Bush: The worst president ever?

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oh seinfeldrules, that old "I'll divert attention from the evidence by mentioning Bill "I'm all hands" Clinton" trick again? ...sigh, it's really getting old
 
oh seinfeldrules, that old "I'll divert attention from the evidence by mentioning Bill "I'm all hands" Clinton" trick again? ...sigh, it's really getting old
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Actually, he's been keeping No Limit on the ropes for quite sometime. Both have had significant points, but SeinfeldRules has already answered many of No Limits questions. But the topics question I think can be answered already:

Worst President Ever? No.

Our economy and political system have a pattern -- unfortunately. If it bounces or bends to a certain extreme, one mark of the pattern gets completely ignored or drowned in complication. Of course, the fallout means that the other mark gets fixiated with more attention and tuning.

Often times, new Presidents draw the short end of the stick when these marks flex and attempt to bend attentives. Bush drew the short end of the stick on a lot of things, but he was not the Catalyst for these changes. Nethire was Clinton ...

So, if that excuses the economy and a few hundred hanging-chads, then we know it wont excuse a lack of scrutiny to the threat of 9/11, and the pretenses for invading Iraq. However we disagree on the latter topics, will be exploited in later debates but right now, I can easily say that between looking down and up our Presidential line, that Bush is not entirely our worst President; or entirely the catalyst for the series of unfortunate "Oopses" we've been through as a nation.
 
Oh, and by the way, I just checked CNN.com and FoxNews.com. I couldnt find an article about your man Kerry's speech today. Either its being slowly reported, or people just really dont give a damn about him anymore.
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He didn't show up, I am so pissed off at him right now. I think there is a chance he caved in to political pressure; if he did I will lose all respect for him. Lets see what happens within the next week or so; he better have a damn good excuse and he better address this on the senate floor soon.
seinfeldrules said:
I think it doesnt add up to the powerful quotes I have from people like Bill Clinton, George Bush, and John Kerry who all say the same things supporting the case against Iraq.
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[/quote]
This whole Clinton thing is getting extremely annoying and makes me think you can't even have a valid debate anymore. Please, stop using classic Republican tactics (bring up how horrible Clinton was everytime you can't counter anything). I already told you my position on Clinton and Iraq WMDs. You didn't respond to that position so lets leave it at that as it has nothing to do with what I am asking you. What I am asking you is extremely simple but you are making it seem like I am talking to a programmed machine.

I posted over 3 powerful examples and many other key facts of how Bush and his administration mislead the country in to war and they did consciously. one of these is a powerful, authentic summary of a meeting that took place in Great Britian which included Blair and many key British intelligence officials that agreed intelligence would have to be fixed to support Bush policy of invading Iraq. I am still waiting for you to refute any of this evidance; saying something about Clinton isn't valid (especially when I already addressed that) and you will have to do much better than that. If you can't that means you know Bush mislead the world, caused over 1,600 of our soldiers and thousands more of innocent civillians to die; but because of your blind partisan support you could careless. But I guess thats fine, no one in your family died so why should you care?
 
Actually, he's been keeping No Limit on the ropes for quite sometime. Both have had significant points, but SeinfeldRules has already answered many of No Limits questions.
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His defense was that Clinton attacked Iraq using the same intelligance. I already refuted that. Clinton's justification for attacking Iraq was based fully on the fact that Saddam threw out the weapon inspectors. He attacked suspected weapon sites avoiding many civillian casualties (sadly there were still quite a few). Bush invaded the entire country after Saddam complied fully but based his justification on terrorism and WMDs eventhough he said he would avoid war if Saddam complied (which he did). I do disagree in many areas with what Clinton did and how he went about it but Clinton has absolutely nothing to do with Bush misleading the entire country and bringing up Clinton hardly refutes any of the key facts and evidance I posted.
 
CptStern said:
here No Limit, here's some material for you:


Ten Appalling Lies We Were Told About Iraq




notice that none of the lies were attributed to Kerry ..all came from bush's big fat lying mouth
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It doesn't matter, I feel like you simply can not have a reasonable discussion with a Republican. I already know the reply he will give you; but Clinton said... They will never admit Bush lied as that would mean they will support a lying SOB that murdered thousands blindly. Lying to themselves is much easier.

