Big time lawsuits brewing between Valve and Vivendi

[DiSTuRbEd]

I never said that you enjoy attacking, just that you are misguided in your thoughts on the issues and what they mean. You're looking like a 14 y/o is incidental. :cheers:

Yeah I am looking like 14 years old? Please enlighten me, you can't see me at all.

 

[cadaveca]

time for the thread to close...flaming is a waste of space.

 

[smsKONG]

i also posted taht the info i referenced in the post we are refering to could be found in the "valve speaks" section.
and yes, i do have an nda, although no copy of the game to play. I'm a logistical officer.

by the way, ever wonder why they released things they way they did? so that they could stop crack before release. simple rewrites make your points unviable.

of course you can recompile the code to not use steam. duh. it's just code. but to do so is illegal, and you've admitted your guilt.
personally, i'm done talking to your criminal self.

YOU ARE AN ARSE WHO DOESN'T LISTEN-

I take it this is the quote you speak of-
If I buy the game at a store, do I still sign up for a steam account so that I can play online?

Gabe Newell: Steam is the backend for Half-Life 2. It does a bunch of different things, like acting as the launcher, authentication, Friends, updating, and so on. One thing it does is that it also allows you to purchase things. If you buy Half-Life 2 in a store, it has Steam in it. If you buy Half-Life 2 via Steam, well, then it obviously has Steam in it.

Your "steam account" is basically a method of tracking your digital rights. If you buy Half-Life 2 in a store, it will ask you to create a login id and a password. That way if you go to a friend's house, you can play Half-Life 2 there, even if you don't have your CD/DVD with you. Think of the CD as an alternative to your Internet connection for filling up your local cache.



Where in that statement does it answer my question- it doesn't, my point is that you were saying steam delayed HL2- my point is that you have no proof of this. The above statement doesn't state how HL2 started off - it doesn't say whether it was a stand alone product to start with that was incorporated into steam later, or whether it started life in symbiosis with steam....

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT PIRACY I AM TALKING ABOUT VIVENDI PROVING VALVES GUILT AND PROVING THAT STEAM DELAYED HL2.

I never once said I would or even could crack HL2 (why would I want to when I'm going to buy thru steam you tard), I was trying to get you to understand that the people working on steam NOT the people working on hl2 will have been the ones who converted HL2 to work only thru steam and that they could probably undo it just as easily. YOU HAVE BEEN WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING SO FAR and changed your mind a few times to boot (I remember you posting a few pages back that you would not give valve your money for HL2 but would get halo 2 instead- then said you'd be happy to give valve their 63cents (or similar)....

You are trying to shift the fact that you have been proved wrong

(DX6 indeed- well I should tear up the nda since you can't seem to remember anything useful or do more than link to unrelated information from this site... you are atleast right about one thing -
you're done arguing with me mate, cos I ain't wasting my time on you)

 

[DiSTuRbEd]

So true, sorry I went off topic

 

[shad3r]

Fool's Gold post real?

nah.
why would he post something like that from a different IP than usual?

Vivendi don't want to keep the source code, they just want to analyse it to see how integral Steam is to HL2.

if the design of HL2 relies on features integral to the design of Steam, Vivendi have a case.
but if all the steam calls in HL2 could be replaced with straight C-library file loading calls, then maybe Valve can wiggle out. i would advise them to have a catastrophic hardrive failure on their CVS machines, just for good measure

(if you don't know, CVS keeps a history of all the source code changes over the life of a project)

EDIT: about dx6 - hl2.exe still loads stdshaders_dx6.dll as well (ducks from approaching flames)

 

[cadaveca]

)

EDIT: about dx6 - hl2.exe still loads stdshaders_dx6.dll as well (ducks from approaching flames)

uh...my point exactly. some guy proves my points and claims they are his own.

just for clarification, yes i spent my money for the retail copy of HL2 on my third copy of halo. However, had there been a way for me TO PAY VALVE DIRECTLY, you tard, i would dole out the exact pennies to each employee. but i cannot. not even though buying on steam, as vivendi still gets almost 30%.duh. that was my point.

besdies, to flame someone who was agreeing with you all along, but leading a discussion...like c'mon dude. i said from the beginning that i agreed with you but was playing devil's advocate.
you admited to knowing how to crack steam...only someone who wanted to be able to use that crack in some way would have that info, as it is not readily available.

 

[smsKONG]

Fool's Gold post real?

nah.
why would he post something like that from a different IP than usual?

