Avatar: FernGully 2: Pocahontas Dances With Smurfs In Space In 3D On Ice

[Deleted member 56031]

I'm sure I can expect a reply about how wrong I am, which I guess can be expected since people have different opinions about films. But if I want you take away a single point, it's this:
It's hard to take your comment about Avatar being a colossal failure seriously when that's pretty much the same charge you would level at a film like Transformers 2. Avatar, for all its shortcomings, is surely of higher calibre than the kind of shit Bay and Bruckheimer pump out every summer, yes? Save it for a movie that really deserves it, please.

As much as I agree with all of your points I enjoyed armageddon more than avatar.

PLEASE DON'T KILL ME!!!

 

[Absinthe]

Avatar cost a shit load of money and made something pretty. District 9 had the budget of a romantic comedy and made something utterly believable (as opposed to ****ing night elf smurf cats). District 9 is the greater accomplishment.

I don't like this comparison.

District 9 imposed special effects on a canvas of reality. Over half of Avatar is composed digitally in creating an entire planet, flora, fauna, battle sequences, and characters for near its entire duration. I'm not knocking D9, since I loved that film as well. But Avatar is simply the more impressive film to look at, especially when you look at the methods employed in its filming. District 9 also had the advantage of working with aliens that did not resemble your typical humanoid. The Na'vi, because of their overall similarities with humans, have to go through a lot of detailed work to not fall into uncanny valley, and I personally thought Avatar never did.

Your personal dislike of night elf smurf cats isn't really a factor in that.

 

[Au-heppa]

I just saw District 9 the first time and I have to admit that it was in all areas a lot better than Avatar. Not only was the story actually good, unlike in Avatar, but the characters were actually fun to follow, too. As for the special effects/world: It's like when Valve was talking about Half-Life 2. When you take a familiar environment (the cities in both HL2 and D9, and the slums) and then add something alien into it, it's a lot more thrilling that a complete fantasy world with blue guys jumping around.

 

[Dynasty]

You cant really compare District 9 to Avatar. Its two completely different styles.

 

[nurizeko]

And yet when you do compare, District 9 still wins.

Don't get me wrong, Avatar was pretty, and the story wasn't overly bad, a bit unoriginal but hey, it was easy on the brain.

The acting wasn't too bad either. It was what it was, a very expensive well made movie of the usual movie dross, with some prettier visuals.

But D9 was glorious. It took cinema and shook it wildly then stuck some LCD down its gullet, shook it some more.

It was cheap yet the CGI was nearly flawless, the design of the aliens and their gizmos was just right, the actors were right, the protagonist was a well written and directed character set into a well written and directed story.

If I could only buy one DVD ever again and the choice was between D9 or Avatar, I'd consider my options for a minute but I'd still go with D9.


Avatar is like MW2 or Halo 3. A great release, expensive and it shows, and everyone enjoys it. But it cant hold a candle to a truly inspired cheaper but more lovingly and expertly made title.

 

[MJ12]

Seeing as how they have the technology to remote control alien bodies, I have no idea why the mechs need to be piloted at all. Remote controlling a mech suit should be easy compared to making an Avatar.

Mech Suit's don't have brains or matching DNA.

Also, a human pilot could maintain an AMP suit if it malfunctioned or was damaged. More importantly, a human pilot could provide as a second line of defense once the Mechsuit was destroyed or when it reached an area of land it could not scale or walk in.

Also it's ****ing 150 years into the future. They could have used something like a nano bomb. Program it to atack the specific DNA of the Navi, and eradicate all of them without any effort.

Yeah, that would make for a real exciting movie... Should have done that for Aliens too.

:|

 

[Remus]

Yeah, that would make for a real exciting movie... Should have done that for Aliens too.

:|

Yes, they should have. Followed by an orbital nuke bombardment, just to make sure.

 

[ríomhaire]

Am I the only one on this website who didn't like District 9? It was interesting up until they cut the bandages off the main character's hand. Then the whole film went to shit. I couldn't figure out whether it was supposed to be serious or a piss take.

