Augusto Pinochet Dead

[KagePrototype]

Nobody is stopping anyone from discussing the topic in the title. If someone has anything to say about Pinochet's death that doesn't simply provoke a "yes", "no" or "here you go" answer and is actually worth discussing, then the discussion will naturally flow back to that topic.

Having two wholly seperate discussions going on in the same thread only frustrates those who want to focus on the one (especially if it's the topic title). It makes everyone's life easier if they were contained in seperate threads.

You're free to make a new thread, like I said.

 

[CptStern]

The article I posted was from 2004. Terrorists are mostly responsible for the decline since then, and so that's where the blame should be placed now.

here's one from 2004

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-baghdad.htm

 

[Raziaar]

I've never even heard of the guy. :|

 

[15357]

Ah, the founder of modern chle is dead. Rip.

 

[Sparta]

How can the people make an informed vote when the only media is run by rightwing companies with a very biased agenda.

If thats the case, why has there been so much backlash against leaders like Bush and Blair? You overestimate the effect of media saturation, which might i add, lots of communists do

 

[CptStern]

Ah, the founder of modern chle is dead. Rip.

rest in peace? he deserves to be torn limb from limb by hyenas and his body parts scattered throughout the countryside ..dont tell me in your naive support of everything even remotely military/right wing you've come to admire this guy?

 

[repiV]

The point that certain people here seem to miss is that while Pinochet was certainly not a good man, he did do good things for the country ... depending on who you speak to.
The case can most definitely be made that Chile was/is a far better country due to his rule than it would otherwise have been. All things in life are relative to one another.

Chile divided

There was a better article on there I read yesterday, which detailed amongst other things how he brought the country's obscene 1000% inflation rate down to 10%.

 

[gick]

The point that certain people here seem to miss is that while Pinochet was certainly not a good man, he did do good things for the country ... depending on who you speak to.
The case can most definitely be made that Chile was/is a far better country due to his rule than it would otherwise have been. All things in life are relative to one another.

Chile divided

There was a better article on there I read yesterday, which detailed amongst other things how he brought the country's obscene 1000% inflation rate down to 10%.

[Godwin] You know who else did good things for his country (depending on who you speak to), bringing down hyperinflation, saving it from those bloodthirsty commies? [/Godwin]

Seriously though, I dont give a **** if he fixed the economy. He overthrew a democratically elected government, installed a brutal military dictatorship and instituted a programme of torture and detention camps. There was no freedom of speech - anybody who was not a rabid supporter of the free market faced being locked up and tortured without trial:

According to the Latin American Institute on Mental Health and Human Rights (ILAS), "situations of extreme trauma" affected about 200,000 persons; this figure includes individuals killed, tortured (following the UN definition of torture), or exiled and their immediate families. While more radical groups such as the Movement of the Revolutionary Left were staunch advocates of violent Marxist revolution, it is currently accepted that the junta deliberately targeted nonviolent political opponents as well, making it an archetype of state terrorism.

He was one of the most evil men of the past half century.

Admittedly I have an almost personal stake in this - one of my best friends is the son of a Chilean exile who fled the country after both of his parents were 'disappeared'. So I tend to get a little wound up when people try and negate the horrific things he did by saying 'its ok because he fixed the economy'.

 

[repiV]

[Godwin] You know who else did good things for his country (depending on who you speak to), bringing down hyperinflation, saving it from those bloodthirsty commies? [/Godwin]

Seriously though, I dont give a **** if he fixed the economy. He overthrew a democratically elected government, installed a brutal military dictatorship and instituted a programme of torture and detention camps. There was no freedom of speech - anybody who was not a rabid supporter of the free market faced being locked up and tortured without trial:



He was one of the most evil men of the past half century.

Admittedly I have an almost personal stake in this - one of my best friends is the son of a Chilean exile who fled the country after both of his parents were 'disappeared'. So I tend to get a little wound up when people try and negate the horrific things he did by saying 'its ok because he fixed the economy'.

I never said it was ok. I'm simply trying to even out a little of the "Lenin, Castro and Chavez are heroes but Pinochet was evil to the bone" hypocrisy.

 

[NeptuneUK]

I hope Marget Thatcher follows him.

That's just mean, she didn't harm anyone.

 

[gick]

I never said it was ok. I'm simply trying to even out a little of the "Lenin, Castro and Chavez are heroes but Pinochet was evil to the bone" hypocrisy.