How they can support these people in the white house amazes me. I was wondering, did the downing street memo get a lot of attention in the Canadian media? How did the right wing there try to spin it, did they reference Clinton?
 
No Limit said:
It doesn't matter, I feel like you simply can not have a reasonable discussion with a Republican. I already know the reply he will give you; but Clinton said... They will never admit Bush lied as that would mean they will support a lying SOB that murdered thousands blindly. Lying to themselves is much easier.

How they can support these people in the white house amazes me. I was wondering, did the downing street memo get a lot of attention in the Canadian media? How did the right wing there try to spin it, did they reference Clinton?
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heh, no one listens to the right wing in canada ...they're too focused on the same sex marriage issue to be bothered with anytrhing else ...but the right wing did try to push the canadian government to enter the war early on ...thankfully our government upheld international law and said they wouldnt get involved in an illegal invasion ...clinton was a bit of joke here ...more for the fact that americans were so outraged by his little indiscretions ...we were amused ...disturbed by the uproar but amused


it's funny how a president who's unfaithful is more vilified than a president who destroys an entire nation based on lies ...the irony is staggering
 
CptStern said:
heh, no one listens to the right wing in canada ...they're too focused on the same sex marriage issue to be bothered with anytrhing else ...but the right wing did try to push the canadian government to enter the war early on ...thankfully our government upheld international law and said they wouldnt get involved in an illegal invasion ...clinton was a bit of joke here ...more for the fact that americans were so outraged by his little indiscretions ...we were amused ...disturbed by the uproar but amused


it's funny how a president who's unfaithful is more vilified than a president who destroys an entire nation based on lies ...the irony is staggering
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Clinton is a joke here too even among Democrats; who wouldn't find something like that funny? I still crack up at the occasional Monica/Bill joke. But what happened in his sex life has hardly anything to do with his policies and the fact Republicans use a BJ to discredit him simply means they got nothing else. And to impeach a president (only the second time in history) over a BJ just shows how abusive of their power they are when they are in power (they abused their power in congress tiwce this year alone). If they wouldn't have the BJ defense they would have to say something idiotic such as Clinton inherited a good economy and then gave away a horrible one (even if the CBO disagrees). But whatever, this needs a new Clinton thread; I want Seinfeld to actually address what I posted (and you posted) about Bush lying and I hope he takes it seriously. I personally think that morally he owes it to the soldiers that have died for the lies he is trying to defend to at least look at this objectively.
 
the funny thing is that we werent laughing at bill but rather at all the people who made it such a big deal


anyone remember the Power of Nightmares bit (I think it was the neo-con bit in the second part) where a republican whacko group did everything in their power to discredit Clinton? when asked in an interview if any of it was true he said: " it doesnt matter if it was true or not, we achieved our goal"
 
of how Bush and his administration mislead the country in to war and they did consciously.
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See, I just dont buy that if his opponents from the left were saying the exact same things. Because of that, it points to the intel. community failing more than Bush.

If you can't that means you know Bush mislead the world, caused over 1,600 of our soldiers and thousands more of innocent civillians to die;
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I love how you leave out the fact that he helped topple one of the worst dicators of this century, but I suppose "because of your blind partisan support you could careless."
 
CptStern said:
the funny thing is that we werent laughing at bill but rather at all the people who made it such a big deal


anyone remember the Power of Nightmares bit (I think it was the neo-con bit in the second part) where a republican whacko group did everything in their power to discredit Clinton? when asked in an interview if any of it was true he said: " it doesnt matter if it was true or not, we achieved our goal"
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But Clinton lied, he should have been kicked out of office just for that.
 
