Believe in Evolution?

[Steve]

I'm on the fence on this issue.

Well, not even that. I'm open to any and every idea. I haven't yet found enough convincing evidence to sway me in any direction.

I should, however, note that I do believe in evolution to a certain extent. I don't see how anyone could possibly travel to the Galapagos islands, see a flightless comorant, and not believe that some form of evolution is real. I'm just unsure as to whether or not we humans came about.

 

[Que-Ever]

I don't know what's going on.

ok, check this out, mormon to the rescue:
alright, so there's a god, right? and he had all these infinite number of souls and stuff in heaven. he has this plan, which is to send all the souls to earth in bodies to test them and see if they'll still follow him even when they are given free agency. God wants to choose someone to send down to eb an example. His choices are Jesus and Lucifer, because they're the most important or whatever. Jesus is like, I'll go down and tell everyoen how awesome you are, adn the glory would be all yours. Satan is all, I don't think we should even GIVE people free agency, just make them do what you want and it's guaranteed that they'll come back to you! And meanwhile, I'll be stealing your glory. THe god is all, No way man, Jesus is better at this then you, I'll send him down. Then satan is like, pff... fine. So he goes and he manages to get a whole third of the souls up in heaven to follow him, then he attacks all of god's souls! and god is like, no way, man! and he banishes satan and all his little demons down to hell.
After this, god sends down adam and eve in the first bodies, and tells them to be good, and have children. Make population. Then adam and eve are hanging out, but they don't know how to make kids! But then satan comes along as the snake, yadda yadda. God knew about it see, but he lets satan run around and do his thing because A, it'll test whether or not people will still follow the god path even when satan's tempting them, and B, God's gonna get all his souls back anyway because after people die, their souls are sent back up to heaven to get educated (unless they're like, super evil). So, like, Satan is pretty screwed no matter what, man.

****, my california is leaking.

Anyway, now about evolution specifically:
It took god six days to make the earth and aminals and all, right? Well, it doesn't specify whether it's earth days, or god days. apparently god seconds are like, a hundred years long or something, so if god made animals on whatever day, by the time he made humans, the animals could've way evolved already. Like, all he did was put those little simming smegs in the slime, and by the time everything else was done, they were elephants and bears and stuff.

 

[Raziaar]

Like, DUDE MAN DUDE, Surf's up!

 

[Que-Ever]

Like, DUDE MAN DUDE, Surf's up!

hell yeah, man. Wave's are killer!

I don't surf, though :/

 

[CptStern]

I don't know what's going on.

ok, check this out, mormon to the rescue:
alright, so there's a god, right? and he had all these infinite number of souls and stuff in heaven. he has this plan, which is to send all the souls to earth in bodies to test them and see if they'll still follow him even when they are given free agency. God wants to choose someone to send down to eb an example. His choices are Jesus and Lucifer, because they're the most important or whatever. Jesus is like, I'll go down and tell everyoen how awesome you are, adn the glory would be all yours. Satan is all, I don't think we should even GIVE people free agency, just make them do what you want and it's guaranteed that they'll come back to you! And meanwhile, I'll be stealing your glory. THe god is all, No way man, Jesus is better at this then you, I'll send him down. Then satan is like, pff... fine. So he goes and he manages to get a whole third of the souls up in heaven to follow him, then he attacks all of god's souls! and god is like, no way, man! and he banishes satan and all his little demons down to hell.
After this, god sends down adam and eve in the first bodies, and tells them to be good, and have children. Make population. Then adam and eve are hanging out, but they don't know how to make kids! But then satan comes along as the snake, yadda yadda. God knew about it see, but he lets satan run around and do his thing because A, it'll test whether or not people will still follow the god path even when satan's tempting them, and B, God's gonna get all his souls back anyway because after people die, their souls are sent back up to heaven to get educated (unless they're like, super evil). So, like, Satan is pretty screwed no matter what, man.

****, my california is leaking.

Anyway, now about evolution specifically:
It took god six days to make the earth and aminals and all, right? Well, it doesn't specify whether it's earth days, or god days. apparently god seconds are like, a hundred years long or something, so if god made animals on whatever day, by the time he made humans, the animals could've way evolved already. Like, all he did was put those little simming smegs in the slime, and by the time everything else was done, they were elephants and bears and stuff.

you cant be serious

 

[Que-Ever]

you cant be serious

serious with what, bitch?

 

[Raziaar]

you cant be serious

What if he is?

But seriously... we religious folk believe in god just like you believe in your son to grow up successful with you as a father... Who's to say the other is wrong?


