Bully victim fights back

[flamingdts]

Self defense? Towards the beginning maybe, but that kid could've seriously and permanently damaged the other, and he didn't need to. It may be excusable because he was provoked and is a child, but it certainly shouldn't be made out to be some "Oh, a kid stands up for himself, so awesome, here's a medal" story. This is some Ender's Game shit right here, but this kid'll just end up to be an internet hero rather than a psychologically abused savior of the Earth. Violence begets violence. It isn't admirable to see a kid get seriously hurt because an underdog did it and he was provoked.

What do you mean by self defense at the beginning and not later on?

The kid made one move and walked away, it wasn't like he piled it on and kept punching him.

The kid shouldn't be labeled a hero, and he definitely should not be a some role model for others, but I guess the whole idea of standing up for yourself was too good for the media to pass.

 

[Sheepo]

I was referring more to the general response I've heard IRL and on fbook, directing it at the one person in this thread saying it. I was merely exaggerating with the medal bit. Even at it's most sensationalized everyone acknowledges how bad it it is that it came to this and just how brutal it was. But I still think most people bite their lip and have some base gut reaction of "That jerk had it coming. That kid was ****ing brave and did what he had to do. Good for him, more people should be like him." To some degree they're right, but as it is I think he definitely went far beyond what was necessary to get the job done. Of course that's to be expected, he's an angry child and it would be absurd to expect him to consider the consequences and potential of such an action, but that should be the core of the story in the media or in response to it. One kid almost killed or crippled another kid because he was terrorized by bullying. Which is why your first post ITT was good, because what we should really take away from this is that kid's need help with these sorts of problems in school.

Edit: The above part of my post is directed at Kurrn

You think the body slam was self defense? Because it's pretty hard to be attacked by someone who you're literally holding above your head.

 

[Vegeta897]

I think what he did was normal, and you shouldn't get medals and hero status for doing normal things.

Citizens do not accept prizes for being citizens.

 

[Krynn72]

You think the body slam was self defense? Because it's pretty hard to be attacked by someone who you're literally holding above your head.

self defense?

hard to be attacked by someone who you're literally holding above your head.

self defense

hard to be attacked

Are you implying self defense isn't meant to prevent you from being attacked further? I think by the way the kid began to walk away after body slamming the other, it was fairly obvious he wanted to take care of the issue in one move, and without causing actual damage. I don't feel like there was any intention of permanently harming the kid, and that any serious harm would not have been derived from malicious intent. Of course, that doesn't mean it wouldn't matter if the bully did get hurt, but I think its entirely excusable even if he did, since its not like Corey had any training in fisticuffs, and knew a better way of doing damage enough to prevent retaliation whilst avoiding trauma. The fault would still be entirely upon the adults who could have stopped it, and the adults who didn't teach Corey the proper way of dealing with a situation where he is being attacked while literally with his back against a wall.

Which, I think, is pretty much exactly what you were saying? So yeah, I agree.

 

[Maestro]

And thus, it is proven that HL2.net will argue about anything.

 

[Sheepo]

Well he's conceding something that has very little to do with what he's arguing about.

Fair point, but what I'm trying to point out is that what he did went beyond what was necessary to prevent immediate retaliation. Yes, it's still self defense, but it was far worse than the situation actually required. Which I suppose is a judgement call, but I really think there are any number of alternatives to what he did which would've prevented further violence while not being nearly as brutal or potentially dangerous. As I said, it was a moment of passion, and he was a child, and this is a predictable action which can't really be condemned. I'm just saying, he could've acted far better to defend himself.

 

[Stylo]

Well he's conceding something that has very little to do with what he's arguing about.

Fair point, but what I'm trying to point out is that what he did went beyond what was necessary to prevent immediate retaliation. Yes, it's still self defense, but it was far worse than the situation actually required. Which I suppose is a judgement call, but I really think there are any number of alternatives to what he did which would've prevented further violence while not being nearly as brutal or potentially dangerous. As I said, it was a moment of passion, and he was a child, and this is a predictable action which can't really be condemned. I'm just saying, he could've acted far better to defend himself.

I don't really see how anyone can tell this kid he "could've acted better". His action put an immediate stop to the bullying and he defended himself. Are you suggesting that he should've stopped for a moment and pondered the best manner in which he could take out a bully whilst doing the least harm? Pfft.

