Blizzard’s Reaction to Gay Guilds an “Unfortunate Mistake”

[kirovman]

Noone's forcing you to think of gay sex when the word gay is mentioned.

That's your own issue.

When someone mentions gay, I immediately think of a same sex couple in a relationship; I don't visualise the acts that they get up to in their bedroom, like some homophobes out there seem to insist on doing.

As I say, that's their own issue. If it persists in jumping into their thoughts and disturbing them so much, maybe they should see a psychologist? They might be able to dig out their childhood repressed memories or something.


The point of this guild is to play WoW in an environment free of immature/biggoted slurs.

In America, Black people used to be (and arguably still are) offensive to a large majority of people, up until the civil rights movement.
It seems as though today, gays are still treated as second class citizens, so where are their civil rights?

I am assuming that the right to not be constantly bullied and insulted is a basic civil right.

 

[Yuri]

There is a point though.
The gay-friendly guild was made specifically to exclude the kids constantly going "u re homogays lollol"

If WoW were plagued with kids spouting racial slurs, there would be multicultural guilds forming as well.
Hopefully, things aren't that bad in the game.

But if they were, would the guilds promoting tolerance towards other races be in the wrong?

Sometimes you need to pull out the national guard to help the kids pass through the mob and get to their classroom.

You really think that a "gay-friendly guild" is going to keep those people out? I would think it would have the opposite effect.

And WoW is plagued with racial slurs... just like every other game. I run into racial slurs as much as I run into gay-related ones.

I just think that making "Gay-friendly!" groups of gamers in a sea of homophobic 12 year olds isn't going to help you do jack shit, other than stir up a bunch of attention (which they seem to have definately done.) Funny, too, because now that they have so much attention, I'm sure that all the ridiculous homophobes will be on a watch out for these people so they can ridicule them further.

Honestly, it sucks to be gay in the current world because of the ignorance of the general public. People use "gay" as an insult, which is pretty dumb and sick, and definately offensive. But I just don't think forming a gay-friendly group in a gay-unfriendly place is going to do jack-shit besides give you a reason to complain to Blizzard when you're offended by the predictable onslaught of dumb kids.

I feel most for Blizzard, who I am sure have to deal with complaints about homophobia and racism all the time. Its not Blizzard's fault that most people who play their games are morons, and they shouldn't be punished for being pre-emptive against something like this.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

As I pointed out in my last big post, Blizzard's prior goal of "pre-empting negativity" only antagonized those they are trying to protect.

Note the national guard analogy.
When the vast majority of people are in the wrong, you stand up against them anyways.
The everyone-inclusive guild (because that's what it is) was and is doing absolutely no harm.

Surely the people creating it and joining it are aware of the fact that stupid people may bother them.
That is their responsibility to cope with.
The point of their organization, however, is not ending homophobic comments, but rather excluding them as much as a player without GM privileges can.

It doesn't matter if the everyone-inclusive guild are successful or not, or if they have no overall effect.
Even if it a thousand homophobes show their true colours and rally against the evil that is somone identifying themselves with an "L" in an acronym, the friendly guild is still in the right.
The homophobes are in the wrong, and it is they who deserve to be antagonized.

Blizzard have made the first step in fixing their faulty rule. The next step is to punish homophobes and racists.
That action would remove the actual problem and have the bonus of not forcing the minorities to hide themselves.

Its not Blizzard's fault that most people who play their games are morons, and they shouldn't be punished for being pre-emptive against something like this.

It may not be Blizzard's fault that morons are still somehow capable of buyng their game, but it sure as hell is their fault the the morons are able to continue acting stupid within it with impunity.
If you own a restaurant, you tell the rich man yelling at the "negroe" waiters to leave, and escort him from the building - with police help if necessary.
It might be messy but, then again, what cancer treatment isn't?

It is their fault that homophobia and racism are everywhere in the game, as they have any number of solutions at their disposal.

Just ban the mother****ers already.

 

[Glirk Dient]

They can't ban those players unless they break the rules. Flaming excessively can warrant a warning but not much beyond that unless it gets serious. The matter of fact is 10% > the size of the GLBT guild on the server. So in essence they would be protecting the majority there.

There is simply no need to have a GLBT guild. As you said before 10% of the server which are homophobes don't agree as it is a controversial topic and can offend some people.

The same rules would apply for guilds such as politically charged guilds, greenpeace guilds, conspiracy theorist only guild, and heck any other topic that will offend enough players to petition. Heck you can't even say Hell in the guild name...if someone petitions you gotta change it.