Oops... no. That was unnecessarily cruel of me. Forgive me, CptStern. That was uncalled for.

 

[Direwolf]

Mecha: its not a bad thing to debate the existence of god using proofs and other logical forms, but don't take those things to be end all be all answers when it comes to stuff like God.

Cockroaches can communicate with other cockroaches. When you squish one before it can run under the fridge, do you suppose the other cockroaches understand why you did it? Do they comprehend your belief that cockroaches can transmit disease, are unsanitary, are disgusting, and any other motivations you may have had? The simple answer is of course no. They lack not only the sensory and mental power for such deductions, but also the means for communication complex enough to convey them.

If thats the comprehension gap between cockroaches and us, another earthly carbon-based lifeform, can you even imagine the gap that would exist between us and a supreme being? We wouldn't be even remotely capable of guessing its intent, and our ideas of logic and causality would fail utterly in the face of something so alien.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Until then, I say good luck wasting your time. I'll continue to worship my god no matter what anybody says, and keep it between myself and god. At least i'll feel fulfilled in my desire to do so.

I'm not disproving god. Creation science is.
For the record, you know who to blame.

What god burrito proves is that it is (obviously) not possible to defy an omnipotent being.

Since god set out to have people defy him, that means that any defiance the devil and mankind make is all part of god's plan.
This means we aren't actually defying him, and that it is, in fact, literally impossible for god to defy himself.

This means he must have a major flaw, and creation science proves he is fake.

I still laugh when I hear these things. They're rediculous. It's people striving to try to prove that god isn't real, based on their own logic of the situation. Logic which is obviously not the most advanced.

Alright, show me any flaw in the logic. I'll give you a million e-dollars if ya do.

To what end? I mean... why is it that people strive to disprove god endlessly, like it'll somehow accomplish something?

Ask the creation scientists. They're the ones who've disproved god's existence.

It'll never accomplish anything, because since the BEGINNING OF RELIGION, there has always been people trying to disprove god, going against the grain. And guess what? It hasn't changed anything.

There is a difference between "trying" and "succeeding".

Creation scientists have successfully killed god.

Point in case, don't waste your breath, you'll live your life feeling like you wasted time on something you don't even believe in.

I didn't waste any time.
Disproving god took less than a few minutes.
Compared to how long religion has spent creating him, this is probably the most efficient use of time in the history of man.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

cockroaches

The concept of infinity, as an abstract, is very easily understood with only limited logical skill, and is not a variable.

When I crush a cockroach, I am not claiming to be infinite.
God, as the creation scientists tell us, is making that claim.
(Not that I would crush a cockroach. That's gross and mean. )

 

[Raziaar]

Creation scientists have successfully killed god.

Nietzsche said god is dead... why do people still worship god?

Oh right, because what he said didn't change ANYTHING.

God isn't dead. There's nothing to PROVE god exists, except the unyielding faith and belief of his followers. The vast majority of the world believes in god/gods in one form or another. This won't change as time goes on, unless people who don't believe in god try to oppress and suppress the believers.]


If you think you can disprove the existence of an omnipotent being, or beings... you must also PROVE the existence of the universe and existence as we know it. Science has not done so, and *CANNOT* do so. Its impossible, because its BEYOND THE UNDERSTANDING of science and mankind as a whole. Even if everything after the bigbang is fact, that doesn't begin to prove existence before the big bang.

From nothingness you can't create something without anything creating that something. It just doesn't happen.

 

[CptStern]

What if he is?

But seriously... we religious folk believe in god just like you believe in your son to grow up successful with you as a father... Who's to say the other is wrong?


Oops... no. That was unnecessarily cruel of me. Forgive me, CptStern. That was uncalled for.

I dont believe he'll be succesful I know he will ...good parenting goes a long way ...and yes it was a low blow ..attack me all you want but have the decency to keep my family out of it ..I've never ever brought your family (or anyone elses' family) into a conversation, I would appreciate it if you did the same. BTW I hope in real life you dont randomly insult people's families ..it's a good way to become seperated from your front teeth

 

[Direwolf]

The concept of infinity, as an abstract, is very easily understood with only limited logical skill, and is not a variable.

When I crush a cockroach, I am not claiming to be infinite.
God, as the creation scientists tell us, is making that claim.
(Not that I would crush a cockroach. That's gross and mean. )

Yeah, but thats making a disqualification based on language, and possibly our limits of understanding. What if God's not really infinite, and is just bigger than we as humans can understand?