Ya ya, I know. I mainly said that to pre-empt anybody coming in here and saying 'LOL he was gr8 cuz he killed commies!', as has happened on other forums where I discussed this topic.

 

[repiV]

Ya ya, I know. I mainly said that to pre-empt anybody coming in here and saying 'LOL he was gr8 cuz he killed commies!', as has happened on other forums where I discussed this topic.

Ah, gotcha. Extremists are never great...but I don't think in absolutes. China's Hu Jintao censors free speech and opposes democracy and pretty much everything I stand for, but he's doing amazing, AMAZING things for China. Things that no other country has EVER accomplished so quickly. Things that are giving the educated Chinese and the Chinese of the prosperous areas of the country economic freedom - the freedom to progress, to make their own destiny, to live in comfort. Democracy, free speech and all those things will come naturally in time as a result of this.
For that, I admire the man. But, notably, for that and nothing else. That doesn't mean I like him.

 

[zleppelin]

Ah, gotcha. Extremists are never great...but I don't think in absolutes. China's Hu Jintao censors free speech and opposes democracy and pretty much everything I stand for, but he's doing amazing, AMAZING things for China. Things that no other country has EVER accomplished so quickly. Things that are giving the educated Chinese and the Chinese of the prosperous areas of the country economic freedom - the freedom to progress, to make their own destiny, to live in comfort. Democracy, free speech and all those things will come naturally in time as a result of this.
For that, I admire the man. But, notably, for that and nothing else. That doesn't mean I like him.

Do you also admire but dislike Hitler?

 

[repiV]

Do you also admire but dislike Hitler?

Hitler vs the current leader of China is a pretty idiotic comparison, wouldn't you agree?

 

[zleppelin]

Hitler vs the current leader of China is a pretty idiotic comparison, wouldn't you agree?

no

 

[repiV]

no

How is Hu Jintao, or, for that matter, Pinochet, Chavez or Castro, even remotely comparable to Hitler?

 

[zleppelin]

How is Hu Jintao, or, for that matter, Pinochet, Chavez or Castro, even remotely comparable to Hitler?

Some could argue that Hitler, a leader who was disliked by many and an extremist, is worthy of admiration because he accomplished great things for his country.

 

[repiV]

Some could argue that Hitler, a leader who was disliked by many and an extremist, is worthy of admiration because he accomplished great things for his country.

"Disliked by many and an extremist" is rather conservative phrasing, isn't it?
He was utterly ****ing off his rocker. His policies and his personal brand of persecution had no basis in reality and no logical argument could be used to defend them. Furthermore, he didn't really accomplish anything great for anyone. The entire world, including Germany, would be better off if he had never existed.
The vast, vast majority of the Chinese population, however, are either benefitting from Hu's rule or will do so in the future when the economic benefits hit the rural and inland regions of the country. Furthermore, Hu has not taken a free and liberal nation and turned it into tyranny. He has liberalised the country quite significantly (and I'm not just talking about the economy), therefore in comparison to how it was before and has been for a long time now, he has improved China in practically every way. As I said, it's all relative. China is a desirable place to live for many Western expats nowadays. Think about that.
The actions of Pinochet, Hu, Chavez, Castro and most other dictators you could care to name make sense from a certain rational point of view if nothing else.
Hitler is in a class all of his own - well, his class contains himself and Stalin.

 

[zleppelin]

"Disliked by many and an extremist" is rather conservative phrasing, isn't it?
He was utterly ****ing off his rocker. His policies and his personal brand of persecution had no basis in reality and no logical argument could be used to defend them. Furthermore, he didn't really accomplish anything great for anyone. The entire world, including Germany, would be better off if he had never existed.
The vast, vast majority of the Chinese population, however, are either benefitting from Hu's rule or will do so in the future when the economic benefits hit the rural and inland regions of the country. Furthermore, Hu has not taken a free and liberal nation and turned it into tyranny. He has liberalised the country quite significantly, therefore in comparison to how it was before and has been for a long time now, he has improved China in practically every way. As I said, it's all relative.
The actions of Pinochet, Hu, Chavez, Castro and most other dictators you could care to name make sense from a certain rational point of view if nothing else.
Hitler is in a class all of his own - well, his class contains himself and Stalin.

I dislike what Hitler did for many reasons, some of which you mentioned. But I also admire the amount of social control he exerted upon his people. Though I would like to clarify that my admiration for his "social" skills is way below my contempt for his actions against humanity.

