Capital Punishment

[DeusExMachina]

It certainly says something about our society.

 

[Ludah]

I really don't see how people can actually advocate the death penalty any more. I mean, ignoring the hypothetical ****-up scenarios in which you kill an innocent and the obscene costs that go into it, I don't see what it accomplishes. Attempting to rehabilitate or, at the very least, contain such criminals is enough. I hear people talking about the victim's families, but time and time again it has been found that such families often find more peace in the criminal's honest, heartfelt regret and atonement.

So what's a good alternative? I'll be honest. I can't think of anything fullproof at this point. And how you can confirm such acts of remorse to be legitimate is another issue. But surely we can aim for something better than simply killing people off.

 

[Sulkdodds]

There are many arguments, both moral and practical. Here are some stated not long ago:

The death penalty fails on every level except 'incapacitation', which prison achieves just fine, and 'retribution', which I think a certian Son of Man would object to.
- It doesn't deter people, because if criminals plan their crimes they don't expect to get caught, and a large portion of the time their crimes are not planned but rather spontaneous. Statistics also show that it is not generally a good deterrence.
- It doesn't even attempt to rehabilitate people (although statistics show that rehabilitation is rarely possible).
- It is objectionable on a humanitarian basis.
- We can never guarantee that innocent people will not be convicted and punished, especially in times of great paranoia and turmoil (I cite the Birmingham Six again).
- It isn't even cheaper the way they do it in the states.

Actually most people who are killed by lethal injection are organ donors, because the state highly encourages it. In china, executed people are often donated to medical institutions, and now to museam exibits, where their bodies are preserved and put into grotesque positions for the public to enjoy. I would support mandatory organ donation for all people who are executed, but you have to realize that the number of people executed is few and far between, and their organs would only be a small part of the overall pool.

As for the appeals system, I agree that reforms need to be made to make those appeals quicker and less expensive, but as to not loose their value. It would really suck to put an innocent person to death, and there are indeed innocents who are put to death, even after a lengthy appeal. Through DNA evidence, we have found that there have been six people killed by the state of texas since 1972 who have not commited the crime they were charged of. That is why inmates get three appeals.

What really needs to be done is to schedule these appeals in tandem, all perhaps within the same year, and give them special priority over regular cases, so that all of the evidence is already prepared and the lawyers do not have to be payed for 20 years of service on the same case. Also, there should be some sort of special sentence, like "death without appeal" that could be reserved for the most terrible crimes, where insurmountable evidence proves the person guilty.

 

[baxter]

Ok this as been discussed before and my opinions have not changed since.

I disagree with capital punishment because it is an easy way out. There have been high profiles killers in the UK that opted to take this option, Shipmen and Fred West are two that spring to mind. They took their own lives rather than endue the misery of a life behind bars.

Myra Hindley was an infamous child killer, she spent the rest of her miserable life behind bar, despised and hated by all. She died a lonely, unloved, pathetic figure. She in effect received the death penalty, only it took three decades to take effect.

I truly believe life should mean life, for the monsters and ghouls who commit heinous crimes. A life devoid of love, freedom, happiness and most of all hope.

Ian Huntley another monster is now enduring the same fate. Do I wish him dead? Yes of course I do. Would I prefer he endured years of mental torment and anguish first? Yes, 30 or 40 years of it infact.

 

[DeusExMachina]

So essentially, I agree with all of you, but my society sees years of mental torment and anguish immoral.

 

[CptStern]

So essentially, I agree with all of you, but my society sees years of mental torment and anguish immoral.

if that were true it would be legal in every state

 

[99.vikram]

I think some criminals are beyond hope of rehabilitation, so we do need capital punishment.

 

[DeusExMachina]

if that were true it would be legal in every state

Ooooh, sticking up for us now :O

Well, it's obvious that Northen states don't act on it as much as Southern states. That's really all I can say about that.

 

[Bull Goose Loony]

Don't bash my oppinion just because you're a loony.

Last I checked, you didn't even post a reason why I should say it's a good thing.

I did post a reason for you to justify your pro execution stance, I'll type it again. I want you to try and justify it so either :

a) We can see what they are, and see if you actually have a decent argument for it.

or b) You continue to refuse to justify it, because you can't.

 

[CptStern]

Ooooh, sticking up for us now :O

not really :E

 

[15357]

but at least you can say that you tried.
Otherwise you collectively damn every person who has committed a crime as anti social, anti citizen and irretrievable
Surely a life time of punishment outweighs giving the criminal a way out by effectively setting them free while at the same time making you guilty of murder, a crime as bad if not worse than the one the criminal has been convicted of.
You call it liberal to be repulsed by death. I call it barbaric to embrace it.

There are people in this world that cannot be rehabed and do not even repent for their crimes. Can not. Never.

Capital punishment removes these people from society forever. Many 'people' who get life imprisonment come out, in 10 years, 20 years. Its just a matter of time.

As Napoleon put it: "Criminals are only worse when they have mingled with their own kind in prison and are finally set free, even dirtier than before."

I do not embrace death, I merely see it as life.


I would support life imprisonment if it had 0 chance of getting back out and also the inmates were made to do forced labor for 14 hours a day.

 

[99.vikram]

There are people in this world that cannot be rehabed and do not even repent for their crimes. Can not. Never.

