Big time lawsuits brewing between Valve and Vivendi

[FISKER_Q]

I've never heard anyone take a negative stance against ownership rights.

Imagine I was writing a book of which I hadnt completed and therefore couldnt purchase a copyright etc. If it wasnt for IP someone could steal a draft publish it themselves and make all my money of MY property. How on earth is that fair.

I understad the BSD-Lic and I agree with it and am glad its around. But giving all your code as a public domain is a bad business practice and will never work. Imagine you trying to sell it. There will always be someone who will sell it for less becuase they have nothing invested in it. They just took it from you and your left with nothing.

IPs a bad idea... I think not

And then again you could've written nothing.

I'm not trying to profit from my code. If i were i obviously wouldn't use those licenses.

 

[WiffleLess]

This is not good. I would not be surprised if HL2 sees a serious delay from this.

 

[Element Alpha]

Sometimes I wonder if IP rights are truely required. Let me explain:

-Would you rather have a picasso drawn by the artist himself, or would you rather see a painting made by his family (who own the rights)?

-Would you rather hear James Brown live singing whatever, or would you rather have his music label personnel on the stage trying to humm along?

Get my point? Laws are laws, but talent is talent. You can't buy talent. What is Vivendi going to do with rights to halflife? They can't even make a html page, let alone a sequel to the halflife franchise. Now even if they would sell it to a developper who would make HL3, it wouldn't be the same. And valve would make a game called "This isn't a sequel no sir it's not halflife(tm by the shmucks) no you didn't see that" or another irrelevant title, and people would still buy it, because they'd know it'd be worth it. I'd still buy their games if it was called "pile of excrement taken from the cow's cavities volume 1".

I'm just trying to say sometimes just knowing who made something is more powerfull than whatever copyright law anyone could ever write.

And go Valve go!

 

[Nex321]

Asked gabe, hoping for an answer. But most likely won't get one.

 

[blahblahblah]

And then again you could've written nothing.

I'm not trying to profit from my code. If i were i obviously wouldn't use those licenses.

However, most other people need to earn money to live. IP protects peoples rights to earn money from their ideas without worrying about theft or unfair competition.

Without protection of IP, most people would have no need to create new IP because they would not make a profit from it.

 

[DrPowers]

If I'm being realistic I would say early Oct if the game goes gold this week. I don't understand why they would delay it to Nov and like they said before they want to release the game asap.

Couple reasons... World Wide release, Bagillions of copies sold, closer to Holidays, and now this lawsuit.

World Wide Release, Bagillions sold... Long ass production time (do you have any idea how long it will to take to make millions of copies of the game?)

Closer to holidays... VUG is more interested in making as much money as possible on this game and the closer they release to the holidays the more they will make (as long as it doesnt coincide with Halo2)

Law Suit: VUG is more interested in making as much money as possible on this game and they might wait for the court to rule on the steam law suit. Oct 8 might put a freeze on the distribution of HL2 through steam pending a verdict in march.

 

[SFLUFAN]

Over HL2Fallout, someone spoke to a Gamespot manager who was at a conference over the weekend and spoke personally to a VUG representative.

The VUG rep assured him that HL2 would be available for sale prior to Thanksgiving and that the gist of the lawsuit was that VUG wants Valve to serve out the terms of their original contract and not jump ship prior to then.

 

[Element Alpha]

Without protection of IP, most people would have no need to create new IP because they would not make a profit from it.

Now I'm not saying I'm a communist, or that I disagree with capitalism, but this is clearly a capitalist thought.

Take away money, ownership, property, and all that.
You think people would stop making music, writing stories, and all that?

Go ahead make me laugh.

 

[scaryberry]

As I see it:

VU and Valve enter into a unbalanced, tradition (x % of retail sales) agreement.

HL / CS become an unforseen hit. HL2, included in the original agreement (probably under "all sequels and offshoots") skyrockets in value.

Valve figures that to make a real profit, they need to get out from under the current contract. They stall and pressure VU until a second contract is made, specifically stating online sales go to Valve. VU considers this a throwaway; Valve is banking on it.