Vivendi don't want to keep the source code, they just want to analyse it to see how integral Steam is to HL2.

if the design of HL2 relies on features integral to the design of Steam, Vivendi have a case.
but if all the steam calls in HL2 could be replaced with straight C-library file loading calls, then maybe Valve can wiggle out. i would advise them to have a catastrophic hardrive failure on their CVS machines, just for good measure

(if you don't know, CVS keeps a history of all the source code changes over the life of a project)

EDIT: about dx6 - hl2.exe still loads stdshaders_dx6.dll as well (ducks from approaching flames)

Not quite - VU would also have to prove that integrating HL2 into steam actually delayed the game- and if it was a separate team(of say 2 steam guys ) that only worked with the engine and file system- then they have little proof - unless all or some map builders, artists or coders were pulled off the HL2 project or were held up by said incorporation....the important word is PROOF- and it can be hard to come by.

And point taken about the DX6 - then again try running the game on a DX6 card only and see how far you get..

 

[cadaveca]

DX6 is about 10% of the market share..to forgo that would be like forgoing steam.

 

[DrPowers]

They wont ever be able to prove that it was delayed to be released with steam. Unless its written down in a memo somewhere. Unless they pulled everyone off of the game to work on steam (aka the game has STOPED development) they wont be able to prove it. Even if there is only one person working on the game you can say there was only one area that needed to be worked on before the others continued.

Company employee usage is determined by the developer and usually isnt written anywhere in a contract.

 

[DrEvil]

Where did you get that 10% figure from?

 

[cadaveca]

Video Card Driver Name
nv4_disp.dll 525,208 54.89 %
ati2dvag.dll 231,005 24.14 %
NVDD32.DLL 58,789 6.14 %
ialmrnt5.dll 27,075 2.83 %
nv4.dll 14,121 1.48 %
Unspecified 12,647 1.32 %
SiSGRV.dll 10,926 1.14 %
s3gnb.dll 7,923 0.83 %
i81xdnt5.dll 7,215 0.75 %
i81xDD.DLL 5,082 0.53 %
vga.dll 4,334 0.45 %
ati2dvaa.dll 3,864 0.40 %
ati3d2ag.dll 3,083 0.32 %
SiS300iv.dll 2,441 0.26 %
ati3duag.dll 2,213 0.23 %
ati3d1ag.dll 2,204 0.23 %
3dfxvs.dll 2,047 0.21 %
pmxdisp.dll 1,823 0.19 %
dd630_32.dll 1,771 0.19 %
ati2draa.dll 1,716 0.18 %
Other 31,413 3.28 %


from stema site...hardware survey.

 

[shad3r]

there are several parts to Vivendi's case:

that Valve deliberately delayed the games.

that Valve lied to them about Steam and it's potential, and when they started developing it.

if HL2 source code showed it was built around Steam, that means they had Steam well underway when they told Vivendi that they had no serious plans for online distribution. and the core of Steam is file distribution.

 

[smsKONG]

uh...my point exactly. some guy proves my points and claims they are his own.

just for clarification, yes i spent my money for the retail copy of HL2 on my third copy of halo. However, had there been a way for me TO PAY VALVE DIRECTLY, you tard, i would dole out the exact pennies to each employee. but i cannot. not even though buying on steam, as vivendi still gets almost 30%.duh. that was my point.

besdies, to flame someone who was agreeing with you all along, but leading a discussion...like c'mon dude. i said from the beginning that i agreed with you but was playing devil's advocate.
you admited to knowing how to crack steam...only someone who wanted to be able to use that crack in some way would have that info, as it is not readily available.

As far as I know vivendi get nothing from steam sales.
If I'm wrong - I'm wrong (I'd like proof tho -not just your word)

And I never once stated I knew how to crack or had cracked anything - I simply said it could and has been done (I'm only just learning C++ in my free time...)


Oh and here is what you said originally on the subject of giving valve money for HL2-

i took the money last night that i had saved for HL2 and went and bought another copy of Halo. Valve can kiss my ass when it comes to ME buying HL2....doesn't mean my wife or parents can't buy it for me!