Edit: You kinda have to read into Raziaar's statement while thinking he's a jerk to perceive some kind of insult from it. On the face of it a "father-son" relationship between God and human beings probably wouldn't be all that far-fetched.

 

[Raziaar]

I dont believe he'll be succesful I know he will ...good parenting goes a long way ...and yes it was a low blow ..attack me all you want but have the decency to keep my family out of it ..I've never ever brought your family (or anyone elses' family) into conversation, I would appreciate it if you did the same. BTW I hope in treal life you dont randomly insult people's family ..it's a good way to get you seperated from your front teeth

I was actually joking... which is why I put that disclaimer on and didn't edit my post. it wasn't a funny joke, but it was still a joke nonetheless. Although maybe you'll see the similarities in our situations... you mocking my religion and faith is no different than me mocking your life and family. It's not something I would EVER do in real life, as I am the kindest person you would ever meet in person... however, you should know that insulting ones religion can be just as worse for that person as insulting their family.

Case in point... we need to learn to lighten up. This is the only reason I ever made such a statement... so you can see just how it FEELS to have somebody mock and insult what you believe in, what you love, what you live for. You live for your son, your family... their happiness... I live for those things too, although tailored to my life, but I also live for my religion and faith to god.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

What if God's not really infinite, and is just bigger than we as humans can understand?

Well, then that means the bible, creation science, and basically everything that has ever described an infinite god all have to be wrong.

But that would be silly. Everyone knows religion is true.

 

[CptStern]

I was actually joking... which is why I put that disclaimer on and didn't edit my post. it wasn't a funny joke, but it was still a joke nonetheless.

yes by putting a disclaimer you didnt mean it :upstare: why bother saying it all if you didnt believe it at least in part? ...dont joke about people's family

Although maybe you'll see the similarities in our situations... you mocking my religion and faith is no different than me mocking your life and family. It's not something I would EVER do in real life, as I am the kindest person you would ever meet in person... however, you should know that insulting ones religion can be just as worse for that person as insulting their family.

no, it's not even remotely similiar. That's like saying my favourite book is comparable to the life of a human being

Case in point... we need to learn to lighten up.

speak for yourself, I dont go around insulting people's families. When/if you have your own family one day you'll understand ..I'd gladly give my life for mine

 

[Direwolf]

Well the idea of the Bible is that its a human chronicle of otherworldly events. To steal an apt phrase from Dan Brown: "The Bible was not received directly by fax from heaven." Thats what Christianity believes, and its the reason that theres not ONE form of Christianity, but rather hundreds of variations (Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, Baptistst, etc). Christianity as a whole is well aware of the fallibility of humans. Its practically the basis of the entire religion.

And Stern: Don't underestimate peoples feelings about God. Religion IS more important to many people than family.

 

[Raziaar]

yes by putting a disclaimer you didnt mean it :upstare: why bother saying it all if you didnt believe it at least in part? ...dont joke about people's family

no, it's not even remotely similiar. That's like saying my favourite book is comparable to the life of a human being


speak for yourself, I dont go around insulting people's families

If you can't learn to respect and be nice about my religion, why should I learn to respect and be nice about your family? All i'm saying, is people who believe in religion, they take it SERIOUSLY. they take it as seriously as you take the safety and success of your family, believe it or not.

So when you laugh and you mock and you tease people about their religion, trying to invalidate their life, telling them their wasting it... expect to be taken with a grain of salt when you complain when the same is directed at you in retaliation, against the things you love.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

"The Bible was not received directly by fax from heaven."

Well that means that:

A- God can't fax. And by "fax" I mean "convey information in such a way as it is easily understood."
or
B- God wants to mess with us.

Both those disprove infinity, because being unable to fax and having wants are both flaws.

 

[Raziaar]

"The Bible was not received directly by fax from heaven."
Then that means that:

A- God can't fax. And by "fax" I mean convey information in such a way as for it to be understood.
or
B- God wants to mess with us.

Both those disprove infinity.

I am still waiting for your proof that the universe exists without the aid of an all powerful being or beings. if you can disprove god, surely you can prove what science cannot?

 

[Direwolf]

OR as Christains believe, it means God created humans without the intention of directly controlling their lives. They have a choice between good, evil, and any shades of gray they want to come up with. Its how christianity explains why bad stuff even exists.

 

[CptStern]

If you can't learn to respect and be nice about my religion, why should I learn to respect and be nice about your family?

wtf? I cant believe I have to actually explain the difference between a human being and a faith system. IT IS NOT REMOTELY SIMILIAR. You have zero say in your religion, you have have no part in shaping it, no part in influencing it ..your faith is immaterial, it only exists in your mind (and those of the faithful) my family is flesh and blood, they have emotions feelings etc, religion has none of this.