Valve, having gotten the alternate distribution method, goes gangbusters on Steam.

Bottom line: business is war. Credit valve for figuring out how to manipulate VU into a favorable contract. VU should have covered their bases. Neither side is "at fault", VU isnt doing anything out of the ordinary by trying to maximize start-up funding returns.

One sentence that bothered me: Valve stalling on HL2 development in order to get VU to buckle. One of the reasons it's taken 5 years to develop? Is 3D doing the same thing with Take 2?

Scary

 

[DrPowers]

Sometimes I wonder if IP rights are truely required. Let me explain:

-Would you rather have a picasso drawn by the artist himself, or would you rather see a painting made by his family (who own the rights)?

-Would you rather hear James Brown live singing whatever, or would you rather have his music label personnel on the stage trying to humm along?

Get my point? Laws are laws, but talent is talent. You can't buy talent. What is Vivendi going to do with rights to halflife? They can't even make a html page, let alone a sequel to the halflife franchise. Now even if they would sell it to a developper who would make HL3, it wouldn't be the same. And valve would make a game called "This isn't a sequel no sir it's not halflife(tm by the shmucks) no you didn't see that" or another irrelevant title, and people would still buy it, because they'd know it'd be worth it. I'd still buy their games if it was called "pile of excrement taken from the cow's cavities volume 1".

I'm just trying to say sometimes just knowing who made something is more powerfull than whatever copyright law anyone could ever write.

And go Valve go!

You make some points but I'd like to comment that IP simply means that whoever came up with property can decide what to do with it. In this case valve decided to publish it and Sierra agreed to help cover publisher's costs for a piece of the product. Unless valve signed over the property (i.e. selling the property) they still own the property and can do whatever they want with it.

If you apply this to singers their tracks are owned by the artists unless the rights to the song are signed over which happens more often than in software. Someone can still perform a cover of the song later down the line but royalties must be payed to the owner if they wish.

 

[dream431ca]

if everyone is so concerned..why not e-mail someone from valve and ask if the game will come out regardless of the dispute??

 

[Wildhound]

I guess we now know what's been going on with HL2 for the last year. They weren't lying when they said the hack had nothing to do with it.

 

[DrPowers]

Now I'm not saying I'm a communist, or that I disagree with capitalism, but this is clearly a capitalist thought.

Take away money, ownership, property, and all that.
You think people would stop making music, writing stories, and all that?

Go ahead make me laugh.

Certainly not but all those things as a business would collapse and that is one reason why communism doesnt work, Commie.


LOL

 

[SFLUFAN]

"Now I'm not saying I'm a communist, or that I disagree with capitalism, but this is clearly a capitalist thought.

Take away money, ownership, property, and all that.
You think people would stop making music, writing stories, and all that?

Go ahead make me laugh."

In a word, yes they would - what on earth would people who do this for their living do? They'd find something else to do with their lives.

 

[Asuka]

I guess we now know what's been going on with HL2 for the last year. They weren't lying when they said the hack had nothing to do with it.

I dont think this has or will delay Hl2. Its a side thing you know.

 

[Locust]

we are part socialist as well. We're capital socialists.

 

[FISKER_Q]

Over HL2Fallout, someone spoke to a Gamespot manager who was at a conference over the weekend and spoke personally to a VUG representative.

The VUG rep assured him that HL2 would be available for sale prior to Thanksgiving and that the gist of the lawsuit was that VUG wants Valve to serve out the terms of their original contract and not jump ship prior to then.

Yeah somewhere around the start of november.

 

[DrPowers]

I guess we now know what's been going on with HL2 for the last year. They weren't lying when they said the hack had nothing to do with it.

Only gabe knows. But, it did give them more time to develope. Which is nothing but a benefit to us!

 

[Nex321]

I still think of early Oct release, I don't think that the court will treat hl2 release

 

[DiSTuRbEd]

VUG needs money, they will be release hl2 whenever it gets all the production for cds,manuals,boxes,etc done.

 

[kaellinn18]

VUG needs money, they will be release hl2 whenever it gets all the production for cds,manuals,boxes,etc done.