I love how you leave out the fact that he helped topple one of the worst dicators of this century, but I suppose "because of your blind partisan support you could careless."
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Look, I am not going to respond to these stupid republican talking points. Yes, we brought down Saddam and left the country in ruins; why don't you ask the mothers that are in the same postion as the mother of Pat Tillman if it was worth it. I do not care about your fantasy that Saddam was terrorizing the world; I care about the fact that Bush knew he couldn't get justification for the war based on the fact Saddam was bad so he lied.

seinfeldrules said:
See, I just dont buy that if his opponents from the left were saying the exact same things. Because of that, it points to the intel. community failing more than Bush.
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What do you not buy? I gave you 3 key peices of evidance that he lied and mislead us in to war (along with the evidance Stern posted) and can provide much more. I want you to address that evidance and what is faulty about that evidance I posted. If you can't find anything wrong with this evidance that clearly means it is accurate, is it not?
 
Foxtrot said:
But Clinton lied, he should have been kicked out of office just for that.
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Then clearly Bush needs to be thrown out of office. Stern posted 10 undisputable lies Bush and his administration told to gain support for the war.
 
Foxtrot said:
But Clinton lied, he should have been kicked out of office just for that.
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lied about getting a BJ ....but bush is ok cuzx it was only about invading a whole freakin country ..if clinton should have been impeached for lying, then bush should be executed for lying ...Clintons lie was harmless (unless your name was Hilary) ...Bush's lies led to the destruction of a nation and pretty much gauranteed generations of Mohammed Attas bent on slamming planes into buildings
 
DEATH eVADER said:
Who passed the first act?
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Jackson did ;) and I do agree he was probably the worst president ever, but he was around in the early 1800s.

Seinfeld, are you going to respond to the memo or not? If you aren't I do hope you never defend the Iraq war on this board again.
 
CptStern said:
hazzah!! thanks No Limit, I was looking for that video but couldnt find it ...I'll watch it tonight
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It's some amazing reporting, I wish we had the BBC here. Ties everything together and can't be disputed.
 
we have the bbc but I missed the report cuz I was at work
 
CptStern said:
lied about getting a BJ ....but bush is ok cuzx it was only about invading a whole freakin country ..if clinton should have been impeached for lying, then bush should be executed for lying ...Clintons lie was harmless (unless your name was Hilary) ...Bush's lies led to the destruction of a nation and pretty much gauranteed generations of Mohammed Attas bent on slamming planes into buildings
Click to expand...

Destruction of a nation?

Well, here is a list of what the 1st Cavalry Division has accomplished. They are one of the biggest units in Baghdad, so here is all the destruction just this unit has caused.

* Conducted 800 civil projects totaling $104 million
* Purchased over $5 million of wheat and barley for farmers
* Ordered 2,000 metric tons of fertilizer
* Vaccinated 5,000 head of livestock
* Distributed 2,500 tons of seed
* Distributed over 3,600 sheep
* Rebuilt the College of Agriculture
* Rebuilt the College of Veterinary Medicine
* Contributed $10 million to irrigation projects
* Contributed $8.3 million in grants to Iraqi businesses
* Distributed over 1,000 cans of food
* Distributed 3,500 kerosene heaters
* Distributed over 29,500 frozen chickens
* Donated over 10,000 blankets
* Rebuilt 600 schools
* Built over 350 new schools
* Gave 125,000 backpacks for Baghdad school children
* Purchased food & supplies for a home & school for abandoned special needs students
* Improved 100 medical clinics, totaling $3.7 million.
* Sponsored 14 Iraqi Police Academies
* Conducted 10,000 joint patrols with Iraqi Police & Iraqi National Guard

Now imagine all of the other destruction other divisions are causing, isn't this horrible? Why would we help these people, they were better of being murdered by the millions, tortured and left uneducated and not to mention being gased by the WMDs he doesn't have. America is horrible for helping people, which is why Bush is the worst president ever, he helped people in need. What a bastard.
 
Glirk Dient said:
Destruction of a nation?

Well, here is a list of what the 1st Cavalry Division has accomplished. They are one of the biggest units in Baghdad, so here is all the destruction just this unit has caused.