All i'm saying, is people who believe in religion, they take it SERIOUSLY. they take it as seriously as you take the safety and success of your family, believe it or not.

I dont give a **** how serious you take it, you cannot comapre faith system to an innocent 2 year old boy. Your reasoning is completely absurd. I could have let it slide, but you're adamnet that a faith system is as equally important as a human life, that's just ludicrous and insulting

 

[Direwolf]

Stern: How many people have believed in their religion so strongly that they, and often their families, died for it? Raziaar wouldn't be the first to believe that firmly.

I don't think Raziaar is actually advocating that particular viewpoint, he's just pointing out that you had no way of knowing he didn't initially.

 

[Steve]

wtf? I cant believe I have to actually explain the difference between a human being and a faith system. IT IS NOT REMOTELY SIMILIAR. You have zero say in your religion, you have have no part in shaping it, no part in influencing it ..your faith is immaterial, it only exists in your mind (and those of the faithful) my family is flesh and blood, they have emotions feelings etc, religion has none of this.
I dont give a **** how serious you take it, you cannot comapre faith system to an innocent 2 year old boy. Your reasoning is completely absurd. I could have let it slide, but you're adamnet that a faith system is as equally important as a human life, that's just ludicrous and insulting

Stern, are you saying that people aren't allowed to have similar feelings about intangible things as you feel for your son?

I assure you, some people are more than capable.

 

[CptStern]

the capability is there (people can be obessed/love about anything) ..but to compare the two is rediculous. There is no comparison

does my love for chocolate = that of the love for my son? apples and oranges

 

[Raziaar]

wtf? I cant believe I have to actually explain the difference between a human being and a faith system. IT IS NOT REMOTELY SIMILIAR. You have zero say in your religion, you have have no part in shaping it, no part in influencing it ..your faith is immaterial, it only exists in your mind (and those of the faithful) my family is flesh and blood, they have emotions feelings etc, religion has none of this.




I dont give a **** how serious you take it, you cannot comapre faith system to an innocent 2 year old boy. Your reasoning is completely absurd. I could have let it slide, but you're adamnet that a faith system is as equally important as a human life, that's just ludicrous and insulting

Just because one puts their spirituality on a higher plane than their mortality, doesn't mean they treat their families any less, or love them any less than you love yours. They just have made the extra room to include their faith into it. They also include their FAMILIES into their faith, because they believe their faith will give their families, the ones they love in this mortal realm, eternal happiness. So you see, they love their kin just as much as you.

 

[CptStern]

there is nothing tangible about religion, if I prick it, it does NOT bleed

oh and dont put words in my mouth by saying that I dont believe someone can have faith AND love their family ..it is NOT mutually exclusive

 

[Mechagodzilla]

I am still waiting for your proof that the universe exists without the aid of an all powerful being or beings.

Uh, creation scientists already did prove that.

Either the universe exists within the confines of finite natural laws (and therefore renders god a "maybe" at best, since his existence is not required), or there is absolutely no god.

An un-natural universe must be created by an un-natural god.
And an un-natural god must be infinite and therefore false.

I, with the help of creation science(tm) have already proven this stuff, so reversing the burden of proof does not disprove me.

It is now up to you to earn your e-million e-bucks, cowman.

Go "4" it!

 

[Raziaar]

Uh, creation scientists already did prove that.

Well... they only proved it because they believe god created the universe. They only proved it for themselves.

How does someone such as yourself, who doesn't believe in a god or a powerful being, believe the universe was created? I'm asking for a true to science, no hocus pocus, proof explanation, to prove it to the non faithful masses.

 

[Direwolf]

Either the universe exists within the confines of finite natural laws (and therefore renders god a "maybe" at best, since his existence is not required)

I think this is in fact very close to what Creationists believe. They don't seem to believe that God set up a totally nonsensical system that is incapable of operating without him. They do seem to believe that the system wouldn't have been created in the first place if not for him though. And that without his guidance the earth would be a much worse place. That said, Creationists are a funny bunch. Their beliefs can vary widely from group to group.

 

[CptStern]

Well... they only proved it because they believe god created the universe. They only proved it for themselves.

How does someone such as yourself, who doesn't believe in a god or a powerful being, believe the universe was created? I'm asking for a true to science, no hocus pocus, proof explanation, to prove it to the non faithful masses.