Casey couldn't take it anymore, he pulled a move in the moment and it put an end to his years of torment. I wouldn't say there were better alternatives. Any alternative would've ended in either the same result or him still being bullied.

This is just typical retrospective, high-horse, clap-trap in my opinion. Put yourself in his situation.

 

[Remus]

ITT Sheepo was a bully in highschool.

 

[Sheepo]

I don't really see how anyone can tell this kid he "could've acted better". His action put an immediate stop to the bullying and he defended himself. Are you suggesting that he should've stopped for a moment and pondered the best manner in which he could take out a bully whilst doing the least harm? Pfft.

Casey couldn't take it anymore, he pulled a move in the moment and it put an end to his years of torment. I wouldn't say there were better alternatives. Any alternative would've ended in either the same result or him still being bullied.

This is just typical retrospective, high-horse, clap-trap in my opinion. Put yourself in his situation.

It may be excusable because he was provoked and is a child

Of course that's to be expected, he's an angry child and it would be absurd to expect him to consider the consequences and potential of such an action

As I said, it was a moment of passion, and he was a child, and this is a predictable action which can't really be condemned

Yeah.

The ideal alternative has the same effect on the situation and isn't so dangerous. The bully ended up okay, but he obviously could've been seriously hurt, and that risk could've been avoided.

 

[flamingdts]

Well he's conceding something that has very little to do with what he's arguing about.

Fair point, but what I'm trying to point out is that what he did went beyond what was necessary to prevent immediate retaliation. Yes, it's still self defense, but it was far worse than the situation actually required. Which I suppose is a judgement call, but I really think there are any number of alternatives to what he did which would've prevented further violence while not being nearly as brutal or potentially dangerous. As I said, it was a moment of passion, and he was a child, and this is a predictable action which can't really be condemned. I'm just saying, he could've acted far better to defend himself.

What you're asking for is unrealistic, and impossible even amongst adults or the most decorated police officers to perform.

I could see that what he did could warrant a lot of harm. But like you said, he is a kid who doesn't know method of self defense. In fact, even if he did, his self defense would be instinctive, and throwing the kid was the first thing that came to his mind.

You don't plan out self defense, you do the first thing that comes to your mind. There is a reason a lot of officers kill criminals in acts of self defense, and they often get scrutinized for not aiming at the leg instead. And these guys are trained to know how to react under such circumstances, yet even they falter to make the right move under pressure.

 

[JUL3]

This is old...
Must say I'm surprised by reactions here, completely different to everyone else I know.

ITT Sheepo was a bully in highschool.

He still is.

 

[Stylo]

What you're asking for is unrealistic, and impossible even amongst adults or the most decorated police officers to perform.

I could see that what he did could warrant a lot of harm. But like you said, he is a kid who doesn't know method of self defense. In fact, even if he did, his self defense would be instinctive, and throwing the kid was the first thing that came to his mind.

You don't plan out self defense, you do the first thing that comes to your mind. There is a reason a lot of officers kill criminals in acts of self defense, and they often get scrutinized for not aiming at the leg instead. And these guys are trained to know how to react under such circumstances, yet even they falter to make the right move under pressure.

I have to agree with this. It's all too easy to for people to climb up on the hill and say "I would have done this" or "The kid could've done this" but in reality, you're still looking at it retrospectively. I doubt that in the heat of the moment that most people in here would act in an entirely planned out, well thought and non-instinctive manner when threatened, especially after years and years of torment building up inside of you. At the point that he snapped, he did the first thing that his instinct told him to and that was to neutralise the bully. I doubt that the method occurred to him at all. I doubt he even meant to powerslam the guy into the ground.

 

[Sheepo]

I wonder if you guys even read my posts. I'm not condemning the kid's actions. I clearly said that in the circumstances he can't be blamed for what he did. I'm not even saying I would've acted differently. I'm saying that he could've handled the situation less recklessly. He could've. Unless you want to argue that it was physically impossible for him to neutralize the situation without so much potential risk to his attacker, I'm right. Please tell me that it was physically impossible that the boy could've taken a different course of action as he literally held the other person over his head.

 

[flamingdts]

I wonder if you guys even read my posts. I'm not condemning the kid's actions. I clearly said that in the circumstances he can't be blamed for what he did. I'm not even saying I would've acted differently. I'm saying that he could've handled the situation less recklessly. He could've. Unless you want to argue that it was physically impossible for him to neutralize the situation without so much potential risk to his attacker, I'm right. Please tell me that it was physically impossible that the boy could've taken a different course of action as he literally held the other person over his head.