 

[repiV]

Yeah but that's not the point...

I dislike Hitler for many reasons, some of which you mentioned. But I also admire the amount of social control he exerted upon his people.

O...kay...

 

[NeptuneUK]

O...kay...

I hear where he's coming from. he didnt say : Z0MG HITLER IZ TEH C00l!
apart from the whole trying to take over the world thing and holocaust... he did good things for his nation.

 

[Asknoone]

I'm not just going to get Lenin-slagged in every thread I post in and not respond.

Which is, you know, ridiculous.

 

[repiV]

I hear where he's coming from. he didnt say : Z0MG HITLER IZ TEH C00l!
apart from the whole trying to take over the world thing and holocaust... he did good things for his nation.

Well he's saying he admired the amount of social control he exerted. I just find that bizarre. Hence the "O...kay..." comment. It's just odd.
I mean, the guy's not a woman lusting after the alpha male...at least, I don't think so.

 

[NeptuneUK]

Well he's saying he admired the amount of social control he exerted. I just find that bizarre. Hence the "O...kay..." comment. It's just odd.
I mean, the guy's not a woman lusting after the alpha male...at least, I don't think so.

hehe, social control is better than total anarchy. I guess the social control was good, but not so sure about the means

 

[repiV]

hehe, social control is better than total anarchy. I guess the social control was good, but not so sure about the means

Controlled anarchy is best. There needs to be an element of national unity to have a properly functioning society, but on the other hand free debate must be allowed in order to ensure that everyone gets the best and most just "experience" of life possible.
Here in the UK, thanks to multiculturalism, we lack that element of national unity. In London at least, we don't have a society anymore. We have lots of co-existing societies that tolerate (mostly), but don't really like or interact with each other.
On the other hand, it goes slightly too far the other way in the States, where dissenting viewpoints are often suppressed by cries of "anti-American"...

According to a BBC news article from today, there are more Brits living permanently abroad (5.5 million) than any other nationality except the Chinese or Indians...and this is a very recent trend. Thanks, Blair.

 

[zleppelin]

Well he's saying he admired the amount of social control he exerted. I just find that bizarre. Hence the "O...kay..." comment. It's just odd.
I mean, the guy's not a woman lusting after the alpha male...at least, I don't think so.

Dude I have a hard time convincing my own mom to do things I know she should do like, for example, locking the doors. Now, this man convinced all these people, total strangers, to do things which were obviously not right. Could I do anything remotely like that? Could I convince someone to do something which I know is right? Could I convince someone to do something which I know is wrong? Could I convince a crowd to do any of those things? No way.

 

[repiV]

Dude I have a hard time convincing my own mom to do things I know she should do like, for example, locking the doors. Now, this man convinced all these people, total strangers, to do things which were obviously not right. Could I do anything remotely like that? Could I convince someone to do something which I know is right? Could I convince someone to do something which I know is wrong? No way.

Ahh...salesmanship. It all starts with confidence and presenting yourself as a person that people ought to pay attention to. Work on that.

 

[jondy]

Thanks, Blair.

Go on...

By the the, zleppilin or whatever, do us all a favour and don't

 

[zleppelin]

Ahh...salesmanship. It all starts with confidence and presenting yourself as a person that people ought to pay attention to. Work on that.

Salesmanship? Ok....

 

[15357]

rest in peace? he deserves to be torn limb from limb by hyenas and his body parts scattered throughout the countryside ..dont tell me in your naive support of everything even remotely military/right wing you've come to admire this guy?

Well, Thatcher says he's good, and I respect her.


But really, 3,500 politicals dead in a regime isn't such a good thing, is it? I don't admire this guy, most likely because I've never heard of him.... much...

 

[Gunner]

Some could argue that Hitler, a leader who was disliked by many and an extremist, is worthy of admiration because he accomplished great things for his country.

Don't hide behind those cowardly phrase constructions. And no, if you admire Hitler for anything, you ought to be blacklisted from work, school, life.

 

[CptStern]

Well, Thatcher says he's good, and I respect her.

so in other words I was correct in my assessment

But really, 3,500 politicals dead in a regime isn't such a good thing, is it? I don't admire this guy, most likely because I've never heard of him.... much...

yet you feel sympathetic because of ..... ?