I dont see why he has to quantify it in terms that are non "hocus pocus" ..religion has been relying on that explanation since the very beginning


there is NO scientfic proof that supports creationism, none whatsoever

 

[Raziaar]

* God rolls 1d∞.

Mankind suffers through WW3 as a result.

I dont see why he has to quantify it in terms that are non "hocus pocus" ..religion has been relying on that explanation is the very beginning


there is NO scientfic proof that supports creationism, none whatsoever

What i've been asking... is if he can disprove god, without a doubt, 100% fact provable to the end of mankind(which he seems certain), then surely with that amazing ability of piercing the unknown, he can also prove what mankind has never been able to? The existence of all as we know it, prior to the big bang. Something had to create it all, what created it? And what created that? And that, and that and that?

You prove all of that, without a doubt, and show me some sort of powerful being had nothing to do with it, and i'll cease to believe in god. Until then, I will continue to.

Fact of the matter is, there are things science cannot disprove. It cannot disprove god if it cannot prove existence. It's still a mystery.

 

[Direwolf]

Its trying to prove a negative. A logical fallacy in itself when it comes to something we only partly understand.

 

[Zuckerhutbomber]

I just want to quote something:

"Creationists and evolutionists, Christians and non-Christians all have the same evidence—the same facts. Think about it: we all have the same earth, the same fossil layers, the same animals and plants, the same stars—the facts are all the same.

The difference is in the way we all interpret the facts. And why do we interpret facts differently? Because we start with different presuppositions. These are things that are assumed to be true, without being able to prove them. These then become the basis for other conclusions. All reasoning is based on presuppositions (also called axioms). This becomes especially relevant when dealing with past events.[...]

We all exist in the present—and the facts all exist in the present. When one is trying to understand how the evidence came about (Where did the animals come from? How did the fossil layers form? etc.), what we are actually trying to do is to connect the past to the present.

However, if we weren’t there in the past to observe events, how can we know what happened so we can explain the present? It would be great to have a time machine so we could know for sure about past events.

Christians of course claim they do, in a sense, have a ‘time machine’. They have a book called the Bible which claims to be the Word of God who has always been there, and has revealed to us the major events of the past about which we need to know.

On the basis of these events (Creation, Fall, Flood, Babel, etc.), we have a set of presuppositions to build a way of thinking which enables us to interpret the evidence of the present.

Evolutionists have certain beliefs about the past/present that they presuppose, e.g. no God (or at least none who performed acts of special creation), so they build a different way of thinking to interpret the evidence of the present.

Thus, when Christians and non-Christians argue about the evidence, in reality they are arguing about their interpretations based on their presuppositions.

That’s why the argument often turns into something like:

‘Can’t you see what I’m talking about?’

‘No, I can’t. Don’t you see how wrong you are?’

‘No, I’m not wrong. It’s obvious that I’m right.’

‘No, it’s not obvious.’ And so on.

These two people are arguing about the same evidence, but they are looking at the evidence through different glasses.

It’s not until these two people recognize the argument is really about the presuppositions they have to start with, that they will begin to deal with the foundational reasons for their different beliefs. A person will not interpret the evidence differently until they put on a different set of glasses—which means to change one’s presuppositions."

Source

 

[Mechagodzilla]

How does someone such as yourself, who doesn't believe in a god or a powerful being, believe the universe was created? I'm asking for a true to science

Under true science, the answer is "not god".

In other words, the universe's existence must be possible without a creative force, which renders god's role in the creation unecessary.

 

[Raziaar]

I wonder... if there are aliens out there, as some people believe. If those Aliens are far more advanced than humans in every way... like thousands or millions of years more advanced in technology and understanding and philosophy and such...

If they believed in their own gods(which i'm sure they would, its in the nature of intelligent, sentient beings, to be curious about where they came from), would some humans still maintain the stance they do now, about believing religion is for unintelligent people?

 

[CptStern]

more so, if we make contact with aliens, the whole foundation of religion goes out the door. So much for being the chosen ones

 

[Raziaar]

more so, if we make contact with aliens, the whole foundation of religion goes out the door. So much for being the chosen ones

Human and alien religion maybe, not religion in general.

just because you don't have all the answers, doesn't mean they aren't there.

 

[CptStern]

Human and alien religion maybe, not religion in general.

sure it would ..most religions presuppose that their faithful are the true chosen people or that humans are the center of the universe ..an alien lifeform would be at odds with this philosophy

 

[Mechagodzilla]

"presuppositions."

Incorrect.

Science does not "assume" there is no god.
That is a fallacy creation scientists invented, AKA a straw man argument.

However, creationists do assume the bible is right.

Check, mate.