Spoiler

He practically just walks out of the super secret evil base of doom and then goes gets a burger with some FOOKIN' PRAWNS. It then turns out that the stuff that infected him is spaceship fuel that turns humans into FOOKIN' PRAWNS for no apparent reason and then he breaks back into the super secret evil base of doom with a FOOKIN' PRAWN and then a giant mech appears and there's a ridiculous shootout and then Chris gets to fly home with his baby boy hurray!

 

[AJ Rimmer]

Mech Suit's don't have brains or matching DNA.

What are you talking about? I mean remote control, as in radio signals being sent to a machine in order to control its actions from great distances.

Also, a human pilot could maintain an AMP suit if it malfunctioned or was damaged. More importantly, a human pilot could provide as a second line of defense once the Mechsuit was destroyed or when it reached an area of land it could not scale or walk in.

Yes, but on the other hand they wouldn't die from getting a spear in the face. And before you go there, don't give me "The evil company doesn't care about human lives"- yes they do, they do when it takes six years to ship in a replacement.

Yeah, that would make for a real exciting movie... Should have done that for Aliens too.

They did. As soon as the alien threat is assessed properly (Maybe you weren't paying attention but we just got our asses kicked, pal) they decide to go for the easiest, most boring option (I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit [this should be the title of Avatar 2, btw]). Only things interfered in their plans.

District 9 also had the advantage of working with aliens that did not resemble your typical humanoid.

Which, in my opinion makes it harder to sell them as real, which I thought they succeeded in 100%. It is also harder to blend CGI-stuff into live action without it looking stupid.

 

[MJ12]

Am I the only one on this website who didn't like District 9? It was interesting up until they cut the bandages off the main character's hand. Then the whole film went to shit. I couldn't figure out whether it was supposed to be serious or a piss take.

Spoiler

He practically just walks out of the super secret evil base of doom and then goes gets a burger with some FOOKIN' PRAWNS. It then turns out that the stuff that infected him is spaceship fuel that turns humans into FOOKIN' PRAWNS for no apparent reason and then he breaks back into the super secret evil base of doom with a FOOKIN' PRAWN and then a giant mech appears and there's a ridiculous shootout and then Chris gets to fly home with his baby boy hurray!

Uh, well, when you describe anything in a retarded manner it's going to sound... well, retarded.

I personally love D9, as I got an extreme emotional thrill from it in the same way I did when first playing Half-Life 2.

Anyways, I think you are missing the whole point and the allegory it is presenting in the film. Wikus doesn't turn into a half prawn for shits and giggles, it's meant to show the transition from the authority to the minority.

 

[Absinthe]

I just saw District 9 the first time and I have to admit that it was in all areas a lot better than Avatar. Not only was the story actually good, unlike in Avatar, but the characters were actually fun to follow, too. As for the special effects/world: It's like when Valve was talking about Half-Life 2. When you take a familiar environment (the cities in both HL2 and D9, and the slums) and then add something alien into it, it's a lot more thrilling that a complete fantasy world with blue guys jumping around.

So you wouldn't mind if I compared Blade Runner to Star Trek and made a bunch of stupid conclusions from it, right?

They are different kinds of films. Realistic is not always superior.

 

[MJ12]

They did. As soon as the alien threat is assessed properly (Maybe you weren't paying attention but we just got our asses kicked, pal) they decide to go for the easiest, most boring option (I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit [this should be the title of Avatar 2, btw]). Only things interfered in their plans.

(Hint: Keywords in bold)

^If it wasn't for the interference, it would have been a ****ing boring ass movie. *Nerd Rant Starting* I absolutely hate when people conjure up ideas like that in order to complain about a film. There are a ton of things you can call Avatar shit for, but "Why didn't they just blow everything up" is not a good one.
-Why you ask? Because it would have been a boring, short, pointless film.

You usually don't have much to work with once you kill the opposition right in the begining of the film. People want to see struggle, people want to see battles; People do not want to see some human's programming a bomb and then detonating it, and all the "bad guys" dying and the film ending.