* Conducted 800 civil projects totaling $104 million
* Purchased over $5 million of wheat and barley for farmers
* Ordered 2,000 metric tons of fertilizer
* Vaccinated 5,000 head of livestock
* Distributed 2,500 tons of seed
* Distributed over 3,600 sheep
* Rebuilt the College of Agriculture
* Rebuilt the College of Veterinary Medicine
* Contributed $10 million to irrigation projects
* Contributed $8.3 million in grants to Iraqi businesses
* Distributed over 1,000 cans of food
* Distributed 3,500 kerosene heaters
* Distributed over 29,500 frozen chickens
* Donated over 10,000 blankets
* Rebuilt 600 schools
* Built over 350 new schools
* Gave 125,000 backpacks for Baghdad school children
* Purchased food & supplies for a home & school for abandoned special needs students
* Improved 100 medical clinics, totaling $3.7 million.
* Sponsored 14 Iraqi Police Academies
* Conducted 10,000 joint patrols with Iraqi Police & Iraqi National Guard

Now imagine all of the other destruction other divisions are causing, isn't this horrible? Why would we help these people, they were better of being murdered by the millions, tortured and left uneducated and not to mention being gased by the WMDs he doesn't have. America is horrible for helping people, which is why Bush is the worst president ever, he helped people in need. What a bastard.
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22111-25076 * number of civilians killed as a direct result of the occupation

...12 years of devastating sanctions leaving over a million iraqis dead ...you'll have to do better than that to tip the karmic scales back in your favour


btw what's the estimated profits from US businesses in Iraq? $680 million to Bechtel Corp (who has close ties to the republican party) ...contracts awarded for workdone to repair water treatment plants ..the same ones the US purposefully destroyed in the 90's
 
CptStern said:
22111-25076 * number of civilians killed as a direct result of the occupation

...12 years of devastating sanctions leaving over a million iraqis dead ...you'll have to do better than that to tip the karmic scales back in your favour
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UN sanctions, and those are all unconfirmed deaths last time I checked.
 
How many would have died under Sadam? More children would have died under sadam alone, we are still saving more people.

Quick google search pulled up this.
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/mostert/050117

Sorry, no dice, every war has civilian deaths, but when there are more deaths in peace time than war time something is wrong. I'm just glad we are saving so many lives over there. 87% less are dying during war time.

Also, what does it matter if there is a company making money from them that is tied close with the republican party? thousands of companies are tied close with both sides, does that mean all of our politicians are corrupt? Afraid not.
 
Foxtrot said:
UN sanctions, and those are all unconfirmed deaths last time I checked.
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we've been over this a million times ..the UN sanctions were part of it but the majority of iraqis died of unsanitary conditions brought upon by contaminated water supplies and insufficient sewege plants ..which the US destroyed

and no, those deaths are confirmed ..for the most part as that is their methodology: they only report deaths they can confirm
 
Glirk Dient said:
How many would have died under Sadam? More children would have died under sadam alone, we are still saving more people.
Click to expand...

wrong ...saddam is estimated to have killed between 200-300 K civilains ...the vast majority of deaths attributed to saddam was during the Iraq-Iran war ..where an estimated 800,000 died ...500,000 children died during the sanctions the majority from preventable diseases from contaminated drinking water

Glirk Dient said:
Quick google search pulled up this.
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/mostert/050117

Sorry, no dice, every war has civilian deaths, but when there are more deaths in peace time than war time something is wrong. I'm just glad we are saving so many lives over there. 87% less are dying during war time.
Click to expand...

you want to post a more credible source? ..sorry but no dice ..far more iraqis died due to US intervention than ever died during saddam's time ...and even then some of those deaths were at the hands of the CIA ..when saddam took power in 1963 the CIA gave him a list of over 4000 communist supporters (some were doctors lawyers teachers) ...they were all immediately executed ...so dont be calling Saddam a monster ...you didnt give a damn when you called him ally even though he was at his worst
 
Glirk Dient said:
Destruction of a nation?

Well, here is a list of what the 1st Cavalry Division has accomplished. They are one of the biggest units in Baghdad, so here is all the destruction just this unit has caused.

