Augusto Pinochet Dead

[Solaris]

Views on Iraq

It's an article from 2004. Notable is that most Iraqis believed their lives were better after the invasion, back before the terrorist factions had a chance to **** everything up.

Also, Looking back, more Iraqis think the invasion was right than wrong, although 41% felt that the invasion "humiliated Iraq".

Erm, I'm not sure on your reading capabilities.

But it says there lives had improved since the invasion, not since Saddam.

 

[repiV]

Erm, I'm not sure on your reading capabilities.

But it says there lives had improved since the invasion, not since Saddam.

What the hell are you talking about?
I presented you with an article written by none other than the world's favourite leftist mouthpiece, the BBC, saying that a) the lives of the Iraqi people had generally improved significantly since we went in, despite the country being a warzone - a temporary state of being, and b) that the majority of Iraqis believed the invasion was right. And still you try to spin your way out of it.
Wholly predictable.

 

[KagePrototype]

Re-rail or die

 

[Bob_Marley]

Oh yes, our rock. I'm not at all patriotic so why would I care about a rock in the ocean somewhere?

Its not about the rock. Its about the people who live on said rock who have chosen (reapeatedly) to be British Citizens rather than Argentinians.

And anyway, our rock is Gibraltar.

 

[Solaris]

What the hell are you talking about?
I presented you with an article written by none other than the world's favourite leftist mouthpiece, the BBC, saying that a) the lives of the Iraqi people had generally improved significantly since we went in, despite the country being a warzone - a temporary state of being, and b) that the majority of Iraqis believed the invasion was right. And still you try to spin your way out of it.
Wholly predictable.

What?

Quote=You
Notable is that most Iraqis believed their lives were better after the invasion[Compared to before the invasion I presume]

And there are a ****load more Iraqis who want us there than Falkland islanders who wanted the Argentinians there (that would be what was once nearly all Iraqis, perhaps now about half due to incompetent military leadership,

Now your poll, does not mention how Iraqis feel with regards to when we went in, it doesn't give us any statistics.

It tells us some people think it is better than when we went in.

Support the underlined parts of what I've quoted please.

 

[koondrad]

What the hell are you talking about?
I presented you with an article written by none other than the world's favourite leftist mouthpiece, the BBC, saying that a) the lives of the Iraqi people had generally improved significantly since we went in, despite the country being a warzone - a temporary state of being, and b) that the majority of Iraqis believed the invasion was right. And still you try to spin your way out of it.
Wholly predictable.

It wasn't really a very impressive sample size and it's now well over two years old.

Look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Iraqattacksasofjuly2006.JPG

The number of attacks in March 2004 is dwarfed by the current number of attacks in Iraq. Do you think the Iraqi peoples' security is improving?

 

[gick]

What?

Quote=You
Notable is that most Iraqis believed their lives were better after the invasion[Compared to before the invasion I presume]

And there are a ****load more Iraqis who want us there than Falkland islanders who wanted the Argentinians there (that would be what was once nearly all Iraqis, perhaps now about half due to incompetent military leadership,

Now your poll, does not mention how Iraqis feel with regards to when we went in, it doesn't give us any statistics.

It tells us some people think it is better than when we went in.

Support the underlined parts of what I've quoted please.

Stop shitting up my thread :frown:

All of you!

 

[repiV]

Its not about the rock. Its about the people who live on said rock who have chosen (reapeatedly) to be British Citizens rather than Argentinians.

And anyway, our rock is Gibraltar.

Quite.

Our best rock (or series of rocks) was Hong Kong. It's a shame they sold the HKers out by just giving the whole damn place back to China. We owned Hong Kong Island, Kowloon and the minor outlying islands...the only part we were obligated to return was the New Territories which we leased from China for 99 years...but there's little more than small villages and towns in the NT.

 

[Solaris]

Stop shitting up my thread :frown:

All of you!

Hey, I didn't start it.

I'm not just going to get Lenin-slagged in every thread I post in and not respond.

 

[repiV]

It wasn't really a very impressive sample size and it's now well over two years old.

Look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Iraqattacksasofjuly2006.JPG

The number of attacks in March 2004 is dwarfed by the current number of attacks in Iraq. Do you think the Iraqi peoples' security is improving?

Of course it isn't. But that's the fault of terrorists, the sheltered Western public's inability to tolerate a full-scale war being fought which basically ensures that we will never be able to crush the insurgency (would have been an easy task if we had committed our forces properly and with devastating might) and Rumsfeld's incompetence, not the coalition forces.