I have read your post, but you didn't read mine.

I'm saying you are expecting way too much from the kid and humanity in general.

Self defense is instinctual and based on reflex, not planned. Going back to my earlier examples, even police officers, who are trained not to make reckless decisions, often kill criminals in self-defense. Could they have shot the leg instead? Sure, but under pressure, anything could happen.

What you're asking for is the Casey kid to punch or kick the kid instead of throwing him. And what I'm telling you is a 15 year old kid not trained in martial arts will not know how to perform a self defense move besides the very first thing that comes into his mind.

I mean even a punch or a kick could seriously injure the bully, what if the bully lands his head on the concrete after Casey punches him in the nose? You honestly can't be expecting this kid to perform some submission move on the bully or something.

 

[Sheepo]

I have read your post, but you didn't read mine.

Well let's see about that:

I'm saying you are expecting way too much from the kid and humanity in general.

No, that's exactly what I thought you were saying and it shows you have no idea what I'm saying. In my last post and the quotes of myself in the post preceding it (that's three reiterations) I've very clearly said that I didn't expect anything better from this kid or the situation. I've said that the circumstances would make it unfair to. I've said that this is a predictable and understandable reaction. The only thing I've proposed is that he could've handled the situation better. He could've. It was possible to. I'm not saying he should've and was wrong not to. That he crossed some line by not doing so. I'm merely stating that it was possible that the situation be handled with less risk.

 

[flamingdts]

Well let's see about that:

No, that's exactly what I thought you were saying and it shows you have no idea what I'm saying. In my last post and the quotes of myself in the post preceding it (that's three reiterations) I've very clearly said that I didn't expect anything better from this kid or the situation. I've said that the circumstances would make it unfair to. I've said that this is a predictable and understandable reaction. The only thing I've proposed is that he could've handled the situation better. He could've. It was possible to. I'm not saying he should've and was wrong not to. That he crossed some line by not doing so. I'm merely stating that it was possible that the situation be handled with less risk.

I get that you are arguing it's possible to handle the situation better, but I'm saying that the kid couldn't. I'm saying what the kid did was the first thing that came to his mind, and like I said you don't plan out self defense.

 

[NeptuneUK]

I can tell none of you guys here have actually been in a fight.

 

[Zephos]

ITT flamingdts and Sheepo both accept each other's opinions as correct yet continue to argue instead of make love.

 

[JUL3]

I can tell none of you guys here have actually been in a fight.

It's a gaming forum... did you expect this to be where all the macho jocks from highschool hang out?

 

[Sheepo]

but I'm saying that the kid couldn't.

Well you're wrong.

I'm saying what the kid did was the first thing that came to his mind, and like I said you don't plan out self defense.

Yeah, he acted entirely on instinct, but he didn't have to (not entirely). He didn't, but you can.

 

[Stylo]

It's a gaming forum... did you expect this to be where all the macho jocks from highschool hang out?

You don't have to be a "macho jock" to have been in a fight. Just saying.

 

[flamingdts]

Well you're wrong.

Yeah, he acted entirely on instinct, but he didn't have to (not entirely). He didn't, but you can.

Saying he didn't have to act on instinct under heavy pressure is like saying he should've overcome the genetic codes embed into him. But I know this is only going to branch off into some irrelevant debate.

To each his own I guess.

 

[Sheepo]

You're telling me that once he'd gotten a grip on the other child he literally had no choice at all and absolutely had to pick him up and slam him into the ground? That anytime any person is in a high stress violent situation they are absolutely unaccountable for their actions?

 

[Remus]

Sheepo, you already admited that you didn't expect him to behave any differently. Was it possible to deal with the situation better? Sure, possible. Was it likely? Hell no. You're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

And to answer your question, depending on the circumstances and the person, no, they are not held accountable for their actions.

 

[Sheepo]

Sheepo, you already admited that you didn't expect him to behave any differently.

I didn't admit it. It wasn't a consession. I simply said it, from the very beginning. It's never had anything to do with what I'm arguing, despite several people insisting it is solely what I'm arguing.

Was it possible to deal with the situation better? Sure, possible. Was it likely? Hell no.

Are you pointing this out for any reason? I've already made it pretty clear that I think both of those things are true.