* Conducted 800 civil projects totaling $104 million
* Purchased over $5 million of wheat and barley for farmers
* Ordered 2,000 metric tons of fertilizer
* Vaccinated 5,000 head of livestock
* Distributed 2,500 tons of seed
* Distributed over 3,600 sheep
* Rebuilt the College of Agriculture
* Rebuilt the College of Veterinary Medicine
* Contributed $10 million to irrigation projects
* Contributed $8.3 million in grants to Iraqi businesses
* Distributed over 1,000 cans of food
* Distributed 3,500 kerosene heaters
* Distributed over 29,500 frozen chickens
* Donated over 10,000 blankets
* Rebuilt 600 schools
* Built over 350 new schools
* Gave 125,000 backpacks for Baghdad school children
* Purchased food & supplies for a home & school for abandoned special needs students
* Improved 100 medical clinics, totaling $3.7 million.
* Sponsored 14 Iraqi Police Academies
* Conducted 10,000 joint patrols with Iraqi Police & Iraqi National Guard

Now imagine all of the other destruction other divisions are causing, isn't this horrible? Why would we help these people, they were better of being murdered by the millions, tortured and left uneducated and not to mention being gased by the WMDs he doesn't have. America is horrible for helping people, which is why Bush is the worst president ever, he helped people in need. What a bastard.
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Yeah, we had to do all those things becuase we took them away in the first place when we invaded. The country is still in ruins and hundreds are dying weekly; I know you don't care much about Iraqi lives so that might not strike you as much as it strikes me.

However, we have been down that road a million times so if you like post in an existing thread or start a new one. Right now I want you, Seinfeld, and anyone else that defends the war to prove that Bush didn't lie and he did everything he could to avoid war; if you can't I think you owe it to the 1,600 US soldiers that have died in this occupation to admit Bush mislead us in to war and that this war is unjust. Simply not responding and acting like you forgot about this thread means you don't give a rats ass about these soldiers; all you care about is defending your party at all costs.
 
No Limit said:
Yeah, we had to do all those things becuase we took them away in the first place when we invaded. The country is still in ruins and hundreds are dying weekly; I know you don't care much about Iraqi lives so that might not strike you as much as it strikes me.

However, we have been down that road a million times so if you like post in an existing thread or start a new one. Right now I want you, Seinfeld, and anyone else that defends the war to prove that Bush didn't lie and he did everything he could to avoid war; if you can't I think you owe it to the 1,600 US soldiers that have died in this occupation to admit Bush mislead us in to war and that this war is unjust. Simply not responding and acting like you forgot about this thread means you don't give a rats ass about these soldiers; all you care about is defending your party at all costs.
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Glirk is going into the Marines at the end of the summer, so stfu.
 
what does that have to do with anything? if anything he should be MORE aware than the rest of ..he'll be putting his life on the line


besides ...how do you know? he's only made 5 posts and joined within the last few days ....is there something you know that the rest of dont?
 
CptStern said:
what does that have to do with anything? if anything he should be MORE aware than the rest of ..he'll be putting his life on the line


besides ...how do you know? he's only made 5 posts and joined within the last few days ....is there something you know that the rest of dont?
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Ya, he is my brother. He joined for BF2.
 
iyfyoufhl said:
so is it bf2 or mariens?(sorry spl)
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My brother is going into the marines at the end of the summer, he joined this forum for Battlefield 2 (a game that is comeing out soon, the demo is comeing out of Friday, HL2.net has a large group of players that are going to get together and play).
 
Foxtrot said:
Ya, he is my brother. He joined for BF2.
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your biological brother? ...you mean after all the discussions we've had on the war and you still think it's a good idea for him to risk his life over a lie?
 
CptStern said:
your biological brother? ...you mean after all the discussions we've had on the war and you still think it's a good idea for him to risk his life over a lie?
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He is my twin brother, yes biological, it isn't my choice, it is his.
 
Unfortunately for you No Limit I actually care about our soldiers that are in the all volunteer military that have been sent to do their job. I know you dislike America and try to undermine it every chance you get and attempt to make the soldiers deaths seem pointless and try to shame their families by saying their sons death was worthless, but I think that is a just war and we are helping the people are Iraq. I would like one of you to find a list of reasons we went to war, since you think anything I pull up is BS. Find me a list of reasons Bush went to war and tell me how many you believe are true. There are more than the WMD reason, Bush simply attempted to monopolize on that because it is better to say you are going to war these days to defend your country and free the country you are invading of an oppressive dictator who has commited many atrocities and war crimes.

So with that, pull up your own list you find and let's see how unjust this war really is.
 
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