QFT.

As Napoleon put it: "Criminals are only worse when they have mingled with their own kind in prison and are finally set free, even dirtier than before."

Very true.

I would support life imprisonment if it had 0 chance of getting back out and also the inmates were made to do forced labor for 14 hours a day.

You lost me there :| How is making the prison system worse going to make good citizens out of criminals?

 

[15357]

You lost me there How is making the prison system worse going to make good citizens out of criminals?

I meant for the un rehabilatable ones.

 

[Remus]

I would support life imprisonment if it had 0 chance of getting back out and also the inmates were made to do forced labor for 14 hours a day.

Yeah I agree, if they can't ever be rehabilitated why not put them to good use in a coal mine or something. I personally find that thing in the States where if you for instance kill three people you get 300 years in prison, stupid.:cheese:

 

[Sulkdodds]

Statistics show that rehabilitation generally doesn't work. I can't remember them exactly, but the numbers of people who get out of prison and people who get out of prison then re-offend are very close.

Of course, this might be because the prison system is not geared towards rehabilitation.

 

[Ludah]

Of course, this might be because the prison system is not geared towards rehabilitation.

Yeah, it really isn't. Not saying that's a bad thing, because I do believe that punishment should play a large part of it. But locking up a guy for a few years and then just letting him loose isn't really accomplishing much. In some cases, they come out worse because of the people they've spent that time with.

I believe that rehabilitation can be possible. But there's just not much of a system for it in place.

 

[jondy]

I meant for the un rehabilatable ones.

Oh, those ones.

 

[15357]

Oh, those ones.

Actually, I don't really care. They all need to pay back society for their crimes.

 

[ríomhaire]

Capital punishment, IMO, should be reserved only for the worst crimes, eg serial murder/rape, genocide, being an emo etc.

 

[PvtRyan]

Because:

A) When you wrongfully convict an innocent person to life in prison, you can let him out and give him a stash of money. Try that to a corpse.
B) Death is not much of a punishment compared to spending your life in a small room.
C) It's more expensive than life in prison.
D) When sentencing someone to death, revenge is your motive. Eye for an eye. Sentencing should be aimed at the protection of society, or the punishment/rehabilitation of a person. And yeah, I would want to see someone dead who murdered my mother, but that's based on emotions. Do you want a legal system work around emotions instead of rationality? I would also smash a burglar into a bloody pulp. So sentence the burglar to an asswhooping?

But you're welcome to give us reasons why death sentence is a better punishment than life in prison (life in prison really being in prison until you die here, not 20 years or anything)? The ONLY thing it has over life sentence is that there's more emotional satisfaction for the victims/loved ones of the victims. GG basing a legal system around emotional responses.

There's no rational reason to kill a criminal once you've captured him and he's in your hands.

 

[ríomhaire]

There's no rational reason to kill a criminal once you've captured him and he's in your hands.

Because a quick injection and burial is easier than housing, feeding and generaly taking care (or neglecting ) a person for 40+ years?

 

[PvtRyan]

Because a quick injection and burial is easier than housing, feeding and generaly taking care (or neglecting ) a person for 40+ years?

No, it isn't.

As I said, sentencing someone to death is more expensive than locking someone up for life. That's not because of the electricty bill on the chair, but all the court cases that are prior to it to lower the chance of locking up an innocent.

And it'll be a sad day when someone's life or death is determined by the amount of trouble it costs.

 

[ríomhaire]

No, it isn't.

As I said, sentencing someone to death is more expensive than locking someone up for life. That's not because of the electricty bill on the chair, but all the court cases that are prior to it to lower the chance of locking up an innocent.

There are more court cases if there is capital punishment? Are you saying they make more of an effort to prove he's guilty if capital punishment is a possibility? Then I sure as want it.

 

[PvtRyan]

There are more court cases if there is capital punishment? Are you saying they make more of an effort to prove he's guilty if capital punishment is a possibility? Then I sure as want it.

No, I'm not saying that. The defendant makes the appeals against it.

But even if they go through a greater effort to prove guilt, innocents still get convicted and it's irreversible.

 

[ríomhaire]

No, I'm not saying that. The defendant makes the appeals against it.

But even if they go through a greater effort to prove guilt, innocents still get convicted and it's irreversible.

Which is why I think it should only be used when someone did, beyond a shadow of a shadow of a doubt, something incredibly awful, such as serial rap/homicide.

BTW, anyone else think it’s funny that awesome is good and awful is bad (Cue someone coming in and explaining how they have separate origins)

 

[jondy]

It's because some awe is great, but a saturation of awe is toxic.

 

[PvtRyan]

Which is why I think it should only be used when someone did, beyond a shadow of a shadow of a doubt, something incredibly awful, such as serial rap/homicide.

But why? The only reason I can think of is emotion and revenge, neither are rational or the thing a justice system should be based on.

Killing a criminal is justified when you protect society with it, like the police gunning down a murderer running away/waving a gun at them. When you already got the criminal behind bars, he's not going anywhere ever again, so why kill him?

But if someone raped/killed a family member, I don't think I'd be satisfied with them dying. I would want them to be tortured, then killed. So if we go by what gives the most satisfaction and closure to the victims, go torture and kill murderers?