No f*cking joke either. Especially if they want to pay all of their enormous legal fees. They've been in litigation for years? No wonder they have no money.

 

[DrPowers]

"Now I'm not saying I'm a communist, or that I disagree with capitalism, but this is clearly a capitalist thought.

Take away money, ownership, property, and all that.
You think people would stop making music, writing stories, and all that?

Go ahead make me laugh."

In a word, yes they would - what on earth would people who do this for their living do? They'd find something else to do with their lives.

What about the artists that sing because they love singing. What about mod makers that make mods because they love doing it. HL was originally a mod for Quake 2 and they didnt expect to make millions off of it when they started it. Lots of people do things because they love doing it and not because they get money for it.

 

[DrPowers]

No f*cking joke either. Especially if they want to pay all of their enormous legal fees. They've been in litigation for years? No wonder they have no money.

"We dont take one cent unless YOU win!" lol

 

[Asuka]

Only gabe knows. But, it did give them more time to develope. Which is nothing but a benefit to us!

Ya i agree i think the delay is in our favor. Im expecting a early to mid oct. release.

 

[blahblahblah]

Get my point? Laws are laws, but talent is talent. You can't buy talent. What is Vivendi going to do with rights to halflife? They can't even make a html page, let alone a sequel to the halflife franchise. Now even if they would sell it to a developper who would make HL3, it wouldn't be the same. And valve would make a game called "This isn't a sequel no sir it's not halflife(tm by the shmucks) no you didn't see that" or another irrelevant title, and people would still buy it, because they'd know it'd be worth it. I'd still buy their games if it was called "pile of excrement taken from the cow's cavities volume 1".

I'm just trying to say sometimes just knowing who made something is more powerfull than whatever copyright law anyone could ever write.

And go Valve go!

This is where intangible property gets tricky. There are multiple forums of intangible property like copyrights, patents, and goodwill.

If the rights for HL went to Vivendi and Valve left for Activision, there would be a required write-down of IP value. The company who created HL (Valve) would no longer be attributed to HL, because Valve was a key factor in the success of HL. That would require a write-down in value. However, the name HL still has brand loyalty and name reconigition which is yet another form of intangible value. So HL still has value to it, that was created over time.

Intangible property gets awfully messy and complicated if you don't watch out for it.

Now I'm not saying I'm a communist, or that I disagree with capitalism, but this is clearly a capitalist thought.

Take away money, ownership, property, and all that.
You think people would stop making music, writing stories, and all that?

Go ahead make me laugh..

Artists and writers are in it for the money. Without the money, you wouldn't be reading Stephen King novels or listen to music by Elton John. Why should I pay them a premium for their works if I can take a copy of Stephen King's novel without paying him a premium. Or buy Elton John's CD if I can download it on-line? Or even watch Elton John in concert (and spend $200 a ticket) if I can watch a Elton John knock-off do the same for $10?

Sure writing and making music is a hobby, but a hobby isn't serious enough to become famous. Famous people only become famous after pouring out gallons of blood, sweat, and tears. While I personally think they make too much money, they are earning the money that people are willing to pay for it.

 

[Element Alpha]

Haha ha ha ha

Here, I just wrote a song for free, just to prove you wrong (because I don't have anything better to do)

I love the way
My feet smell today
You didn't notice the stench
And it makes me wonder

Ooh yeah
Ooh yeah

My feet smell like roses
except they don't
I think I'll need a couple of hoses
or we'll all cut off our noses

Ooh yeah
Ooh yeah

Now baby don't go cryin'
Those roses they are dyin'
I'll never get to catch you
'cus my feet are sticky like the glue
That ties my heart to you

My feet smell like roses
except they don't
I'll need a couple of hoses
or we'll all cut of our noses

Ooh yeah
Ooh yeah

-the end-

Thank you, thank you very much.

Disclaimer: You can do whatever the hell you feel like with these lyrics. They were invented by me (in your face, competition) and as such, they can be used by anybody for whatever reason you could imagine. Restricting the use of these lyrics is against this disclaimer wich you chose to accept by reading it. Yes, it's too late now. Hahaha.