U tard

 

[cadaveca]

that would be the closest thing to the truth in this thread so far

Quote:
i took the money last night that i had saved for HL2 and went and bought another copy of Halo. Valve can kiss my ass when it comes to ME buying HL2....doesn't mean my wife or parents can't buy it for me!


right there....you gonna make me search through the last pages..no way.. it's there...lol..i'ma lazy bastard with only enough time to argue.

noone cares what you so in your spare time, really. if ya wanna crack HL2 or whatever..go ahead..it's almost a right. but to advertise here on how to do so is wrong. to use a crack is illegal.
to just have it is not(although this can be argued).

i tried to piss ya off, and lo and behold, i got ya hook line and sinker. i'd call that pwn3d.

 

[DrPowers]

there are several parts to Vivendi's case:

that Valve deliberately delayed the games.

that Valve lied to them about Steam and it's potential, and when they started developing it.

if HL2 source code showed it was built around Steam, that means they had Steam well underway when they told Vivendi that they had no serious plans for online distribution. and the core of Steam is file distribution.

Thats true but as long as there isnt a contract between valve and VU then they cant be sued for its creation... Only for its use to distribute games that VU already bought the rights to. But it seems as if they dont have the rights to HL and thats part of what they are fighting for

 

[DrPowers]

As far as I know vivendi get nothing from steam sales.
If I'm wrong - I'm wrong (I'd like proof tho -not just your word)

And I never once stated I knew how to crack or had cracked anything - I simply said it could and has been done (I'm only just learning C++ in my free time...)


Oh and here is what you said originally on the subject of giving valve money for HL2-



U tard

lol he bought another copy of Halo... an even worse game in terms of sell outs and delays

 

[shad3r]

i think Vivendi want to claim that the renegotiated contract in 2001 was negotiated in bad faith ('cos Valve lied about Steam), and the terms should be changed.

that contract covered current games and several future games 9eg HL2)

 

[DrPowers]

i think Vivendi want to claim that the renegotiated contract in 2001 was negotiated in bad faith ('cos Valve lied about Steam), and the terms should be changed.

that contract covered current games and several future games 9eg HL2)

Well said.. .that pretty much clears it up

 

[smsKONG]

i think Vivendi want to claim that the renegotiated contract in 2001 was negotiated in bad faith ('cos Valve lied about Steam), and the terms should be changed.

that contract covered current games and several future games 9eg HL2)

True but claiming stupidity or lack of foresight in court won't generally get the judge on your side (especially if you are a multi-national corporation...)

Plus they have to prove that steam was originally planned as a way of making money- not easy considering all the other things steam does.

 

[DrPowers]

What I wouldnt do for a copy of their court papers and contracts to hand off to a lawyer friend.... Anyone know a resource that keeps them on file or something?

 

[smsKONG]

Anyway we are arguing over nothing-

Only valve and vivendi know their sides of the story. Meaning all we can really do is wait....and wait.....and hopefully not have to wait too long

 

[shad3r]

Plus they have to prove that steam was originally planned as a way of making money- not easy considering all the other things steam does.

and that takes us back to where we were an hour or so and several pages ago.

i think i'll go to bed now.

 

[cadaveca]

Anyway we are arguing over nothing-

Only valve and vivendi know their sides of the story. Meaning all we can really do is wait....and wait.....and hopefully not have to wait too long

thankyou.

 

[cadaveca]

What I wouldnt do for a copy of their court papers and contracts to hand off to a lawyer friend.... Anyone know a resource that keeps them on file or something?

filed papers for court procedings are a matter of public record. because the disposition was filed so recently, it can probably only be had at the courthouse itself, but in a few weeks, you'll be able to get it online.

 

[cadaveca]

lol he bought another copy of Halo... an even worse game in terms of sell outs and delays

but was it not a good game? i now have a copy for my main machines...and the remaining 2 can't play it anyway.

i got an ati voucher...i'll be playing. should valve end up with 100% from steam, i'll get a copy of that too. but i won't give ANY money to vivendi.

 

[DrPowers]

what about the previous papers.... And I'm really more interested in the contract that they signed. (Not sure if thats public domain or not)

 

[DrPowers]

but was it not a good game? i now have a copy for my main machines...and the remaining 2 can't play it anyway.

i got an ati voucher...i'll be playing. should valve end up with 100% from steam, i'll get a copy of that too. but i won't give ANY money to vivendi.

Its a good game just not a great game. It seems like it tho because console gamers arent used to good FPSs. And when a somewhat mediocre shooter comes around they jump. I rank Halo with Doom3 and I didnt think doom 3 was all that great.

I agree with not giving any money to vivendi tho I never thought publishers deserved anything for the games.