Also, the RDA (The bad dudes in the movie) aren't allowed to use weapons of mass destruction.

 

[Polaris]

Well, we have a guy employed by big bad militant megacorporation and his task is to relocate aliens from point A to B. While doing that he's becoming more and more like one of the aliens. He betray his employer and help aliens. This pissed off the main badass military villain who hate aliens and who want to have some mecha fight with our hero. Our hero will succeed and finally fully transform himself into an alien. Which movie is that? District 9 or Avatar?

Admit it guys, you hate Avatar just because it's popular.

 

[AJ Rimmer]

And lo, Zombieturtle did miss the point. There's a difference between what these people are doing, fighting a ground war for no apparent reason, and clearly stating that there is a reason they can't nuke the entire site from orbit. If in Aliens, immediately after the situation get FUBAR they'd simply said "Right, we just lost half our team, our mission is a bust, so let's stay down here with our light infantry weapons and try to fight them off", I'd have been pissed. Instead, they said "**** it, let's nuke the shit out of this place because we can.", and then they were unable to do so due to things crashing, exploding, venting and being eaten, and that's fine. I understand that in order to make an interesting movie, the heroes/villains can't always do the easiest thing available to them, but I just need a reason why.

"Why didn't they just blow everything up" is not a good one.
-Why you ask? Because it would have been a boring, short, pointless film.

"Why didn't James Cameron decide to blow up everything up at the start of the film?"
"That wouldn't have been a very good film."
"True, my bad, that is a stupid question. Okay, so what explanation is there for them not blowing everything up in the film, to justify this necessary plot development?"
"Durr, look at them purty pictures."

Admit it guys, you hate Avatar just because it's popular.

No, I hate Avatar because I dislike it when crappy films get loads of attention and unwarranted praise, and also there was another movie came out this year which did a variation on the same themes but much, much better.

 

[MJ12]

"Why didn't James Cameron decide to blow up everything up at the start of the film?"
"That wouldn't have been a very good film."
"True, my bad, that is a stupid question. Okay, so what explanation is there for them not blowing everything up in the film, to justify this necessary plot development?"
"Durr, look at them purty pictures."

Well-

These rights were granted to RDA in perpetuity by the Interplanetary Commerce Administration (ICA), with the stipulation that they abide by a treaty that prohibits weapons of mass destruction and limits military power in space.

/suckit,char

 

[13LACKBISHOP]

I think this is great. Watched it twice in 3D. Once with family and other with friends. I would recommend.

Well, we have a guy employed by big bad militant megacorporation and his task is to relocate aliens from point A to B. While doing that he's becoming more and more like one of the aliens. He betray his employer and help aliens. This pissed off the main badass military villain who hate aliens and who want to have some mecha fight with our hero. Our hero will succeed and finally fully transform himself into an alien. Which movie is that? District 9 or Avatar?

Admit it guys, you hate Avatar just because it's popular.

LOL

 

[Remus]

Since it's now officially war, the treaty no longer applies.

Avatar 2: Nuked from Orbit

/sukit,char

 

[AJ Rimmer]

Well-



/suckit,char

Fair enough, my point (which was what you misinterpreted) was still that I wanted an explanation, which I guess Avatar provided (though why that stops them using regular missiles from orbit, airplanes instead of weird choppers, ground-based missile batteries or artillery I've no idea), and that (as you claimed) wanting an explanation for why characters in movies ignore the by far simplest option is not retarded.

Well, we have a guy employed by big bad militant megacorporation and his task is to relocate aliens from point A to B. While doing that he's becoming more and more like one of the aliens. He betray his employer and help aliens. This pissed off the main badass military villain who hate aliens and who want to have some mecha fight with our hero. Our hero will succeed and finally fully transform himself into an alien. Which movie is that? District 9 or Avatar?

