because its actually the right thing to do. And the downside with adding religion is that youre filling your kids head with what amounts to lies, oh and the small matter of science and critical, rational, independant thought going straight out of the window.
Your turn.

My turn? Fantastic.

I think you've got an incredibly ignorant view of religion if you think that it's teaching just that. Seriously, you seem to be grouping everything religious with "Conservative Christianity", and I think that's pretty showing of your ability to comprehend the affects of religion on a child.

I'd trust any child that I would raise would be able to at some point think in it's childhood, and question me about how anyone could possibly nail the concept of God down if he's so incredibly huge. I never even said what religion I'd raise my child in.

 

[Reaktor4]

then we will have to disagree. but just for silly old me, can you spell out exactly why religion is a 'useful tool' bearing in mind my and absinths last couple of posts, and why that outweighs the quite obvious and massive downsides? maybe ill finally see the light.
oh and im still waiting for all the religious people to answer the first post. only really got one answer and id like some actual quotes to back up the in gods mind thing since i dont have a bible.

 

[Kangy]

That's exactly the thing. The downsides are entirely created by the way you teach it. Aesop's Fables can teach important lessons, but you don't have to believe they actually happened like that, do you? As long as you're not saying "this is the absoloute and complete truth" while pointing to the bible, I really see very little difference.

 

[Tr0n]

Opinions are like assholes...everyone's got one.

Who says there isn't a god?Hmmm? Why attack christianty only?Why not Islam, hinduism, and buddhism?

See, I'm much like I stern...I myself use to be a baptist christian (remember I'm from the south), but later on in my life I turned away from religion and became more spiritual. In a sense I did find god/fate/surpreme being...how? Through knowledge of how the world is, will be, and who I am.

Enlightenment doesn't come from a book...it comes from the heart and mind. So what says whose god is right or whose is wrong...or whose is better?

 

[Reaktor4]

That's exactly the thing. The downsides are entirely created by the way you teach it. Aesop's Fables can teach important lessons, but you don't have to believe they actually happened like that, do you? As long as you're not saying "this is the absoloute and complete truth" while pointing to the bible, I really see very little difference.

but thats exactly what believers in the bible do do.
and these little stupid stories with morals dont teach kids anything. kids laugh at them ffs.

 

[Absinthe]

Who says there isn't a god?Hmmm? Why attack christianty only?Why not Islam, hinduism, and buddhism?

Well, Buddhism doesn't really belong there, as buddhists can be atheists.

I have issue with the underlying tenets of theism in general. If we get into specifics on faiths, I don't know enough about Islam or Hinduism to comment on them.

 

[Kangy]

but thats exactly what believers in the bible do do.
and these little stupid stories with morals dont teach kids anything. kids laugh at them ffs.

No, you're grouping the silent majority with the vocal minority, there. And I don't know about you, but that just says to me that those kids are stupid and weren't actually listening

 

[Raeven0]

I heart Jesus.

But how is that at all related to politics? Don't you people want separation of church and state? Great way to go about it, posting religion in a politics forum.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Jesus is f***ing metal. 'Nuff said.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Stigmata]

But how is that at all related to politics? Don't you people want separation of church and state? Great way to go about it, posting religion in a politics forum.

Separation of church and state. The fact that the word "state" is there means it's directly related to, or essentially is part of, politics.

To me, religion shouldn't really be about gathering together, pointing at a book and taking it as blind fact, while fearing God. It should be about finding your own relationship with God.

That's how I feel religion should be practiced, and how I would go about it if I were at all religious.

 

[Raziaar]

you are a judgmental little shit.

i only judge people on what they say, i dont take a look at someones photo and call them a nerd or whatever in a miserable attempt to make myself feel better unlike this twat.
now, go and jump off a cliff you annoying ****

but thats exactly what believers in the bible do do.
and these little stupid stories with morals dont teach kids anything. kids laugh at them ffs.

Non Judgemental? lol. In this thread you're kinda judging all religious people, my man.

<waits for the swear ridden, hate filled response that is always evident of a Reaktor4 post>

 

[Reaktor4]

Non Judgemental? lol. In this thread you're kinda judging all religious people, my man.

ha. this coming from mr death to all drug users. quote me saying i am non judgmental.
notice i didnt say all religious people i said those who believe the bible, and forgive me if im wrong, i havnt read the bible, but doesnt it say its the word of god? so if you believe what the bible says, and it says its the word of god how can you disbelieve parts of it? how can god be wrong?

<waits for the swear ridden, hate filled response that is always evident of a Reaktor4 post>

 

[DeusExMachina]

Theism is bullshit. Atheism is bullshit.

ftw.

 

[Absinthe]

Theism is bullshit. Atheism is bullshit.

ftw.

No.

sixchar