I was really just trying to state that bungie sold out to microsoft (the highest bidder) and then released the game extremely off schedule from its first scheduled date. Nothing different than whats happening now.

 

[oldagerocker]

Don't forget that Steam won't count for all sales, VU have got to distribute it for Xbox too.

 

[cadaveca]

what about the previous papers.... And I'm really more interested in the contract that they signed. (Not sure if thats public domain or not)

contracts, although legal documents, only need to be witness by a person sworn under oath. no disclosure nessecary. however, if there have been other court procedings(which there have) there is a chance there may be what you are looking for

 

[DrPowers]

Don't forget that Steam won't count for all sales, VU have got to distribute it for Xbox too.

If it comes out for XBOX ....which it might not....

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

If you guys can't keep it civil, I'll have to close the thread. I don't want to do that because, on the whole, there's some pretty interesting and intelligent conversation going on.

Cadaveca: in answer to your previous query, there is a current crack to play all Steam games via steam, and one without.

 

[cadaveca]

lol it seems to have calmed down now lol.

current. so 4, like i said, correct?

 

[ImJacksAmygdala]

I know the contracts aren't public record, but are these lawsuits? What kind of information can be learned about product development cycles from these lawsuits?

Hopefully the bigger game news sites report this kind of public record stuff because Valve and VU won't... Some of the complaints filed may also clue us in to some of the contract details....

 

[cadaveca]

it goes like this.
i get paid more than you need to know to analyze documents, such as these court dealings, and come pu with a plan of action in response. I'm the guy in the back room that smooths things over when they go wrong.
what you are asking for is my bread and butter, and there is a reason as to why these documents are not readily public, besides that i wouldn't be eating.

all it boils down to is this.
vivendi has two options. they can fight in court to get money from steam (because it's in the box, so to speak, for HL2), which valve expects them to market(steam) free of charge. vivdendi says no way am i publishing something that will only net you(valve) money, not US(valve and vivendi), and we don't care that it will keep the game from piracy. it's really a small market anyway. in fact, we won't release it at all. yes, the game is gold. in fact, it's great. but steam is no going with the game unless you pay us.

or:

they can remove steam to release the game. uh-oh...how do we test it all again, and reverse engineer it...steam is everywhere! well, get a team of developers from one of the other companies. we own the distribution rights, and if we have to edit content we can. (bang, 35 9800 pro's bought for development team in uk. Why? because the game still has to stay @ 60fps@60hz with vsync, on the 9800 pro. that is part of the whole "source" engine goals.)

so, what does this mean to us gamers? nothing. we gotta wait. thankfully, vivendi decided to get hearings by the 8th of october. judge agrees, as there is still a chance that ati may enter the fray. then we got real issues.
why do we have to wait? because of steam. when valve signed the deal with ati, and got um...20m i think, but something tells me less, they agreed to distribute the game via online, or via hardcopies, but at the users expense for shipping. So, because of this contract...steam pretty much has to stay. vivendi wants nothing to do with it, unless they get a chunk. valve says no way, we have a contract that says you get nothing...publish the game. vivendi say no, if we publish the source for steam, a seperate entity than the HL2 games, you gotta pay us royalties. Valve says no, it's part of multiplayer, as well as the contract with ati, that paid for development. vivendi says bullspit. it was in the works since you conned sierra into letting you have online sales. show us the source code, and we can prove it.

so it's up to the judge. nothing will happen until october 8th. steam will still release the game somehow, because of ati. vivendi will publish the game, because VUG can't give away the biggest selling game of all time.
only question is, will the retail go only to vivendi, and online to valve, and that's it? or will they have to share.vivendi thinks share, as they have to share retail sales anyway. kinda seems fair to me.

 

[poseyjmac]

id like to believe you know what you're talking about cadaveca. but when you spell necessary, 'nessecary', it really detracts from the believability that you are in such a position as you claim.

 

[cadaveca]

id like to believe you know what you're talking about cadaveca. but when you spell necessary, 'nessecary', it really detracts from the believability that you are in such a position as you claim.

lmao. that's too funny.

 

[cadaveca]

just to defend myself...spell checkers are awesome.

 

[Owen]

lmao. that's too funny.

You must have a weird sense of humour...

 

[DiSTuRbEd]

Sorry if I made any rude remarks in here, you guys must know I love you all. I am truely sorry, work makes me insane once in awhile.

 

[Ralfst3r]

I think Valve can get any Publisher they want. Not a problem at all