The film Barb Wire from 1996, starring Pamela Anderson as a big-boobed superhero has the exact same plot as Casablanca. Does that mean I'm not allowed to dislike it? If you break the plot down to a basic enough level, you can make lots of movies seem exactly the same. In D9, the transformation is something the main character has forced upon him, and tries desperately to get rid of. The big bad megacorporation is not intruding on the aliens' lands, but rather the movie deals with a much more common and relevant form of racism, and how to treat refugees. Also, Wikus isn't really the hero, certainly the protagonist, but the man who saves the day and solves the problem is one of the aliens, with Wikus' help. The two films are similar, but they are not carbon copies. I just feel that of the two movies that came out this year that deal with racism towards aliens and fighting in mech suits, D9 wins.

 

[Tagaziel]

Avatar cost a shit load of money and made something pretty. District 9 had the budget of a romantic comedy and made something utterly believable (as opposed to ****ing night elf smurf cats). District 9 is the greater accomplishment.

District 9 was created from scratch as a mock documentary, so it's obvious it's going to be believeable, Sherlock.

I love both movies, but I've seen Avatar three times and am going again on Monday. D-9 I saw only once.

And yet, an arrow pierces right through it.

Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest son-of-a-bitch in space, AJ. Ever heard of a thing called momentum?

http://www.pandorapedia.com/doku.php/scorpion_gunship

However, it is rumored that a Na’vi firing in a vertical attack dive can generate enough combined velocity (between the 40-meter-per-second release-velocity of the arrow from the bow, and the 120 knot dive speed) that the two-meter -ong arrow can hit with sufficient kinetic energy to penetrate the Scorpion canopy if fired at close range.

120 knots equals to 62 m/s. Add to that the 40 m/s release velocity and you get a pretty decent speed for a two meter long projectile. Wish I knew the weight of the arrow, though.

 

[ríomhaire]

Uh, well, when you describe anything in a retarded manner it's going to sound... well, retarded.

That is true, while watching most of the second half of District 9 I was sitting there thinking "What it this shit?" It seemed like it was trying so hard to be serious and failing miserably. To me it seemed like Avatar's plot was more coherent that District 9's.

Also, AJ, you bitch about a private mining company not using nuclear bombs that they're banned from using that would take six years and billions of dollars to ship to Pandora and you're perfectly fine with the ending of District 9 when they're interviewing people about Wikus and a guy says something along the lines of "I looked into the company's files and they had stuff detailing their evil plans that they didn't even do a good job of hiding"?

 

[AJ Rimmer]

Ever heard of a thing called momentum?

Ever heard of a thing called an RPG? Cause that's the kinda stuff I'd make sure this canopy could withstand. It goes faster than that arrow, and it explodes on impact.

Also, AJ, you bitch about a private mining company not using nuclear bombs that they're banned from using

When have I bitched about nuclear bombs? I said I wanted a reason for them not using it and when someone gave me that reason I accepted it! Granted, they might not have had access to any other weaponry except the crappy mech suits and the admittedly quite cool and effective chopper-things, so I might be in the wrong with my little missiles and artillery tirade.

and you're perfectly fine with the ending of District 9 when they're interviewing people about Wikus and a guy says something along the lines of "I looked into the company's files and they had stuff detailing their evil plans that they didn't even do a good job of hiding"?

And the US government failed to cover up a break-in into a shitty hotel in Washington, I have no problems accepting hubris, it's one of the oldest traditions in drama. I also perfectly accept that the guys in Avatar suffered from it and thought they could defeat the Na'avi (a completely reasonable assumption to make, especially after they whooped their asses and burned their tree). I have a problem with badly realized ideas, something which I think sums Avatar up pretty well.

 

[Wizard]

The arrows initially just bounced right off the hull of the ship. I don't think it's too far beyond belief to accept that a BIG arrow going extraordinarily fast could penetrate glass. Structurally, glass is a weak material compared to the rest of the ship.

What I don't fully understand is that why they even used glass in a gunship. Surely they would have developed some sort of virtual interface, with sensors and cameras displaying a view of the outside. Given sensor failure, the cockpit shielding would open up to allow natural visibility.