 

[repiV]

What?

Quote=You
Notable is that most Iraqis believed their lives were better after the invasion[Compared to before the invasion I presume]

And there are a ****load more Iraqis who want us there than Falkland islanders who wanted the Argentinians there (that would be what was once nearly all Iraqis, perhaps now about half due to incompetent military leadership,

Now your poll, does not mention how Iraqis feel with regards to when we went in, it doesn't give us any statistics.

It tells us some people think it is better than when we went in.

Support the underlined parts of what I've quoted please.

So, it's better since we went in. They believe it's better since we went in. That's all that's important. Also, by association, can you imagine anyone on the planet saying "oh, my life is much better now, but I wish that hadn't have happened and I could keep on living in misery"? No..neither can I. If they believe it's better, than by extension they support it.

 

[Solaris]

So, it's better since we went in. They believe it's better since we went in. That's all that's important. Also, by association, can you imagine anyone on the planet saying "oh, my life is much better now, but I wish that hadn't have happened and I could keep on living in misery"? No..neither can I. If they believe it's better, than by extension they support it.

Thats ridiculous!

It's better than when we first invaded and completely ****ed the Iraqis lives up, SO THAT MUST MUSTMUSTMUSTMUSTMUSTMEAN THEY SUPPORTED THE INVASION!!??!?!??!?!

What an absurd leap of logic.

 

[kirovman]

Quite.

Our best rock (or series of rocks) was Hong Kong. It's a shame they sold the HKers out by just giving the whole damn place back to China. We owned Hong Kong Island, Kowloon and the minor outlying islands...the only part we were obligated to return was the New Territories which we leased from China for 99 years...but there's little more than small villages and towns in the NT.

We had no choice really. And the Communist party didn't recognise the treaties that the previous Emperors had been forced to sign. They viewed Hong Kong as an inseparable part of China.

As Deng Xiaoping said to Thatcher when she tried to negotiate a longer lease:

"China is no Argentina" and "We can order troops into Hong Kong this afternoon".

 

[repiV]

Thats ridiculous!

It's better than when we first invaded and completely ****ed the Iraqis lives up, SO THAT MUST MUSTMUSTMUSTMUSTMUSTMEAN THEY SUPPORTED THE INVASION!!??!?!??!?!

What an absurd leap of logic.

Well, obviously it didn't completely **** their lives up - the poll says they believe things are better.

By the way, I have a present for you. A detailed opinion survey, linked to from the very same page no less, tackling issues including "was the invasion right"?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_03_04_iraqsurvey.pdf

Edit: I put the above in a hyperlink, but it disappeared from the page.

Now, after having perused the document, please live up to your end of the bargain and never say anything bad about Iraq again.

 

[Solaris]

We had no choice really. And the Communist party didn't recognise the treaties that the previous Emperor's had been forced to sign. They viewed Hong Kong as an inseperable part of China.

As Deng Xiaoping said to Thatcher when she tried to negotiate a longer lease:

"China is no Argentina" and "We can order troops into Hong Kong this afternoon".

That showed her!

 

[Solaris]

Well, obviously it didn't completely **** their lives up - the poll says they believe things are better.

Things can be better and still be absolutely shit.

 

[repiV]

We had no choice really. And the Communist party didn't recognise the treaties that the previous Emperor's had been forced to sign. They viewed Hong Kong as an inseperable part of China.

As Deng Xiaoping said to Thatcher when she tried to negotiate a longer lease:

"China is no Argentina" and "We can order troops into Hong Kong this afternoon".

I think they should have held a national (err, or whatever the hell you would call Hong Kong at the time) referendum on the issue. Give up the New Territories to China and keep the rest British or give up the whole of Hong Kong to China. With the first option, a small amount of the population lose their homes (which, I guess, often don't mean that much in HK anyway since pretty much everyone lives in a skyscraper and rents) and there is less land to expand on but Hong Kong retains its integrity, identity and freedom.
Although, if I had been in that situation, I would have tried to negotiate for an independent Republic of Hong Kong. That's what they deserve.

 

[repiV]

Things can be better and still be absolutely shit.

What do you expect? Luxury living in an impoverished warzone?
If you acknowledge that the invasion improved the lives of the Iraqis, then what the hell are you arguing for exactly?