So as I see it, there is no need to bring up such subjects into the game. They did, players got angry so Blizzard did something to fix the problem and was forced to retract their statement because GLBT guilds aren't subject to the same rules everyone else is apparently.

 

[sHaDdoW]

They can't ban those players unless they break the rules. Flaming excessively can warrant a warning but not much beyond that unless it gets serious. The matter of fact is 10% > the size of the GLBT guild on the server. So in essence they would be protecting the majority there.

There is simply no need to have a GLBT guild. As you said before 10% of the server which are homophobes don't agree as it is a controversial topic and can offend some people.

The same rules would apply for guilds such as politically charged guilds, greenpeace guilds, conspiracy theorist only guild, and heck any other topic that will offend enough players to petition. Heck you can't even say Hell in the guild name...if someone petitions you gotta change it.

So as I see it, there is no need to bring up such subjects into the game. They did, players got angry so Blizzard did something to fix the problem and was forced to retract their statement because GLBT guilds aren't subject to the same rules everyone else is apparently.

People need special rules, because they have special problems to deal with.

People who speak and fight out agaist gays, need a good slappin, because its forces people to isolate themselves from the group. So they have to create guilds like this one.

 

[Sulkdodds]

The same rules would apply for guilds such as politically charged guilds, greenpeace guilds, conspiracy theorist only guild

No they wouldn't and if they would they shouldn't.

I would also note that I have never encountered a ratial slur, except on Earthen Ring, where I was called a 'long-eared freak' and a 'purple bastard' and others were labelled gritsuckers, lawn ornaments, shortarses, greenskins, yonks, cows, cattle, zombies, abominations, affronts to the Light and so on an so forth.

 

[Glirk Dient]

No they wouldn't and if they would they shouldn't.

I would also note that I have never encountered a ratial slur, except on Earthen Ring, where I was called a 'long-eared freak' and a 'purple bastard' and others were labelled gritsuckers, lawn ornaments, shortarses, greenskins, yonks, cows, cattle, zombies, abominations, affronts to the Light and so on an so forth.

Have you played WoW even?

And I have had guild names changed for less than what I had listed.

Here is a typical encounter trying to sell something in WoW

/me: Selling krol blade cheap!
/n00b: How much?
/me: Uhh 200 gold?
/n00b: dude...thats not even worth 10 gold! just give it to me for free
/me: **** no...
/n00b: Quit bein a ******, just hand it over!
/me wtf you talkin about? Screw this ill just throw it up on the ah, buy it there if you want.

It only gets worse from there.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

They can't ban those players unless they break the rules. Flaming excessively can warrant a warning but not much beyond that unless it gets serious.

That is why there is a need for a new rule.

The matter of fact is 10% > the size of the GLBT guild on the server. So in essence they would be protecting the majority there.

My 10% figure was the number of people who are gay, assuming that national averages carry over to the game world. Of course, many, many more people aren't gay, and still loathe the homophobic element.

However, I have repeatedly pointed out that supporting an incorrect majority isn't smart. That's an appeal to authority, and ignores the fact that their position is without any merit.

There is simply no need to have a GLBT guild. As you said before 10% of the server which are homophobes don't agree as it is a controversial topic and can offend some people.

I have already said, there is no wisdom in disgust and no matter the size of the majority (if one exists), they are quantifiably wrong here.

You are not presenting a valid argument.

The same rules would apply for guilds such as politically charged guilds, greenpeace guilds, conspiracy theorist only guild, and heck any other topic that will offend enough players to petition. Heck you can't even say Hell in the guild name...if someone petitions you gotta change it.

This is another appeal to authority, and not on the topic at hand. We are not talking about conspiracy guilds or saying hell in names.
A blanket rule that groups such elements isn't correct because they are dissimilar.

So as I see it, there is no need to bring up such subjects into the game. They did, players got angry so Blizzard did something to fix the problem and was forced to retract their statement because GLBT guilds aren't subject to the same rules everyone else is apparently.

You have already stated this argument, and I have already shown this argument to be deeply flawed.

-Rules should be changed if they are quantifiably wrong. These rules are wrong.
-Your majority is not correct here, regardless of how angry and vocal they are.
-There is a need for this guild because Blizzard's anti-flaming rules are not effective.
-Stricter Anti-flaming rules need to be added.

/me wtf you talkin about? Screw this ill just throw it up on the ah, buy it there if you want.

It only gets worse from there.

So the moral you glean from the story is to ban smart people who don't act like that?