 

[AJ Rimmer]

The arrows initially just bounced right off the hull of the ship. I don't think it's too far beyond belief to accept that a BIG arrow going extraordinarily fast could penetrate glass. Structurally, glass is a weak material compared to the rest of the ship.

What I don't fully understand is that why they even used glass in a gunship. Surely they would have developed some sort of virtual interface, with sensors and cameras displaying a view of the outside. Given sensor failure, the cockpit shielding would open up to allow natural visibility.

This was my whole point. It's just. Effin'. Stupid.

*EDIT Although we were talking about the mech suits. Gunship canopys are probably less susceptible to ground fire from small arms or rifle rounds on account of them being on top of the gunship, and anything fired from above from a plane or other chopper would be designed to punch through the hull anyway. Still, you're right- if they have the technology, they should definitely use it.

 

[Remus]

The only plausible explanation is that the mech suits and the "choppers" were initially built for civilian use and they just did some quick modifications to them so they could be used by the security force.

 

[13LACKBISHOP]

Stop overthinking the goddamn movie everybody.

Oh wait -

Nevermind. This is a forum. Carry on.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Believability concerns in Avatar are really important because the whole movie is predicated on being able to totally immerse you in this world. I enjoyed the first half more than the second half exactly because the first half kept up my belief in what I was seeing, and during the second half the believability (as distinct from 'realism') started to slip.

D9 was good, but unashamedly pulpy with quite a weak, conventional plot. People saying that aspect of it was head and shoulders above of Avatar's are overstating the case.

 

[Tagaziel]

Ever heard of a thing called an RPG? Cause that's the kinda stuff I'd make sure this canopy could withstand. It goes faster than that arrow, and it explodes on impact.

Uh, because it's an powersuit, not a tank with legs? As I said, Mechwarrior made us accustomed to heavily armoured, walking tanks, not agile, relatively well armoured power suits. Key difference: AMP suit is an upscaled soldier that can carry tank-class weaponry and have the same mobility. A mech is a tank with legs that can carry an armoury and costs just slightly less than the pope's diamond encrusted pooper.

Short version: It's clearly based on Cameron's utility powersuit from Aliens.

What I don't fully understand is that why they even used glass in a gunship. Surely they would have developed some sort of virtual interface, with sensors and cameras displaying a view of the outside. Given sensor failure, the cockpit shielding would open up to allow natural visibility.

Cost effectiveness, not to mention that the human eye is the best kind of sensor. You cut out the middleman and simply augment the eye with visors, achieving the same performance at a much smaller cost.

 

[Wizard]

But imagine what kind of tactical advantage you could get by letting computers and senors highlight enemy combatants! I just think it would have been cooler.

But Remus is probably right. I doubt they thought the Na'vi even existed on the planet before they set up shop, let alone that they were a formidable enemy.

 

[ríomhaire]

I agree with grizzly totally here. They were not planning on fighting an all out was. Plus bringing anything to pandora is incredibly expensive. As someone said earlier those suits are probably used for heavy lifting and maintenance work too, not specifially to be tanks. They didn't need tanks. They were fighting giant cat smurfs and they were winning up until a nature god and someone who knew their tactics and weaknesses intervened. Shipping heavy artillery to pandora would be idiotic and financial suicide.

 

[brad92]

its colossal shortcomings and failures. In what way can one actually spring to the defence of that plot, and those characters?

Incidentally, you have not actually provided any reasonable argument or response that substantiates your position; why is it appalling, Samon? Consequently, you have merely spouted worthless derogatory dribble.

That isn't to say I necessarily disagree. But as it stands, your argument for this film is worthless.

 

[Au-heppa]

So you wouldn't mind if I compared Blade Runner to Star Trek and made a bunch of stupid conclusions from it, right?

They are different kinds of films. Realistic is not always superior.

A lot of the fanboys have been saying how immersed Avatars gets you, but for me the cartoonic blue world just didn't do it, while D9's Earth environment made it believable.