You're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

Does this sentence actually mean anything, really? Could you not say it about virtually any argument that isn't held in a situation in which an action can be made based on the decision? He's saying something that I think is wrong. We're arguing. Oh no.

And to answer your question, depending on the circumstances and the person, no, they are not held accountable for their actions.

Well yes, of course circumstances matter. I'm not sure I can imagine a case where I think anyone can be forgiven on the basis that their actions are wholly instinctual and not consciously decided whatsoever, but that's more a philosophical view on my end than an actual argument. As it is I think the kid could've picked him up off the ground and then done any number of things other then slamming him lke that. It was an instinctual thing, but I think he could've stopped himself from doing it.

 

[Remus]

So wait, let me get this straight, the only reason you're arguing with him is because he said that "the kid couldn't have done any better", instead of "it wasn't likely for the kid to have done any better"? That's it? Really?
Well, have fun then.

 

[flamingdts]

You're telling me that once he'd gotten a grip on the other child he literally had no choice at all and absolutely had to pick him up and slam him into the ground? That anytime any person is in a high stress violent situation they are absolutely unaccountable for their actions?

Come on now. I mean I know they do it in movies but it's literally impossible in reality.

The kid is not going to have some sudden epiphany when he lifted the bully up.

I mean how often do people throw a punch and stop midway just before they hit the person? You see that in movies but that's just unrealistic.

 

[Sheepo]

Movies? The **** are you talking about? I'm talking about self control, rather than blindly following base instincts. You think not body slamming some one you're holding is literally impossible? I think... you may be talking about actual physics? Stopping yourself from throwing a punch is very different from picking up and holding a person above your head. Niether is impossible. I just... have you been in a fight? When did you stop? I'm genuinely horrified by this outlook that any sort of violent action is completely out of your control as soon as you begin it.

 

[flamingdts]

Movies? The **** are you talking about? I'm talking about self control, rather than blindly following base instincts. You think not body slamming some one you're holding is literally impossible? I think... you may be talking about actual physics? Stopping yourself from throwing a punch is very different from picking up and holding a person above your head. Niether is impossible. I just... have you been in a fight? When did you stop? I'm genuinely horrified by this outlook that any sort of violent action is completely out of your control as soon as you begin it.

Come on now, let's not degrade this argument to "you haven't been in a fight so that isn't a valid argument", because that isn't going anywhere.

And like I said, your argument is that the kid could've controlled himself when he picked up the kid.

I'm saying that's ****ing stupid, and same goes for stopping mid way when you're punching someone, something that only happens in movies.

When you punch someone, do you go in a sudden epiphany and stop yourself just before your fist lands in their face? Of course not, same goes for this kid. Once he picked him up in the air, how could you expect him to gently lay the bully down afterwards? That's an unrealistic expectation.

And what's with your last point? The Casey kid made one move, he controlled himself.

Seriously, I don't get why you're making it out like this Casey kid was some lunatic violent loving child who has no self control.

To be honest, I think your argument would be valid if you said the Casey kid could've went for a "less extreme" form of self defense, but then again that would be a stupid argument.

 

[morgs]

I don't think any of us can decide whether he 'could have' held back or 'should have', we didn't know what he was feeling at the time or what was going through his mind. Usually when someone snaps like that it's just blind anger, he might not have even realized what he'd done until he'd done it.

 

[Krynn72]

If you're in a fight, you're not going to stop fighting before your first attack is finished. This kid stopped fighting after the first move he did to protect himself. What you're wanting, it sounds like, is for him to have planned out his very first attack in such a way so as to not threaten injury, whilst avoiding retaliation. If you can do that in a situation like the one he was in, then well god damn, I've never met anybody like you.

 

[Remus]

To be honest, I think your argument would be valid if you said the Casey kid could've went for a "less extreme" form of self defense, but then again that would be a stupid argument.

If I'm understanding him correctly, that's exactly what he's arguing, and as far as I'm concerned that's an unrealistic expectation.

 

[Bad^Hat]

This thread is hilarious and you're all misinterpreting Sheepo's point.

Granted, the point is kind of silly, but you're sillier for continually taking it out of proportion.

 

[JUL3]

You don't have to be a "macho jock" to have been in a fight. Just saying.

Stereotypically, if you sit at the nerd table you don't get into fights, you're bullied.