 

[blahblahblah]

Disclaimer: You can do whatever the hell you feel like with these lyrics. They were invented by me (in your face, competition) and as such, they can be used by anybody for whatever reason you could imagine. Restricting the use of these lyrics is against this disclaimer wich you chose to accept by reading it. Yes, it's to late now. Hahaha.

That is perfectly in your right to do so. However, certain people want to make a career out of song writing. They can't make those songs for free because then they would never eat, or be able to take care of their families. That is why IP is so important.

I can see that people are not seeing (or even understanding) the importance of IP, I'm out of this thread.

 

[Asuka]

That is perfectly in your right to do so. However, certain people want to make a career out of song writing. They can't make those songs for free because then they would never eat, or be able to take care of their families. That is why IP is so important.

I can see that people are not seeing (or even understanding) the importance of IP, I'm out of this thread.

I agree.

 

[DrPowers]

Haha ha ha ha

Here, I just wrote a song for free, just to prove you wrong (because I don't have anything better to do)

I love the way
My feet smell today
You didn't notice the stench
And it makes me wonder

Ooh yeah
Ooh yeah

My feet smell like roses
except they don't
I think I'll need a couple of hoses
or we'll all cut off our noses

Ooh yeah
Ooh yeah

Now baby don't go cryin'
Those roses they are dyin'
I'll never get to catch you
'cus my feet are sticky like the glue
That ties my heart to you

My feet smell like roses
except they don't
I'll need a couple of hoses
or we'll all cut of our noses

Ooh yeah
Ooh yeah

-the end-

Thank you, thank you very much.

Disclaimer: You can do whatever the hell you feel like with these lyrics. They were invented by me (in your face, competition) and as such, they can be used by anybody for whatever reason you could imagine. Restricting the use of these lyrics is against this disclaimer wich you chose to accept by reading it. Yes, it's too late now. Hahaha.

Ingenious..... just put it to a britney spears instrumental and I've got a winner. I'll make millions, MILLIONS and since this universe doesnt have a IP clause you wont get any of it... even tho its yours. AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH

 

[DrPowers]

Or even watch Elton John in concert (and spend $200 a ticket)

Elton John tickets sell for $200?????

What has the world come to??

 

[smsKONG]

Am I the only one who thinks this world sucks, that the human race is a parasitic scum that can only take take take.

I'm sure VU can back up some of its claims, but at the end of the day,if they have already signed over IP rights back to valve with a view to valve distributing online, then there is little they can do to stop valve from selling thru steam- they would need a court injunction specifically telling valve they cannot sell any game under license by VU. And since valve has only to let VU have 2 games(inferred,so not sure on exact figure), they would have to be careful, because they no longer hold IP over half life, meaning valve could give them CS:S and HL:S and keep the juicy stuff for themselves.

It sickens me how publishers make so much money off others backs.
If the situation above is only wishful thinking, and the legal favour swings towards VU. All I can say is, I will lose ALL faith in human integrity.
Personally if I was a publisher, I wouldn't have the bare faced cheek to stand up in court (or anywhere else for that matter ) and say that I owned someonelses idea or hard work. And it just shows what a corrupt and evil world we live in where things like this can even possibly be challenged (where there is NO doubt as to who is the rightful or original creator).

Did VU go to valve and say- we've got an idea for a game, we call it half-life and want you to develop it.......NO. Did VU help out with said development- help with concept artwork, level design or scripting......NO.
VU have no right to hold valve over a barrel, if they wanted to, then they should never have passed the IP rights back to valve (they should have taken valve to court over threatening to delay if they feel justified in doing this now).
What they are doing now seems like sour grapes over their own lack of foresight by thinking valve seling online would never affect them.

VU can take a running jump off a high cliff for all I care about them. The money grabbing b'stards can go go shaft themselves-

I'm off to cancel my pre-ordered copy (even tho it was cheaper than steam will be). I didn't want to buy thru steam, but VU just made up my mind for me. I have principles and refuse to ever give that company any money. (Guess that also means I won't be buying WH40K DOW......I've never downloaded warez copies before but.....)