 

[Glirk Dient]

That is why there is a need for a new rule.

You can't ban people just for talking crap to others...thats ridiculous.

My 10% figure was the number of people who are gay, assuming that national averages carry over to the game world. Of course, many, many more people aren't gay, and still loathe the homophobic element.

Oh...I mistook that figure to be the amount of homophobes you perceived to be in WoW so I went with that even though it seemed suprisingly low.

However, I have repeatedly pointed out that supporting an incorrect majority isn't smart. That's an appeal to authority, and ignores the fact that their position is without any merit.
I have already said, there is no wisdom in disgust and no matter the size of the majority (if one exists), they are quantifiably wrong here.

You are not presenting a valid argument.

Umm, so now you telling people that their opinions are wrong because what you believe is right. Their opinions aren't wrong, you perceive them to be wrong. There is a difference. Lets see, a guild is created thats based on a very touchy subject and many find it to be morally offensive. They aren't banning the subject because a lot of people find it wrong. They are doing away with it because players are offended and they are stopping lots of flaming. It is pretty easy...in a game that subject is innapropriate to make a guild from as it breaks the rules. However, they apparently were allowed special treatment.

This is another appeal to authority, and not on the topic at hand. We are not talking about conspiracy guilds or saying hell in names.
A blanket rule that groups such elements isn't correct because they are dissimilar.

They are similar in that they could offend people and be a cause for harassment. Which breaks the same rule.

I must be missing something. One of the largest debated topics in the country is brought into a video game where there are many homophobes and other idiots. This clearly breaks the anti-harassment rule because people could find such material offensive and not to mention the giant community wide flame wars that follow such mentions even in barrens chat. So...why were they allowed to break the rules and it isn't special treatment?

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Their opinions aren't wrong, you perceive them to be wrong.

That's a straw man argument.
You have skipped over my post where I oulined the exact logical basis behind my conclusion.

Argue the logic behind my conclusion.
Do not argue on some tangent that pretends that I'm not using logic.
I don't want to waste people's time by having to repeat myself more than I already have.

Despite the fact that you had already read my post (although obviously not carefully, since you got the unambiguous 10% figure wrong) you have failed to address any of the conclusive points made within it.

Here they are again, in a quick summary:

Blizzard's rule change in based in the following logic:

1:
-If something is offensive for no logical reason, it should be removed.
-Homophobes are offensive for no logical reason. (See the "No wisdom in disgust" fallacy.)
Therefore:
-Homophobes should be removed.

2:
-If something is offensive for a good logical reason, it has done no wrong. (When it is causing no material harm, as literally anything can be deemed offensive.)
-The non-discriminatory guild exists for a logical reason (removing homophobes), and is only offensive to homophobes (who should be removed anyways).
Therefore:
-The guild has done no wrong.

3:
-Illogical arguments are not valid, and do not deserve support.
-The majority are not using logical arguments (Wisdom in disgust fallacy).
Therfore:
-The majority does not deserve support.

4:
-Rules based in illogical ideas are not valid and should be repaired.
-The original Blizzard rule that you support was not logically valid (see #2).
Therefore:
-The original Blizzard rule was not valid and needed to be repaired.

If you can find a flaw in any of those arguments, feel free to point it out.
However, please refrain from repeating the same fallacies you already have when you do so.

So far, these have been one straw man, two types of appeal to authority and a wisdom in revulsion.
Bringing in the off-topic discussion of conspiracy guilds isn't cool either.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Quite. Now here's something I find interesting:

One of the largest debated topics in the country is brought into a video game where there are many homophobes and other idiots. This clearly breaks the anti-harassment rule...

Ah, I see. It is the fault of gays for provoking harassment...therefore they are breaking harassment rules? Wrong.

The rules state against harassing anybody. Setting up such a guild is not harassing anybody. You're blaming the victim for inciting what's inflicted on? Oh wait, aren't you the one who's always arguing against assertions that 9-11 was America's fault because they 'provoked' the terrorists? So who's using double standards now? In one instance the victim bears no responsibility despite having willfully made choices that could be seen to attract bad things, and in another the victim bears responsibility for something that they did not choose and cannot change?

It is the homophobes' fault for being c*nts, frankly. To say otherwise is more than a little similar to defending a rapist because 'the victim asked for it'. Or, more aptly, Mecha's example about black people in racist all-white schools.

Have you played WoW even?

Yes. Lots. On PvP servers no less.

Only in America, eh?