 

[Bad^Hat]

Nerds get angry too. I lashed out at bullies once or twice. Didn't end well for me, but it beats doing nothing at all.

 

[Sheepo]

Come on now, let's not degrade this argument to "you haven't been in a fight so that isn't a valid argument", because that isn't going anywhere.

I wasn't. I'm seriously asking because I'm worried your opponent may not be among the living.

And like I said, your argument is that the kid could've controlled himself when he picked up the kid. I'm saying that's ****ing stupid, and same goes for stopping mid way when you're punching someone, something that only happens in movies.

I don't think I can argue against "****ing stupid". Maybe you can tell me why that is and what that means.

When you punch someone, do you go in a sudden epiphany and stop yourself just before your fist lands in their face? Of course not, same goes for this kid. Once he picked him up in the air, how could you expect him to gently lay the bully down afterwards? That's an unrealistic expectation.

As I've said, going on like seven times now, I didn't expect it. I'm just pointing out that it's possible and he could've done it. Not to mention that punching is an entirely different process, as I've said. Picking some one up is separate from slamming them down. Not that either is impossible. Of course, for the punch you would probably have to plan to stop before hand; it does seem highly improbable, possibly impossible, that you could decide against hitting a person mid swing and actually stop yourself. I've never seen either in a movie. As for the pick up, I think you could probably physically stop yourself from slamming him after you began, but what I'm really trying to say is that this kid could've, at any point, been deciding what to do next and whether or not that involved huge potential damage to another person. I'm not arguing that instincts aren't powerful and are easy to give in to, I'm just saying that human beings have the power to consciously override and act contrary to them.

And what's with your last point? The Casey kid made one move, he controlled himself.

Exactly, but why did the control come into play there? You make it sound as if he's an unstoppable instinct machine but he quite clearly hit that point and said, "Oh, that's enough, I've done what needs doing." I think the idea that his instincts have that much power and then just turn off like a light go in the face of this whole idea that no person could possibly be accountable for their actions if they're defending them self.

Seriously, I don't get why you're making it out like this Casey kid was some lunatic violent loving child who has no self control.

I'd love for you to quote me where I said that. You have a marvelous talent for finding non-existent implications in my posts that I've already explicitly rejected.

To be honest, I think your argument would be valid if you said the Casey kid could've went for a "less extreme" form of self defense, but then again that would be a stupid argument.

Well that's exactly what I've been saying. Sorry I'm so ****ing stupid.

 

[Stylo]

Stereotypically, if you sit at the nerd table you don't get into fights, you're bullied.

I'm British. We don't really have nerds / jocks / etc.

We do have bullys and bulliers and such but no particular 'stereotypical' groups. At least not where I grew up. :|

 

[flamingdts]

Well that's exactly what I've been saying. Sorry I'm so ****ing stupid.

I think I only need to respond to this part.

It's pretty ****ing stupid because you can't expect a 15 year old, with no lessons in self defense, raging up, to know the least damaging method of attacking the bully. That's ridiculous.

And like I said, who is to say if the Casey kid went for a punch instead the bully won't land his head on the concrete? Or what if the Casey kid kicked him so hard the bully's shin cracks?

You could argue that things could've turned out better in another dimension, in another reality or under different circumstances that would encourage Casey to punch someone instead of throwing them. But to say the Casey kid could've done better when he has absolutely no knowledge of self defense? Hell no.

That's like saying you could've done better in building a Rocket that just flew into space and blew up. You have absolutely no ****ing idea how to build a rocket, so how could anyone say you could have done a better job? Luck is the only variable here.

As for the pick up, I think you could probably physically stop yourself from slamming him after you began, but what I'm really trying to say is that this kid could've, at any point, been deciding what to do next and whether or not that involved huge potential damage to another person.

The hell. You are expecting A LOT from a 15 year old with no knowledge of self-defense, pumped up and raged up with at most a one second window to react.....

Man, you must be a Mr. Miyagi in Karate kid when you fight. You badassly take down your opponents with utmost focus on doing minimal damage, then preach them on the virtues of self control and peace after.

 

[Sheepo]

No. I quit. You're astonishing. Worse than No Limit. Like a brick wall. Amazing.

 

[flamingdts]

Don't be a hypocrite, the same could be said about you.

And I'm just pointing out how ludicrous your argument is, it's nothing personal. You might simply be self-actualized, and no one else is at that point of greatness yet.