 

[karbon86]

why doesn't valve make a quick really crappy game and call it hl 1-1/2 and that way they can let VUG fullfil their contract of 1 more title and then release hl2 on steam until they can get activision to produce for people who can't buy on steam?

 

[Element Alpha]

That is perfectly in your right to do so. However, certain people want to make a career out of song writing. They can't make those songs for free because then they would never eat, or be able to take care of their families.

This is the last reply I'll make in this thread. If you want to take it any further, go to o/t and have a blast.

But the fact is that there are plenty of musicians who make a decent living without ever having sold 1 cd trough a store. You know how? Gigs! Gigs! and more gigs! A concert here, a live performance there. And the only cd's they sell are the ones you can buy near the stage.

And don't tell me if you could choose between a performance by the artist or an imitator, you'd expect the imitator to have a bigger audience(or more money) because his gigs are cheaper.
The only reason that'd happen is if he were a better singer. And what's wrong with that?

Don't pm me and don't stray to far away from the topic okay?

I'm just saying all this, because look what happens with all those contracts and complicated laws. A developper isn't a lawyer after all. He's here to create, not to argue about ownership and whatnot. If he makes good games, people will buy it. I understand you're not allowed to copy a game and release it as your own, but that doesn't mean it has to be all that big of an issue when it comes down to it.

How it should be: The game is from valve, if you want to distribute/publish, good, do it; and if you don't, too bad, someone else will.

How it is: yaddayadda blah blah lawsuit lawsuit blah blah and the game gets lost from sight

 

[DrPowers]

why doesn't valve make a quick really crappy game and call it hl 1-1/2 and that way they can let VUG fullfil their contract of 1 more title and then release hl2 on steam until they can get activision to produce for people who can't buy on steam?

because they have pride damnit. Plus it seems as if they already contract bound to produce HL2 with vivendi. I also think its funny that vu is going to request the court to force HL2 to keep developing with them. My guess is that there isnt a chance in hell thats going to happen. Specially since they have steam now.

 

[blahblahblah]

*snip*

Fine.

 

[DrPowers]

This is the last reply I'll make in this thread. If you want to take it any further, go to o/t and have a blast.

But the fact is that there are plenty of musicians who make a decent living without ever having sold 1 cd trough a store. You know how? Gigs! Gigs! and more gigs! A concert here, a live performance there. And the only cd's they sell are the ones you can buy near the stage.

And don't tell me if you could choose between a performance by the artist or an imitator, you'd expect the imitator to have a bigger audience(or more money) because his gigs are cheaper.
The only reason that'd happen is if he were a better singer. And what's wrong with that?

Don't pm me and don't stray to far away from the topic okay?

I'm just saying all this, because look what happens with all those contracts and complicated laws. A developper isn't a lawyer after all. He's here to create, not to argue about ownership and whatnot. If he makes good games, people will buy it. I understand you're not allowed to copy a game and release it as your own, but that doesn't mean it has to be all that big of an issue when it comes down to it.

How it should be: The game is from valve, if you want to distribute/publish, good, do it; and if you don't, too bad, someone else will.

How it is: yaddayadda blah blah lawsuit lawsuit blah blah and the game gets lost from sight

Rose colored glasses my friend, rose colored glasses

 

[ferd]

If this has been going ons for 3 years know...then why are we all off the sudden getting worried about it?

 

[DrPowers]

If this has been going ons for 3 years know...then why are we all off the sudden getting worried about it?

cause its better than no news.. Plus I'm at work and I'm bored

 

[Xcellere]

Am I the only one who thinks this world sucks, that the human race is a parasitic scum that can only take take take.

I highly agree. I think we're scum, and shit like this makes me sick to my stomach.

 

[Mountain Man]

why doesn't valve make a quick really crappy game and call it hl 1-1/2 and that way they can let VUG fullfil their contract of 1 more title and then release hl2 on steam until they can get activision to produce for people who can't buy on steam?

A contract must be fulfilled in good faith. Thus, Valve could not just throw together some P.O.S. game and hope that Vivendi will be fooled into thinking the contract has been fulfilled. Valve must make a good faith effort to meet the specified terms or they could be held liable for breech of contract.