 

[Glirk Dient]

You both are assuming that homosexually should be accepted as a common lifestlye and no one should object. That is wrong, that is why it is among the most heated issues. So to bring that into a game and expect people to not flame eachother where it often will happen for no logical reason is just ridiculous. What if someone made a "Lets all murder babies" guild. Do you think that would fare well? It is also a very heated issue and you could verywell call one side a bunch of ilogical idiots that are just flaming but really it is a heated issue and there are good points to both sides.

You can't deny that homosexuality is a very heated issue. That is why it has no place in WoW. It will cause too much of an upstir and is not a needed part of gameplay so it will only detract from people gameplay.

 

[Sulkdodds]

There you go comparing homosexuality to murdering babies.

You are assuming that there is any reason to object to homosexuality.
Here's a good analogy: it's like a rapist telling the court 'well, she was attractive. And she was wearing a short skirt. Come on.'
The former is something she couldn't help and the latter is something she had a choice in being overt about. See?
You are telling me that in order to stop abuse, you should stop the victims of said abuse from...from what exactly?
You're telling me that in city where there is racism, a black person is in the wrong for setting up some sort of support group.
What you're telling me is something I find quite ridiculous when the whole point of the thing was to shelter people from abuse. I don't see how that detracts from anyone's gameplay, to be frank. Apart from the god-hates-fag brigade, who might consider hurling insults to be part of the 'gameplay'.

EDIT: Plus, if it's as heated an issue as you think, and if WoW homophobia is as endemic as you think, surely it is necessary to create such a guild?

I'd also like to say I think its creation was stupid and pointless. I am simply defending its right to exist.

 

[Glirk Dient]

There you go comparing homosexuality to murdering babies.

You are assuming that there is any reason to object to homosexuality.
Here's a good analogy: it's like a rapist telling the court 'well, she was attractive. And she was wearing a short skirt. Come on.'
The former is something she couldn't help and the latter is something she had a choice in being overt about. See?
You are telling me that in order to stop abuse, you should stop the victims of said abuse from...from what exactly?
You're telling me that in city where there is racism, a black person is in the wrong for setting up some sort of support group.
What you're telling me is something I find quite ridiculous when the whole point of the thing was to shelter people from abuse. I don't see how that detracts from anyone's gameplay, to be frank. Apart from the god-hates-fag brigade, who might consider hurling insults to be part of the 'gameplay'.

There is no need to compare abortion and homosexuality in that way. The only way I was comparing them is that they are both very heated moral issues. Nothing more.

Granted most people who dissaprove of it should be tolerant. However that is not the case, you can't run around yelling curse words and racial slurs and say if people don't like it they shouldn't listen/read it in game. It doesn't work like that. The GMs will say there is no need for those curse words and it detracts from other peoples experience so therefor it isn't allowed. Same thing with anything else controversial or politically charged. Homsexuality fitting both of those.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

You both are assuming that homosexually should be accepted as a common lifestlye and no one should object. That is wrong, that is why it is among the most heated issues. So to bring that into a game and expect people to not flame eachother where it often will happen for no logical reason is just ridiculous. What if someone made a "Lets all murder babies" guild.

Hooray for more fallacies.
Along with what Sulk pointed out, that's a straw man argument and a false analogy.

In "murdering babies" actual harm is done, to a baby.
When gay people exist they do not do harm to anything. (For the millionth time, being causing kids to giggle about cooties is not harmful.)

By ignoring you and your pals's wisdom in disgust fallacy, and repeatedly stating it, you have invalidated your argument several times over.
Also, the no wisdom in disgust fallacy has shown that there is nothing wrong with gay people, and they should not be objected to.
By pretending I didn't already prove that, you are making a straw man argument, which is not valid.


No-one has ever, ever, ever, provided a logical explanation for why gays shouldn't be accepted by and included in society.
I have actually put up a 500$ cash reward for anyone who can prove gays should be excluded from society, using secular logic.

Your excuses for ostracising gays:
"They're offensive."
and
"the majority doesn't like them."
are not valid.

Try again if you wish, but please try an argument that isn't deeply flawed.

 

[Sulkdodds]

You didn't mention abortion. You said 'let's all murder babies guild'.

you can't run around yelling curse words and racial slurs and say if people don't like it they shouldn't listen/read it in game. It doesn't work like that.

So now you are comparing homosexuality to racial slurs? ?!?!?!?
(You can turn a swear filter on, lawl).

 

[Glirk Dient]

You didn't mention abortion. You said 'let's all murder babies guild'.So now you are comparing homosexuality to racial slurs? ?!?!?!?
(You can turn a swear filter on, lawl).