 

[Solaris]

What do you expect? Luxury living in an impoverished warzone?
If you acknowledge that the invasion improved the lives of the Iraqis, then exactly what the hell are you arguing for exactly?

NO NO NO.

The report says Most Iraqis think there lives have improved since the invasion that does noway imply that there lives have improved since BEFORE the invasion.

 

[Bob_Marley]

I think they should have held a national (err, or whatever the hell you would call Hong Kong at the time) referendum on the issue. Give up the New Territories to China and keep the rest British or give up the whole of Hong Kong to China. With the first option, a small amount of the population lose their homes (which, I guess, often don't mean that much in HK anyway since pretty much everyone lives in a skyscraper and rents) and there is less land to expand on but Hong Kong retains its integrity, identity and freedom.
Although, if I had been in that situation, I would have tried to negotiate for an independent Republic of Hong Kong. That's what they deserve.

Then the red would probubly have gone "hmmm... nice piece of paper", siwftly followed by a mahoosive invasion.

But yeah, I think HK should be indipendent and definetly shouldnt have to be put under socialism 50 years after the take over.

@ Solaris: Say Woo-hoo for meta-physics. Dont you just love meaningless arguments over just what particular words mean.

That showed her!

So, its OK when the Chinese threaten to invade a British protectorate despite the fact international treaties say it dosent belong to them, but the British govenment can liberate its citizens from an unwanted invading force?

And @ both Solaris & repiV: use the damn edit button!

 

[repiV]

NO NO NO.

The report says Most Iraqis think there lives have improved since the invasion that does noway imply that there lives have improved since BEFORE the invasion.

Oh...misread that one. Still, read the survey link I posted above. It still supports my claims.

 

[Solaris]

Repriv from your survey, it says 48% of the people think the invasion was right.

 

[kirovman]

I think they should have held a national (err, or whatever the hell you would call Hong Kong at the time) referendum on the issue. Give up the New Territories to China and keep the rest British or give up the whole of Hong Kong to China. With the first option, a small amount of the population lose their homes (which, I guess, often don't mean that much in HK anyway since pretty much everyone lives in a skyscraper and rents) and there is less land to expand on but Hong Kong retains its integrity, identity and freedom.
Although, if I had been in that situation, I would have tried to negotiate for an independent Republic of Hong Kong. That's what they deserve.

The Communist party would never recognise a referendum (after all, they are not democratic, and remembering that we never gave them democracy in the first place), and also, Hong Kong's food and water supplies were largely dependent on the mainland, and dividing up Hong Kong would have economic consequences.

We just didn't have any real negotiating power in that position, militarily or economically or politically.

 

[repiV]

Then the red would probubly have gone "hmmm... nice piece of paper", siwftly followed by a mahoosive invasion.

But yeah, I think HK should be indipendent and definetly shouldnt have to be put under socialism 50 years after the take over.

@ Solaris: Say Woo-hoo for meta-physics. Dont you just love meaningless arguments over just what particular words mean.

The likelihood is that by 2046, China will be a democratic, free and prosperous nation and Hong Kong will have little to worry about on that front. Certainly it appears that mainland China is copying Hong Kong more and more.
Unfortunately, Hong Kong will still lose its identity. When HK becomes just another part of China, there will probably be a mass exodus of people to other parts of the country...gradually if not immediately...where there is more space. On the flipside, you may get a lot of Chinese moving to HK.
The place has a unique cultural identity that is part Chinese and part British...and that will disappear eventually, unless Hong Kong somehow manages to gain independence. It will be a real shame for such a fascinating and incredible creation of geopolitics to be lost in the tomb of history.
You know the Hong Kong flag with five petals? Each petal represents the major ethnic groups within Hong Kong - Chinese, Caucasians, Indians, Filipinos and...I forgot the fifth.

 

[repiV]

Repriv from your survey, it says 48% of the people think the invasion was right.

And 12% couldn't make up their minds one way or another. That means 40% thought it was wrong, which is as I'm sure you will agree, a smaller number than 48.

 

[CptStern]

politics in the off-topic section? that's unpossible

 

[Solaris]

And 12% couldn't make up their minds one way or another. That means 40% thought it was wrong, which is as I'm sure you will agree, a smaller number than 48.

Yes, so a minority of people think the invasion was right.

 

[repiV]

The Communist party would never recognise a referendum (after all, they are not democratic, and remembering that we never gave them democracy in the first place), and also, Hong Kong's food and water supplies were largely dependent on the mainland, and dividing up Hong Kong would have economic consequences.