 

[MJ12]

Oh dear lord, the Colonel's head-

Spoiler

 

[Bad^Hat]

Short version: It's clearly based on Cameron's utility powersuit from Aliens.

Heh. Compared to this, glass is a downright luxury.

 

[Absinthe]

A lot of the fanboys have been saying how immersed Avatars gets you, but for me the cartoonic blue world just didn't do it, while D9's Earth environment made it believable.

So you're saying Avatar would have been better suited with an environment like District 9's? I don't think the comparison is really valid. I understand that there are strengths in imbuing alien qualities into regular, earthly settings ala D9 and Half-Life 2. But not every sci-fi film needs to be like those. It sounds to me like you're saying we should set aside the fantastical and instead focus on gritty realism only. That's an extremely narrow-minded and restricting view in my opinion.

Now, if you're saying Avatar failed in portraying its universe effectively, that would be a more legitimate complaint. But all I'm reading is "SHIT HAD COLORS AND BLUE CAT PEOPLE, SUCKS".

 

[Shyam]

It was cheap yet the CGI was nearly flawless, the design of the aliens and their gizmos was just right, the actors were right, the protagonist was a well written and directed character set into a well written and directed story.

I have to disagree with this. District 9 and Avatar are both simple sci-fi action movies. I don't agree when people attribute to District 9 the features of a deep thoughtful sci-fi movie. At it's heart it's an action movie in the same vein as Avatar. To me the plot at times was brilliant, but scatter shot. But what impressed me the most is the fact that D9 was Neil Blomkamp's first foray into feature length movie making. And I say it's a great debut. You have to remember that James Cameron is a Hollywood veteran and the fact that Neil's movie can compete quality wise is an impressive achievement.

D9 was good, but unashamedly pulpy with quite a weak, conventional plot. People saying that aspect of it was head and shoulders above of Avatar's are overstating the case.

This. In terms of plot D9 and Avatar stand on the same level, maybe with D9 slightly above.

 

[MJ12]

I don't agree when people attribute to District 9 the features of a deep thoughtful sci-fi movie. At it's heart it's an action movie in the same vein as Avatar.

This. In terms of plot D9 and Avatar stand on the same level, maybe with D9 slightly above.

Oh don't ****ing kid yourself, it's all about execution.

"Dur, Equalibrium and Children of Men pretty much have the same plot cuz thur set in an Orwellian universe and they both got action."

 

[Sulkdodds]

He was talking about 'level of complexity', not 'surface similarity'. And Children of Men is a bad example. It doesn't have a very striking or intricate or clever plot either. For the most part the story is that of a conventional road movie or journey, which often seems like a pretext for evocative world-building and amazing set-pieces. I'm tempted to say Equilibrium actually has a 'stronger' story - it's just not one that's executed very well.

EDIT: Oh, I see more clearly what you're responding to. But he's sort of right right. D9 isn't supremely clever as a social parable. After the first ten minutes, it's not a fake documentary either. Nor is it body or psychological horror, much as it might borrow from The Fly. It's not a character drama and it's not a screwball comedy. It's an action film, as borne out by its final 45 minutes. It isn't THAT close to Avatar, because of some big differences in execution, but nor does it stand on some other level high above it.

Also that's it I'm spoilering your picture ZT. You're the cause of all the problems on this page

 

[xcellerate]

So I was watching "The Core" this weekend and guess the name of the metal their ship was made out of....


unobtanium.

 

[Shyam]

Oh don't ****ing kid yourself, it's all about execution.

"Dur, Equalibrium and Children of Men pretty much have the same plot cuz thur set in an Orwellian universe and they both got action."

Why you gotta be so aggressive man ? Chill. Sulkdodds spilled it out for you. I was comparing Avatar and District 9 in terms of the fact that they are both action movies. The similarities end there. Except for the fact that the protagonists end up transforming into the aliens the Humans are oppressing and Humans are the bad guys.

 

[MJ12]

Also that's it I'm spoilering your picture ZT. You're the cause of all the problems on this page

But his head is huuuggeeee