 

[The Monkey]

I've never even heard of the guy. :|

:|

 

[Solaris]

I never said it was ok. I'm simply trying to even out a little of the "Lenin, Castro and Chavez are heroes but Pinochet was evil to the bone" hypocrisy.

Oh come the **** off it.

Chavez never rounded up ****ing musicians, broke their bones and tortured them to death. Nothing Chavez has done is REMOTELY comparable with this bastard. You think so, bring it up in the Chavez threads.

Chili was a poor country, the people democratically elected a government they thought would improve there lives, of course there was inflation, the economy was about to be flipped on it's head, so all the rich people tried to save as much of their money as possible. When you say Pinochet curbed the inflation so he's not all bad. All that was doing was helping the rich. He overthrew a democratically elected Marxist regime, imposed laws in the interest's of the rich, and violently tortured and killed anyone who opposed him.

And that fellow defending Margret Thatcher, saying "She didn't harm anybody". She was an absolutely terrible woman and a supporter of Pinochet.

 

[Asknoone]

I dislike what Hitler did for many reasons, some of which you mentioned. But I also admire the amount of social control he exerted upon his people.

Henry much?

 

[CptStern]

lol had hitler still been in power Henry would be sent to the showers .......and they wouldnt give him a towel

 

[kirovman]

Because he got caught using his alter-ego Jewish forum character?

"But wait, it's just a joke! I'm just an unemployed college graduate with too much time on my hands!"

 

[el Chi]

Anyway, sad to see an ally who helped us kick the Argies off our terretory in '82, but at the same time glad to know he wont be making any more human rights abuses.

Stalin was our ally in WW2 - does that mean we should give him the benefit of the doubt over the scores of people he killed?

he probably saved Chile from communistic revolution.

Actually he subverted and destroyed one of the first democratically elected socialist governments ever. That wasn't a blood-thirsty revolution in the manner of which you proposed, it was legal, civilised process.
Allende's government was actually going rather well until the extreme rightists of Chile and the good ol' CIA got involved and ousted a legal outcome that they didn't like.
So actually he didn't save a bloody thing.

And anyway, what's so good about "saving" a nation from this revolution you yourself are so convinced was waiting in the wings when the way in which he did this was through a totalitarian regime that destroyed democracy, banished free speech and slaughtered about 3,000 people and tortured at least 30,000 more?
(See Pinochet wiki entry for figures)

If it had been a communist dictatorship that did those same things in Chile, you would have been pretty quick off the mark to decry the evils of such a regime.
So exactly what's the difference?

The fact of the matter is that Augusto Pinochet was a vile individual - a brutal enemy of democracy, free speech and practically every other thing that supposed civilised society stands for.

 

[repiV]

Go on...

By the the, zleppilin or whatever, do us all a favour and don't

What on earth are you talking about?

Salesmanship? Ok....

Yes...the art of "making friends and influencing people". Salesmanship.

Oh come the **** off it.

Chavez never rounded up ****ing musicians, broke their bones and tortured them to death. Nothing Chavez has done is REMOTELY comparable with this bastard. You think so, bring it up in the Chavez threads.

Chili was a poor country, the people democratically elected a government they thought would improve there lives, of course there was inflation, the economy was about to be flipped on it's head, so all the rich people tried to save as much of their money as possible. When you say Pinochet curbed the inflation so he's not all bad. All that was doing was helping the rich. He overthrew a democratically elected Marxist regime, imposed laws in the interest's of the rich, and violently tortured and killed anyone who opposed him.

And that fellow defending Margret Thatcher, saying "She didn't harm anybody". She was an absolutely terrible woman and a supporter of Pinochet.

I notice you conviniently avoided mentioning Castro and Lenin, though. You can't defend them quite so easily, but you still worship them...
Yeah, Chile was a poor country, and under a socialist government it would forever remain so. There is no such thing as a prosperous left-wing country. They do not exist. Your idiotic ideas do nothing but harm the poor in the end.

 

[Solaris]

Bang on the mark there Chi.

I notice you conviniently avoided mentioning Castro and Lenin, though. You can't defend them quite so easily, but you still worship them...

I don't worship Castro, I'm not sure where I stand on him. Lenin, was a good guy, not comparable to Pinochet at all.

Yeah, Chile was a poor country, and under a socialist government it would forever remain so. There is no such thing as a prosperous left-wing country. They do not exist.

Erm.... Sweden?

Your idiotic ideas do nothing but harm the poor in the end.

Well thank god for Pinochet then.