That is what the guilds name would have been...just to make it clear.

I wasn't comparing homosexuality to racial slurs. I was providing an example where your "If you don't like it, just ignore it" philosophy wouldn't fly. Besides those swear filters are crap and you can easily get around them.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

There is no need to compare abortion and homosexuality in that way. The only way I was comparing them is that they are both very heated moral issues. Nothing more.

More straw man and more false analogy.

Swearwords exist for no logical reason and are considered offensive by many.
Gay people exist for a logical reason and are considered offensive by few.

There is a fundamental difference there!

Murdering babies is offensive because it is quantifiably harmful.
Gay people are not quantifiably harmful.

There is a fundamental difference there!

Also, you didn't mention anything about abortion.

Granted most people who dissaprove of it should be tolerant.

Bingo!

Now just remove all the nonsense that surrounds this point.

In most political situations, the logically correct side might be ambiguous or may not even exist.
However, in the case of gays existing, one side is so absolutely wrong that it hurts my brain just thinking about it.

Using your logic, and this is a proper analogy, a guild that is anti-racism should not be allowed to exist because some people hate other races and consider them politically charged. So the players should be forced to disguise their race at all times.

 

[Glirk Dient]

You are also guilty of a straw man falicy. It does not matter which is logical or not. Both are offensive to people and you are speculating at how many offend each so that wont work.

In most political situations, the logically correct side might be ambiguous or may not even exist.
However, in the case of gays existing, one side is so absolutely wrong that it hurts my brain just thinking about it.

It is wrong to find homosexuality disgusting? Sorry you are completely wrong if you think so. A person should be tolerant towards people choices but to say it is wrong to not approve of it or to not think it is wrong is just wrong. People are entitles to their opinions of what they find disgusting.

Using your logic, and this is a proper analogy, a guild that is anti-racism should not be allowed to exist because some people hate other races and consider them politically charged. So the players should be forced to disguise their race at all times.

Somewhat correct. A guild like that would encite players to yell racial slurs at them. Also such subjects can only degrade from players experiences so that guild wouldn't last long.

It is pretty simple. A guild based on something that will only detract from peoples experiences in game has no place to be there.

Lets see...

Cool, this game has a guild with gay people! Man this game rocks!

Or

/barrenschat: ZOMG TEH BUTTSECKS!!
/barrenschat: I had gay sex with chuck norris LAWL!!!
/barrenschat: ZOMG GAYS ARE TEH RAIDING!

And that would go on for a few hours at least. The second example is what would really happen and does happen. THe first would be very rare for anyone to want to play a game for the sole reasont heres a gay guild. Usually people play a game if its good. So a guild that supports/is homosexual will only detract from all the homophobes and flaming.

You can tell me that a guild that is homosexual wouldn't get harassed in an online MMO. That right there breaks blizzards no harassment policy. It is clear that such a controversial and politically charged issue is sure to bring about controversy and flaming/harassment. That clearly breaks the rules.

 

[Sulkdodds]

There's nothing 'clear' about it.

You've still failed to explain why exactly you believe that blame is on the 'inciter' rather than the agressor. I repeat: in the past you've been very staunch about the opinion that America is not in any way to blame for 9/11 (I think you have, anyway) so I find it surprising that here you are, acting as if somehow abuse is anyone's fault but the barrens-bastards'. See 'rapist' analogy. As for your reply to Mecha's 'racist' analogy, are you saying you would support the closure of such a group?

Hey, look, analogy. Do you see what I did there?

You can tell me that a guild that is homosexual wouldn't get harassed in an online MMO. That right there breaks blizzards no harassment policy.

You are correct. Except you have failed to explain this statement adaquately. What you really mean is:
'A guild that is homosexual would get harassed in an online MMO. That right there (that harassment) breaks blizzards no harassment policy.'

People are entitles to their opinions of what they find disgusting.

Essentially correct, but you fail to recognise that this gives you no right to harass people, and you fail to differentiate between 'being gay' and 'having gay sex'.

I would also note the fact that despite all the 'controversy' about this gay guild, the last time I was on the barrens there was none of that shit. People have better things to do. The guild already exists, does it not? So we are already in a situation where the barrens should be a riot of homophobia.

Are they? 24/7? Or has it subsided yet?

 

[Glirk Dient]

There's nothing 'clear' about it.

You've still failed to explain why exactly you believe that blame is on the 'inciter' rather than the agressor. I repeat: in the past you've been very staunch about the opinion that America is not in any way to blame for 9/11 (I think you have, anyway) so I find it surprising that here you are, acting as if somehow abuse is anyone's fault but the barrens-bastards'. See 'rapist' analogy.

The inciter has to do something to incite the harassment. If it is something conciously done that is known to offend others then that can be considered harassing other players indirectly that incites players to directly harass them. While the agressor is more so at fault it doesn't mean the inciter is without fault.

As for the 9/11 thing you must have me confused with someone else. I have only said we didn't blow up the towers, it was the planes that caused them to collapse.

You are correct. Except you have failed to explain this statement adaquately. What you really mean is:
'A guild that is homosexual would get harassed in an online MMO. That right there (that harassment) breaks blizzards no harassment policy.'

As I said before, such a controversial issue brought into a game like this is indirect harassment.

Essentially correct, but you fail to recognise that this gives you no right to harass people, and you fail to differentiate between 'being gay' and 'having gay sex'.

I would also note the fact that despite all the 'controversy' about this gay guild, the last time I was on the barrens there was none of that shit. People have better things to do. The guild already exists, does it not? So we are already in a situation where the barrens should be a riot of homophobia.

Are they? 24/7? Or has it subsided yet?

Right you are, people have no place to harass others but issues this controversial bring it about and it does cause a problem. On your server they might not but once I rolled on a new server and when I got to the barrens it was nothing buy homophobes and chuck norris freaks. So the rules are there because such things do cause problems.

 

[Sulkdodds]

The inciter has to do something to incite the harassment. If it is something conciously done that is known to offend others then that can be considered harassing other players indirectly that incites players to directly harass them.

Let's look at the nature of their 'indirect harassment'.

They have not declared they are better than anyone else. They are not marching up to people and punching them in the face. That is incitement. No, they are merely creating a 'safe haven' from all this bullshit you claim is so endemic in WoW. To suggest that this constitutes an incitement to harassment, and to claim they're in the wrong for doing that is crazy, even without going into arguments about to what extent does an 'inciter' have any blame...

Fair enough about the 9/11 thing though.

 

[Glirk Dient]

Let's look at the nature of their 'indirect harassment'.

They have not declared they are better than anyone else. They are not marching up to people and punching them in the face. That is incitement. No, they are merely creating a 'safe haven' from all this bullshit you claim is so endemic in WoW. To suggest that this constitutes an incitement to harassment, and to claim they're in the wrong for doing that is crazy, even without going into arguments about to what extent does an 'inciter' have any blame...

Fair enough. I am still holding onto my belief highly controversial subjects have no place in games as they do lead to harassment.

I just wonder if I made a guild with another subject that is highly controversial and political would I be allowed to or is it only OK in this case because it deals with homosexuality? That was my original concern when I started posting in this thread...it has gone astray since then.

 

[madog]

Good to see Blizzard enforces these rules. It's so stupid when people start spamming gay or lesbian things in games.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

I just wonder if I made a guild with another subject that is highly controversial and political would I be allowed to or is it only OK in this case because it deals with homosexuality?

The guild said "people of all sexualities welcome."

To test your theory, make a guild that says "people of all cultures welcome".

If you are punished in any way, I will eat my hat.

Religion, race and nationality are the world's most accurate analogues to sexuality.

 

[Glirk Dient]

The guild said "people of all sexualities welcome."

To test your theory, make a guild that says "people of all cultures welcome".

If you are punished in any way, I will eat my hat.

Religion, race and nationality are the world's most accurate analogues to sexuality.

Don't forget pedophelia!

Oh wait...thats not like it either...

Nobody really cares what culture/country you are from when you compare it to homosexuality. Homosexuality is a huge moral issue that a lot of people feel very strongly about. Nobody cares if your from sweden. So really they aren't alike.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Don't forget pedophelia!

Oh wait...thats not like it either...

Nobody really cares what culture/country you are from when you compare it to homosexuality. Homosexuality is a huge moral issue that a lot of people feel very strongly about. Nobody cares if your from sweden. So really they aren't alike.

Goddamnit glirk, pedophilia is harmful! Gay people are not!
Think before you say things!
This is what? The eighth time?

You also completely disregarded the elements of race and of religion.

People exist in our world who hate the french, hate the arabs, hate the jews, hate the christians, hate the germans, hate the americans, hate the palestinians, hate the israelis, hate the women, hate the men ETC ETC ETC.
And there are people who hate the gays.

And guess what? They are all equally wrong, because none of that hate is based in logic. None of it.
It's all cultural bias, prejudice, disgust and immaturity.
You can't mistreat americans because george bush sucks as president.
You can't mistreat the gays because they're "gross" or "offensive".
You can't mistreat the jews because you believe there's a conspiracy.
You can't mistreat women because they're "inferior".

These are all views held by real people in the real world.
They are all "controversial".
They are all illogical, and illogical in the realm of secular policy means WRONG.

The minute you decide that something disgusts you and you have no logical basis for that disgust, that means you have failed to hold a valid opinion.

You have failed to create a valid controversy.

There is a difference between a valid controversy and a bunch of religious extremists raging against the secular world we live in.

 

[Glirk Dient]

Goddamnit glirk, pedophilia is harmful! Gay people are not!
Think before you say things!
This is what? The eighth time?

You also completely disregarded the elements of race and of religion.

People exist in our world who hate the french, hate the arabs, hate the jews, hate the christians, hate the germans, hate the americans, hate the palestinians, hate the israelis, hate the women, hate the men ETC ETC ETC.
And there are people who hate the gays.

And guess what? They are all equally wrong, because none of that hate is based in logic. None of it.
It's all cultural bias, prejudice, disgust and immaturity.
You can't mistreat americans because george bush sucks as president.
You can't mistreat the gays because they're "gross" or "offensive".
You can't mistreat the jews because you believe there's a conspiracy.
You can't mistreat women because they're "inferior".

These are all views held by real people in the real world.
They are all "controversial".
They are all illogical, and illogical in the realm of secular policy means WRONG.

The minute you decide that something disgusts you and you have no logical basis for that disgust, that means you have failed to hold a valid opinion.

You have failed to create a valid controversy.

There is a difference between a valid controversy and a bunch of religious extremists raging against the secular world we live in.

So esentially your saying its wrong to find things disgusting because theres no logic to it?

What if I created a whites only guild? Afterall im not hatting or harassing anyone yet we all know that wouldnt get far

Besides such subjects as homosexuality do offend people. Whether or not it should isn't what is at debate here. Blizzard shouldn't have retracted their statement because subjects like this do indirectly harass players since this is such a controversial issue the amount of players would be a lot more than something small that only affects one or 2.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

So esentially your saying its wrong to find things disgusting because theres no logic to it?

Wrong.
I am saying it is wrong to act on that disgust.

What if I created a whites only guild? Afterall im not hatting or harassing anyone yet we all know that wouldnt get far.

Wrong.
Stop with the false analogies.
The guild in question is not a gay-only guild.

Creating a white-only guild is wrong because there is no valid reason for it to exist. I have already very clearly told you that excluding people based on race is wrong.

I feel as though you are deliberately trying not to understand me.

 

[Glirk Dient]

Creating a white-only guild is wrong because there is no valid reason for it to exist. I have already very clearly told you that excluding people based on race is wrong.

Yet there is a valid reason for a GLBT guild to exist?

We could follow your logic and say "Wrong to who? If they don't like it they should just be tolerant and suck it up".

Granted we today do view it as wrong because it offends people. Again we could follow your logic and say just because those people view it as wrong doesn't mean we should appeal to the negative majority.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

It is GLBT-FRIENDLY.

In other words, it is inclusive to everyone of every sexuality. Everyone in the world.

FFS, it is getting to the point where I can just quote posts from yesterday to refute things you are saying now.

2:

-If something is offensive for a good logical reason, it has done no wrong. (When it is causing no material harm, as literally anything can be deemed offensive.)
-The non-discriminatory guild exists for a logical reason (removing homophobes), and is only offensive to homophobes (who should be removed anyways).
Therefore:
-The guild has done no wrong.

It is good to be anti-homophobe for the same reason it is good to be anti-racism.

Seriously, almost every post in my thread constitutes me repeating myself to you.
Please try harder.

 

[Glirk Dient]

I just edited my post. Read through it.

I dont think we are understanding eachother or mis interpreting what we say. That or our views are just different as im trying to explain things in a different way each time yet you just boil it down and say its not the same or just toss what I say away without looking at the actual issue.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

-If something is offensive for a good logical reason, it has done no wrong. (When it is causing no material harm, as literally anything can be deemed offensive.)

^^^ Do you understand this point?

Homophobia is logically wrong.
It is negative and exclusive for no logical reason.

^^^ Do you understand this point?

The anti-homophobe guild is therefore logically correct, because it opposes what is logically wrong.

^^^Do you understand this point?

I want to make absolutely sure that you understand these points before this continues any further.

 

[Glirk Dient]

Hmm yeah I do. I see what your getting at now. Now that you explained the logic behind it instead of what I was perceiving as "My opinion is right therefor yours is wrong". I guess I have no problem with a GLBT friendly guild now that you explained it that way. If it were something a bit more overt I could see it as being negative but simply being GLBT friendly is fine now that I think about it.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Great.

Now if only you had noted that logic BACK ON PAGE 2 WHEN I SAID THE EXACT SAME POINTS.
Or BACK ON PAGE 3 WHEN I SAID THE EXACT SAME POINTS.
Or BACK AT THE TOP OF THIS PAGE WHEN I SAID THE EXACT SAME POINTS.

/me suicides.

:x

 

[Alexferris]

I disagree! Mecha's logic is flawed. Homosexual guilds should not be allowed to roll Dwarf Priest!

 

[Glirk Dient]

Great.

Now if only you had noted that logic BACK ON PAGE 2 WHEN I SAID THE EXACT SAME POINTS.
Or BACK ON PAGE 3 WHEN I SAID THE EXACT SAME POINTS.
Or BACK AT THE TOP OF THIS PAGE WHEN I SAID THE EXACT SAME POINTS.

/me suicides.

:x

haha...actually you didnt say that! You brought up a good deal many other points but I don't believe you brought that one up before.

 

[gick]

Great.

Now if only you had noted that logic BACK ON PAGE 2 WHEN I SAID THE EXACT SAME POINTS.
Or BACK ON PAGE 3 WHEN I SAID THE EXACT SAME POINTS.
Or BACK AT THE TOP OF THIS PAGE WHEN I SAID THE EXACT SAME POINTS.

/me suicides.

:x

I think that point was made several times on the other two threads about this as well....

 

[Mechagodzilla]

haha...actually you didnt say that! You brought up a good deal many other points but I don't believe you brought that one up before.

I wasn't repeating myself??

Compare the points that you finally agreed with (in the quote boxes) with those earlier points listed below.

Homophobia is logically wrong.
It is negative and exclusive for no logical reason.

Page 2:

"check the logical fallacy thread to see why objecting to something just because it's 'gross' or 'unnatural' to you isn't very smart."

"Homophobes, by definition, are being exclusive in their reasonless alienation of an estimated 10% of the game audience."

"You had made frequent reference to how "Some people get offended when they see obscene/disgusting guilds forming. " without any apparent acknowledgement that that mindset isn't rational."

"they are acting in a matter that is simultaneously irrational and harmful."

Page 3:

"I have already said, there is no wisdom in disgust and no matter the size of the majority (if one exists), they are quantifiably wrong here."

"-Homophobes are offensive for no logical reason. (See the "No wisdom in disgust" fallacy.)"

"-The majority are not using logical arguments (Wisdom in disgust fallacy)."

"Also, the no wisdom in disgust fallacy has shown that there is nothing wrong with gay people, and they should not be objected to."

"No-one has ever, ever, ever, provided a logical explanation for why gays shouldn't be accepted by and included in society."

Page 4:

"The minute you decide that something disgusts you and you have no logical basis for that disgust, that means you have failed to hold a valid opinion. [...] I am saying it is wrong to act on that disgust."

The anti-homophobe guild is therefore logically correct, because it opposes what is logically wrong.

Page 1:

"The sexuality-mentioning group would not need to exist if it weren't for jackass children."

Page 2:

"The gay-friendly guild was made specifically to exclude the kids constantly going "u re homogays lollol""

"The anti-homophobes [...] are being inclusive to all, excluding only when there is a substantial reason (i.e. when the person is being harmful)."

Page 3:

"The point of their organization [...] is not ending homophobic comments, but rather excluding them as much as a player without GM privileges can."

"-The non-discriminatory guild exists for a logical reason (removing homophobes), and is only offensive to homophobes (who should be removed anyways)."

Page 4:

"The guild said "people of all sexualities welcome." [...] Religion, race and nationality are the world's most accurate analogues to sexuality."

"It is GLBT-FRIENDLY.

In other words, it is inclusive to everyone of every sexuality. Everyone in the world. [...] It is good to be anti-homophobe for the same reason it is good to be anti-racism."

"-The non-discriminatory guild exists for a logical reason (removing homophobes), and is only offensive to homophobes (who should be removed anyways)."

.
.
.

I'm glad you do agree now, and I don't mean to be overly pedantic, but the amount of time I spent repeating myself is frankly astonishing.
I hope ya glean a moral from this story.