We just didn't have any real negotiating power in that position, militarily or economically or politically.

Stupid shortsighted idiots of the past should never have leased the NT.

 

[repiV]

Yes, so a minority of people think the invasion was right.

You're really clutching at straws now.
The point is, the situation in Iraq is far detached from the evil white imperialist vs noble Iraqi freedom fighter fantasy that's in your head. There are plenty of Iraqis who would call you a moron for your views on Iraq, and many who would stand side to side with US soldiers to defend their country from the terrorists.

 

[Solaris]

You're really clutching at straws now.
The point is, the situation in Iraq is far detached from the evil white imperialist vs noble Iraqi freedom fighter fantasy that's in your head. There are plenty of Iraqis who would call you a moron for your views on Iraq, and many who would stand side to side with US soldiers to defend their country from the terrorists.

I don't believe that polls accurate anyway, but it still supports my argument.

We are occupying a country where a minority of people want us there.

 

[CptStern]

You're really clutching at straws now.
The point is, the situation in Iraq is far detached from the evil white imperialist vs noble Iraqi freedom fighter fantasy that's in your head. There are plenty of Iraqis who would call you a moron for your views on Iraq, and many who would stand side to side with US soldiers to defend their country from the terrorists.

an overwhelming amount of iraqis want the US out ..surely you're talking about a very small minority

 

[repiV]

I don't believe that polls accurate anyway, but it still supports my argument.

We are occupying a country where a minority of people want us there.

Your argument was that noone wants us there, we are destroying the country and that our troops deserve everything they get for being there. Which is nothing but pure fantasy.
And now, in desperation, you're arguing over two percentage points - despite there being more people saying they do want us than than people that don't. Only people who have no point resort to such tactics.
And let's not lose sight of the original point here...that you refer to the Falklands as just a "rock in the ocean"...despite it being an infinitely nicer place to live than Iraq, and condemn Thatcher for reclaiming our territory from an invading army with no other intention in mind but forceful imperialism and no consequence but oppression against a populace entirely opposed to their presence.
Yet, you take the complete opposite stance on Iraq, a country where a very significant number of people DO want us there, a country that was oppressed to begin with and actually has the chance to become a free and prosperous democracy DESPITE our dubious intentions for going in. DESPITE that, we ARE still doing good there and if only terrorist scumbags would stop tearing the country apart and murdering people, Iraq could have hope of a brighter future.
Also, you don't refer to Iraq as just "a dune in the desert". You really seem to care about it.
So...you're an utter hypocrite. Hellbent on proving your preconceived notions correct without regard to any kind of fact or true understanding.

 

[KagePrototype]

Re-rail or die

Re-rail or die

Re-rail or die

Re-rail or die

Re-rail or die

Re-rail or die

Re-rail or die

Re-rail or die

Re-rail or die

Re-rail or die

Re-rail or die

Re-rail or die

k? k.

 

[repiV]

an overwhelming amount of iraqis want the US out ..surely you're talking about a very small minority

The article I posted was from 2004. Terrorists are mostly responsible for the decline since then, and so that's where the blame should be placed now.

 

[repiV]

k? k.

Why is the topic of discussion important to you? You were never participating and I don't see anyone else complaining. Believe it or not, conversation isn't like mathematics. It doesn't follow a logical, predictable progression up a narrow path and then stop.

 

[Bob_Marley]

So, Pinochet was a git...

 

[Nemesis6]

Never really knew that much about him, guess I should. Any specific articles you guys could recommend?

 

[KagePrototype]

Why is the topic of discussion important to you? You were never participating and I don't see anyone else complaining. Believe it or not, conversation isn't like mathematics. It doesn't follow a logical, predictable progression up a narrow path and then stop.

I understand that, but this is about keeping things in order for those who want to discuss the topic in the title. If you want to debate the Iraqis' feellings on the war, make a new thread.

 

[repiV]

It's about keeping things in order for those who want to discuss the topic in the title. If you want to debate the Iraqis' feellings on the war, make a new thread.

Nobody is stopping anyone from discussing the topic in the title. If someone has anything to say about Pinochet's death that doesn't simply provoke a "yes", "no" or "here you go" answer and is actually worth discussing, then the discussion will naturally flow back to that topic.

 

[kirovman]

Never really knew that much about him, guess I should. Any specific articles you guys could recommend?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinochet