Chavez addresses UN General Assembly

[Aenama]

No he is not.

 

[kirovman]

you're quite well-off/rich aren't you rjmc?

What makes you say that? I don't think he's ever said that before.

 

[<RJMC>]

why they allways come whit the "omfg you r rich isnt?"

how I can proof I am not rich

"omfg you hav a computer!" hell who dosent?

 

[rAdIOhEaD]

*rAdIOhEaD walks into the thread*
*rAdIOhEaD reads every post*
*rAdIOhEaD finds revolutionist-wannabe tenagers that that live in first world countries to be very funny and amusing*
*rAdIOhEaD leaves the thread with a smile in his face and thinking that the old saying "ignorance is bliss" is very true*

 

[kirovman]

why they allways come whit the "omfg you r rich isnt?"

how I can proof I am not rich

"omfg you hav a computer!" hell who dosent?

Well, in Libya, which everyone probably thinks is really poor, they're giving every school student a laptop.

 

[Ome_Vince]

Anti Chavez March:

Pro Chavez March:

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1331


I personally don't see anything majorly wrong with Chavez. I mean, come on, how can you not love a guy who "promotes his vision of democratic socialism, Latin American integration, and anti-imperialism. He is also an ardent critic of neoliberal globalization and U.S. foreign policy." (Wikipedia) and who has the people on his side?

Through his Bolivarian Missions, he has helped with construction of thousands of free medical clinics for the poor, the institution of educational campaigns that have reportedly made more than one million adult Venezuelans literate, and the enactment of food and housing subsidies. There have been marked improvements in the infant mortality rate between 1998 and 2006.

His whole domestic policy ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Chávez#Domestic_policy ) is geared towards providing healthcare, education, and jobs. I don't see anything wrong with this.




What makes Chavez's speech so important that it needed to be addressed to the UN General Assembly was what he said:




http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/2006_Chávez_speech_at_the_UN


Chavez is standing up for the nations the US is oppressing. Chavez is saying what others can't or won't: to get troops out of these countries and let them govern themselves, like they've been doing for thousands of years prior. Chavez is rightfully saying that this UN, a UN where two-thirds of its members can vote AGAINST a motion, and have the motion pass, is in no way democratic.

Chavez is saying that the people of the world have had enough, that people across the world are realising that they hold nothing in common with imperialist governments, and that they are rising up and refusing to be trodden over.

And I think that's important enought to take to the entire world.

So you see dont think its a "biggy" that hes censoring Television (if he's so popular and "right" why have to incorporate "Fascist" tactics? come on), his history is also "interesting" -> he first tried to take power through a coupe, he's been accused of rigging referendums and the list goes on.

Disgarding how popular or unpopular he is, the alarming issue is that those who oppose Chavez are being silenced, their TV is beind censored etc. This in no way can be described as good. Period. If he's so "good" for his country and world, he would not have to implement such tactics.

O, and yeah it seems venuzuelan people are split in support/protest. There are several coupe attempts made, (in which the US embassy helped Chavez by warning him several times).

Imo, what you can see, especially since the dubious elections and referendums he's had, is that he's trying to increase his popularity through being defiant against several world issues.
Now where have we seen this before... hmmm.
In order to save the Argentinian government, they played on the nationalism, it failed miserably due to losing the war.
This looks like a "similar" act of "F U western countries look how defiant and reforming i am"..

I personally think Chavez is "acting up" in order to become an icon of "resistance" against a public (and international) feeling of US foreign politicy and so called "oppression".

Now whether or not he's right or wrong is a different story, but i think he's simply trying to strenghten his position with this, just as the Iranian president, and some could say even Bush have had similar loud-mouthed ways of strenghtening themselves in a crumbling homefront support.

As i mentioned before i dont think he's "evil" or "a madman" but i do think his administration is wrong in several ways, especially the censoring, blocking any negative media looks like a one-way ticket to a dictatorship. But we'll see

 

[DaMaN]

So you see dont think its a "biggy" that hes censoring Television (if he's so popular and "right" why have to incorporate "Fascist" tactics? come on), his history is also "interesting" -> he first tried to take power through a coupe, he's been accused of rigging referendums and the list goes on.

According to http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0304-20.htm , this is a myth:

Another basic myth is that Chávez has limited freedom of speech and eroded civil rights. Yet whenever I go to Venezuela, I hear the private media spend enormous amounts of time criticizing the President, something I wish our media would do a little more of. Access to community media production – both radio and television – has vastly expanded in recent years. And no serious human rights group has alleged that civil rights have eroded under the Chávez administration, and civil rights compare favorably to past governments and to countries in the region.

As for the coupes, he indeed tried to take power through a coupe:

When military officers, including Hugo Chavez, saw the conditions in which Venezuela's poor lived, they became disenchanted with the country's system of government. Corruption was blamed for the problem. This feeling was being felt by the nation's citizens as well. By 1990, the government had ceased attempts to satisfy them. People began searching for alternatives to the corruption of Venezuelan democracy. Riots erupted in 1989 to protest government corruption.

When the coupe failed, he immediately gave himself up to the government and called for a cease-fire for all remaining rebels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_coup_attempts_of_1992

Coupes happen all the time, indeed, they are a large part of political tradition. Caesur was the victim of a coup, Napoleon got into power from a coup, and plenty more have happened throughout history.

In particular, the American CIA and Soviet KGB developed a reputation for supporting coups in states such as Chile and Afghanistan, respectively. Such actions are substitutes for direct aggression which might cause great discontent in the aggressor state's population. The governments of France and Great Britain have, among others, engineered coups as well.


As for the poll rigging, numerous organizations have stated that the polls were not rigged, including the Organization of American States and the Carter Center.

O, and yeah it seems venuzuelan people are split in support/protest. There are several coupe attempts made, (in which the US embassy helped Chavez by warning him several times).

I'm only aware of one coup attempt made against Chavez, which, while the US embassy helped Chavez by warning him several times, was also supported and orchestrated by the US itself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_coup_attempt_of_2002

Imo, what you can see, especially since the dubious elections and referendums he's had, is that he's trying to increase his popularity through being defiant against several world issues.
Now where have we seen this before... hmmm.
In order to save the Argentinian government, they played on the nationalism, it failed miserably due to losing the war.
This looks like a "similar" act of "F U western countries look how defiant and reforming i am"..

I personally think Chavez is "acting up" in order to become an icon of "resistance" against a public (and international) feeling of US foreign politicy and so called "oppression".

Now whether or not he's right or wrong is a different story, but i think he's simply trying to strenghten his position with this, just as the Iranian president, and some could say even Bush have had similar loud-mouthed ways of strenghtening themselves in a crumbling homefront support.

As i mentioned before i dont think he's "evil" or "a madman" but i do think his administration is wrong in several ways, especially the censoring, blocking any negative media looks like a one-way ticket to a dictatorship. But we'll see

Chavez IS drumming up lots of support being an icon of resistance against US foreign policy and oppression. However, I disagree that this is just a political tactic, and I'm not seeing the "crumbling homefront support". In my opinion, it looks much more likely that Chavez is combating an increasing amount of US intervention in Venezuala:

According to the report, since 2002 the Bush administration has embarked upon a new strategy each year to oust and/or destabilize the democratically elected government of Venezuela. In 2002, the US Administration supported a military coup that briefly ousted the democratic government; in 2003 it used an economic sabotage campaign; in 2004 it supported the political strategy of the referendum; and in 2005 it waged a diplomatic battle.

These comments are not new, but follow a pattern of increasing hostility and verbal aggression towards Venezuela. Rice’s concerns are allegedly based on her argument that Chávez isn’t a democrat, despite having won three elections.

But according to the 2005 survey by Latinobarómetro, an independent polling firm, Venezuelans are more likely than citizens of 18 other Latin American nations polled to describe their government as “totally democratic.” And Venezuelans have the second highest level of satisfaction with the way their own democracy functions. In addition, recent independent polls show President Chávez holding an approval rating of over 70% - a number that our president could only dream of. While there are policies in Venezuela, like in all countries, that people could certainly question or disagree with, the administration’s aggressive behavior towards Venezuela is totally unreasonable and violates that nation’s sovereignty. So why is the Bush administration so antagonistic towards Venezuela’s democratically elected government?
To answer this question, I recommend a report entitled “US Intervention in Venezuela, A Clear and Present Danger,” written recently by Venezuela expert Deborah James of Global Exchange and available on our website at http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/venezuela/USVZrelations.pdf. The report tells a shocking tale of US intervention in Venezuela’s democratic process, examines a series of myths about Venezuela, and offers an explanation of the real concerns underlying the Bush administration’s antagonism towards Venezuela

Excerpts from: http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0304-20.htm

The report mentioned in the experpts is avaliable here in PDF form: http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/venezuela/USVZrelations.pdf

---

Last month I attended a conference where a woman from the Venezualan Embassy here in Canada spoke. She spoke about the Bolivarian Process, and how Venezuala is moving towards Civil and Human rights, and how they are protected in the constitution. The new Venezualen constitution is printed in a small book form and handed out to everyone, so they know exactly what their rights are (how many people in the US or Canada have actually read their constitutions? Let alone keep a copy of it on them). This is helping to make a more politically aware population.
She spoke of their goals of lowering poverty from 80% to 50% by 2015, and providing new forms of employment. They plan to do this by perpetuating old programs (which have raised literacy to 93%), promoting free education, promoting literacy, and promoting healthcare.
She spoke of the gains Venezuala has made, such as acheiving a 93% literacy rate across the country, and other gains, such as having FREE primary, secondary, and post-secondary education, and universal access to education, training, jobs, food, housing, and etc.
An interesting thing to note is that all of the members of the Venezualan Consolate in Canada are women.

Venezuala is also working closely with other countries, such as Cuba.
Currently,
- 14,000 Cuban doctors give free medical treatment in Venezuala
- 3,000 Venezualan students are currently studying medicine for free in Cuba. Three classes have already graduated since Latin American School of Medicine's (ELAM) founding in 1998
- 13,000 Venezualans have received free sight-recovering eye surgery in Cuba, through "Operation Miracle"
- Under the ALBA, Cuba, Venezuala and Bolivia plan to train 200,000 Latin american and Caribbean doctors over the next ten years.

Venezuala has also enacted a new program to provide 40% discounts on 49 million gallons of heating fuel for poor people in Massachusetts, Maine, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, New York, Delaware, and soon Vermont and Connecticut



That is why I support Venezuala's current government.

 

[Aenama]

Then please move there.

 

[Ome_Vince]

According to http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0304-20.htm , this is a myth:

Uhm, according to Medea Benjamin? According to this source:

In December 2004, a law giving the government control over the content of radio and television programs went into effect, with Chavez claiming that the "Venezuelan people have begun to free themselves from. . .the dictatorship of the private media."

This is but one example of how TV is being manipulated. Especially after the 2004 recall-vote alot of TV manipulation went into effect.
I watch the free TV broadcast owned by the government daily since i'm staying with Venuzuelans atm, and its worse than Fox.. On top of that, the opposing channels all cost money => all the poor see pro Chavez TV, and only the interested rich can reach other channels...

As for the coupes, he indeed tried to take power through a coupe:

When the coupe failed, he immediately gave himself up to the government and called for a cease-fire for all remaining rebels.
Coupes happen all the time, indeed, they are a large part of political tradition. Caesur was the victim of a coup, Napoleon got into power from a coup, and plenty more have happened throughout history.

That makes it ok? Because when it failed he surrendered? And because coupes arent uncommon throughout history this is "fine" too?

In particular, the American CIA and Soviet KGB developed a reputation for supporting coups in states such as Chile and Afghanistan, respectively. Such actions are substitutes for direct aggression which might cause great discontent in the aggressor state's population. The governments of France and Great Britain have, among others, engineered coups as well.

I'm not interested in what the KGB or CIA did in the past, but rather how "Great" chavez's adminstration is.

As for the poll rigging, numerous organizations have stated that the polls were not rigged, including the Organization of American States and the Carter Center.

Carter Center about the 2004 poll:

Subsequently, however, the Carter Center admitted Taylor had "found a mistake in one of the models of his analysis which lowered the predicted number of tied machines, but which still found the actual result to lie within statistical possibility

"to lie within statistical possibility"? Meaning they're not 100% sure but its "possible" and "likely to not be fraud"... right...

I'm only aware of one coup attempt made against Chavez, which, while the US embassy helped Chavez by warning him several times, was also supported and orchestrated by the US itself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_coup_attempt_of_2002

According to... only Chavez himself.... :angel:

According to Wiki the US involvement i can find:

According to Democracy Now!, CIA documents indicate that the Bush administration knew about a plot weeks before the April 2002 military coup. They cite a document dated 6 April 2002, which says: "dissident military factions...are stepping up efforts to organize a coup against President Chávez, possibly as early as this month." According to William Brownfield, ambassador to Venezuela, the U.S. embassy in Venezuela warned Chávez about a coup plot in April 2002.

Chavez IS drumming up lots of support being an icon of resistance against US foreign policy and oppression. However, I disagree that this is just a political tactic, and I'm not seeing the "crumbling homefront support". In my opinion, it looks much more likely that Chavez is combating an increasing amount of US intervention in Venezuala:

Protests, referendums, coupe, media corruption, all add up to how well "supported" this guy is by his homefront...

Millions signing a petition to demand early election doesnt actually support the claim of a "strong home front" and "increasing support".

Last month I attended a conference where a woman from the Venezualan Embassy here in Canada spoke. She spoke about the Bolivarian Process, and how Venezuala is moving towards Civil and Human rights, and how they are protected in the constitution. The new Venezualen constitution is printed in a small book form and handed out to everyone, so they know exactly what their rights are (how many people in the US or Canada have actually read their constitutions? Let alone keep a copy of it on them). This is helping to make a more politically aware population.
She spoke of their goals of lowering poverty from 80% to 50% by 2015, and providing new forms of employment. They plan to do this by perpetuating old programs (which have raised literacy to 93%), promoting free education, promoting literacy, and promoting healthcare.
She spoke of the gains Venezuala has made, such as acheiving a 93% literacy rate across the country, and other gains, such as having FREE primary, secondary, and post-secondary education, and universal access to education, training, jobs, food, housing, and etc.
An interesting thing to note is that all of the members of the Venezualan Consolate in Canada are women.

Venezuala is also working closely with other countries, such as Cuba.
Currently,
- 14,000 Cuban doctors give free medical treatment in Venezuala
- 3,000 Venezualan students are currently studying medicine for free in Cuba. Three classes have already graduated since Latin American School of Medicine's (ELAM) founding in 1998
- 13,000 Venezualans have received free sight-recovering eye surgery in Cuba, through "Operation Miracle"
- Under the ALBA, Cuba, Venezuala and Bolivia plan to train 200,000 Latin american and Caribbean doctors over the next ten years.

Venezuala has also enacted a new program to provide 40% discounts on 49 million gallons of heating fuel for poor people in Massachusetts, Maine, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, New York, Delaware, and soon Vermont and Connecticut

Yes, that all sounds fine on paper, but THIS is reality....

Hey, at least its free aye.

It also still doesnt justify corruption and the controlled media which is what i was objecting.

An interesting story i was told by the Venuzuelan i stay with: The local drug dealers were considered the heroes of the neighbourhood, why? They build playgrounds, they paid for schooling they did all sorts of community work.
Thats what the population sees. The same goes with alot of terror and maffia organisations; they raise schools, provide free education to gain support, as illiterate people all fall for this, and in the meentime execute their crimes.

All the poor population hears, and we tend to see in these numbers is "Free education woa!" -> whats the quality of this? and at what cost? Judging from the reports, pictures, and stories i hear from Venuzuelans themselves, animals get treated better here, than people in Cuba or Venuzuela..

Though, all in all, i do see your point, and i'd like to stress i'm not saying he's "evil" or a "maniak" like alot of Bush-fans like to state, but i just dont support this kind of behavior. I dont support it from the Bush administration, not from Iran, and not from Venuzuelan administration.
Whether he's left or right doesnt matter to me -> corruption is corruption and has no "right" or "left" label on it.

Btw, I'm looking forward to the next elections in Venuzuela, i think this one is going to be interesting since if i remember correctly, his 2 allready lengthened 6 year periods are finished right?..
I'm interested to hear what do you think will happen "or not"?

 

[Sulkdodds]

Then please move there.

Shut up.

(There, that's a post that is as obnoxious, pedestrian and pointless as your own.)

 

[Aenama]

I'm just sick of hearing all this bitching,if its so bad here ,and so good down there,Then just move there.

 

[Solaris]

I'm just sick of hearing all this bitching,if its so bad here ,and so good down there,Then just move there.

Tell me, has anyone here suggested that your average Venezuelan has a better standard of living than your average American? No, your over-hyping what people are saying. If you like America so much, why don't you give all your money to the government?
It's stupid 4year old logic that has no place here.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Why would someone who likes living in America give all their money to the government? That doesn't even make sense.

 

[Solaris]

Why would someone who likes living in America give all their money to the government? That doesn't even make sense.

My point exactly?
Why would someone who's reasonably well off and has a problem with American foreign policy move to a shack in Venezuela just because they agree with Hugo Chavez on some issues?

 

[gick]

Then please move there.

*Smashes head on desk in despair*

 

[Ome_Vince]

Why does everything have to be a pissing contest between nations, bleh

 

[Sulkdodds]

/me pisses on Vince's nation

 

[kirovman]

Countries?

More like ****ries.

 

[Aenama]

*Smashes head on desk in despair*

what's wrong Mr.Anarchist?

 

[gick]

what's wrong Mr.Anarchist?

Your idiotic response to DaMan's defence of Chavez. Its the kind of response you get from mentally retarded nationalistic ****wits who cant seem to understand that it is possible to defend a country or its leaders without wanting to move there.

 

[Sulkdodds]

It's also really really useless.

The equivalent of responding to a lengthy argument with "yeah...well...your face!"

 

[Tr0n]

Damn noobs.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Your face.

 

[Tr0n]

Sulky, you're sleeping on the couch tonight.

 

[kirovman]

If you really your face Sulkdodds, why don't you just move there?

 

[Ome_Vince]

/me pisses on Vince's nation

aaahhh, thanks for the golden shower :angel:
/me returns the favor :cheers:

 

[DaMaN]

Hey Vince, sorry it took so long to get back to you.

That makes it ok? Because when it failed he surrendered? And because coupes arent uncommon throughout history this is "fine" too?

I was attempting to show that by surrendering, he spared a lot of people's lives.

Regardless, overthrowing a government in a coup isn't always a bad thing.

I'm not interested in what the KGB or CIA did in the past, but rather how "Great" chavez's adminstration is.

How "great" chavez's administration is is directly affected by the amount of subversion put upon it by other countries.

Carter Center about the 2004 poll:


"to lie within statistical possibility"? Meaning they're not 100% sure but its "possible" and "likely to not be fraud"... right...

This doesn't seem any different from any other election where there is not 100% certainty. They say that it's "likely not to be fraud", and I'll take it.

Yes, that all sounds fine on paper, but THIS is reality....

Hey, at least its free aye.

While I'm not questioning the validity of that site, I personally find it extremely skewed.

It also still doesnt justify corruption and the controlled media which is what i was objecting.

No, it doesn't. But I feel that supporting Chavez because of what he has done is more important. (See below)

An interesting story i was told by the Venuzuelan i stay with: The local drug dealers were considered the heroes of the neighbourhood, why? They build playgrounds, they paid for schooling they did all sorts of community work.
Thats what the population sees. The same goes with alot of terror and maffia organisations; they raise schools, provide free education to gain support, as illiterate people all fall for this, and in the meentime execute their crimes.

Only 7% of the population is illiterate. The government is the one funding the free education and healthcare. I won't dispute that drug dealers are building playgrounds and etc to garner public support. Things like this happen everywhere. It doesn't make it OK, it makes it tragic. (Just look at government-run charities that support aids-run countries in Africa. The same governments are the ones running the sweatshops and mining their resources for pennies. But that's another issue.)

The people also see that their government has provided them each with a pocket-sized copy of their constitution. People see that they can recall the president and have a re-vote before his term is up. No other country in the world has that. Free healthcare and education? The only other "third-world" countries with that is Cuba.

All the poor population hears, and we tend to see in these numbers is "Free education woa!" -> whats the quality of this? and at what cost? Judging from the reports, pictures, and stories i hear from Venuzuelans themselves, animals get treated better here, than people in Cuba or Venuzuela..

Venezuala is a third-world country. And for a third-world country to be offering free education and free healthcare (something we don't have in a first-world country), it's treating it's people pretty damn well.

Though, all in all, i do see your point, and i'd like to stress i'm not saying he's "evil" or a "maniak" like alot of Bush-fans like to state, but i just dont support this kind of behavior. I dont support it from the Bush administration, not from Iran, and not from Venuzuelan administration.
Whether he's left or right doesnt matter to me -> corruption is corruption and has no "right" or "left" label on it.

While I agree that corruption is bad regardless of the state, I still support Chavez because the majority of his other actions tend to suggest that he is working for the people, and only for the people. I don't agree with certain policies of Chavez, but I do agree with quite a number of them. Therefore, I support Chavez.

Allow me to explain:

This is very similar to the struggle of the Taliban and Hezballah. While both organizations have some pretty horrendous policies (such as those towards women), they are the ones who are fighting to get foreign occupiers who are killing hundreds of thousands of people out of their countries. Since I abhor what US/Canada are doing in Afghanistan, and what Israel is doing in Lebanon, I am therefore supportive of the Taliban and of Hezballah in their current struggle. While I don't agree with much of what they stand for, I find that if I oppose what these oppressor countries are doing, then supporting these organisations now is helping to oppose these countries.

Let me put it this way: If I wait to support the perfect leader or perfect organization, I will be waiting for a very, very long time.

In the world today, I see that there are two primary forces I am concerned with: those of oppressed nations and those of oppressor nations. Right now, certain oppressor nations (US/Canada/UK), are wanting footholds in certain places (Middle East/Latin America). To achieve these footholds, they are using military and economic might. While gaining these footholds, they are causing the suffering and deaths of millions of people. I find that this is wrong. Therefore, I oppose what these oppressor nations are doing. But I am only one person. To make a difference, I must band together with other people. Perhaps I don't agree with them or what they usually do, but we both agree that what these oppressor countries are doing is wrong. If we allow what we disagree with to split us, we become less powerful and less influential. If we both support the same cause, it makes us a more powerful force. Regardless if we band together or not, the oppressor nations have the same strength. Since one person or one group does not have enough strength to take on these nations alone, if they are left un-united the oppressor nations will win. Banding together will add to the possibility of winning the right of nations to determine their own course without other nations interference.

Canada out of Afghanistan, US/UK out of Iraq, Israel out of Lebanon, and US Hands Off Cuba and Venezuala.

But that's how I see things.

Btw, I'm looking forward to the next elections in Venuzuela, i think this one is going to be interesting since if i remember correctly, his 2 allready lengthened 6 year periods are finished right?..
I'm interested to hear what do you think will happen "or not"?

This one will be interesting indeed. I personally think that Chavez will get elected, although, after speaking with the representative from the Venezualan consulate, one possibility she predicts is that the numberous opponent candidates will one by one drop out, leaving Chavez as the sole candidate and thus voiding the elections. Which, in turn, would drag them on and on, possibly providing more time to sway the people (which is a pretty low tactic if you ask me).

But if the elections go through, my bet's on Chavez. Though if he doesn't get elected I'll be perfectly willing to eat my words.

 

[kirovman]

Interestingly, Saddam Hussein created a free healthcare system and a mandatory literacy programme and Iraq was one of the most developed Middle Eastern countries. Until the sanctions took hold.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/iraq/war/player1.html

 

[Ome_Vince]

Hey Vince, sorry it took so long to get back to you.


I was attempting to show that by surrendering, he spared a lot of people's lives.

Regardless, overthrowing a government in a coup isn't always a bad thing.


How "great" chavez's administration is is directly affected by the amount of subversion put upon it by other countries.


This doesn't seem any different from any other election where there is not 100% certainty. They say that it's "likely not to be fraud", and I'll take it.


While I'm not questioning the validity of that site, I personally find it extremely skewed.


No, it doesn't. But I feel that supporting Chavez because of what he has done is more important. (See below)


Only 7% of the population is illiterate. The government is the one funding the free education and healthcare. I won't dispute that drug dealers are building playgrounds and etc to garner public support. Things like this happen everywhere. It doesn't make it OK, it makes it tragic. (Just look at government-run charities that support aids-run countries in Africa. The same governments are the ones running the sweatshops and mining their resources for pennies. But that's another issue.)

The people also see that their government has provided them each with a pocket-sized copy of their constitution. People see that they can recall the president and have a re-vote before his term is up. No other country in the world has that. Free healthcare and education? The only other "third-world" countries with that is Cuba.


Venezuala is a third-world country. And for a third-world country to be offering free education and free healthcare (something we don't have in a first-world country), it's treating it's people pretty damn well.


While I agree that corruption is bad regardless of the state, I still support Chavez because the majority of his other actions tend to suggest that he is working for the people, and only for the people. I don't agree with certain policies of Chavez, but I do agree with quite a number of them. Therefore, I support Chavez.

Allow me to explain:

This is very similar to the struggle of the Taliban and Hezballah. While both organizations have some pretty horrendous policies (such as those towards women), they are the ones who are fighting to get foreign occupiers who are killing hundreds of thousands of people out of their countries. Since I abhor what US/Canada are doing in Afghanistan, and what Israel is doing in Lebanon, I am therefore supportive of the Taliban and of Hezballah in their current struggle. While I don't agree with much of what they stand for, I find that if I oppose what these oppressor countries are doing, then supporting these organisations now is helping to oppose these countries.

Let me put it this way: If I wait to support the perfect leader or perfect organization, I will be waiting for a very, very long time.

In the world today, I see that there are two primary forces I am concerned with: those of oppressed nations and those of oppressor nations. Right now, certain oppressor nations (US/Canada/UK), are wanting footholds in certain places (Middle East/Latin America). To achieve these footholds, they are using military and economic might. While gaining these footholds, they are causing the suffering and deaths of millions of people. I find that this is wrong. Therefore, I oppose what these oppressor nations are doing. But I am only one person. To make a difference, I must band together with other people. Perhaps I don't agree with them or what they usually do, but we both agree that what these oppressor countries are doing is wrong. If we allow what we disagree with to split us, we become less powerful and less influential. If we both support the same cause, it makes us a more powerful force. Regardless if we band together or not, the oppressor nations have the same strength. Since one person or one group does not have enough strength to take on these nations alone, if they are left un-united the oppressor nations will win. Banding together will add to the possibility of winning the right of nations to determine their own course without other nations interference.

Canada out of Afghanistan, US/UK out of Iraq, Israel out of Lebanon, and US Hands Off Cuba and Venezuala.

But that's how I see things.


This one will be interesting indeed. I personally think that Chavez will get elected, although, after speaking with the representative from the Venezualan consulate, one possibility she predicts is that the numberous opponent candidates will one by one drop out, leaving Chavez as the sole candidate and thus voiding the elections. Which, in turn, would drag them on and on, possibly providing more time to sway the people (which is a pretty low tactic if you ask me).

But if the elections go through, my bet's on Chavez. Though if he doesn't get elected I'll be perfectly willing to eat my words.

Good post, though i disagree with the Hezbollah/Taliban comparisson, and i think supporting any of these organisations just to oppose others is not such a good idea.
This isnt the right place for that discussion though, but i can see your point.
I personally dont see any reason to support Chavez's current administration. Although his goals might be "for the people" his methods and alot of his ways are not "clean".
I guess its more a "the ends justify the needs" discussion.
I dont believe in that statement, simply because i think the side-effects scale up larger than initially forseen.
Good post though.

 

[<RJMC>]

you people really should shut the hell up

"omfg the internets told me chavez is the best person ever"

I will not post the same thing again cuz they are all idiots that really dont know shit,and problaby will reply me whit a "proof that I am wrong" whit some internet article

seriously you think you are all intelligent and smart cuz "I suport it blablabla" you just hav fall in theyr propaganda trap,like flyes to the shit

thats all I will say

 

[DaMaN]

Good post, though i disagree with the Hezbollah/Taliban comparisson, and i think supporting any of these organisations just to oppose others is not such a good idea.
This isnt the right place for that discussion though, but i can see your point.
I personally dont see any reason to support Chavez's current administration. Although his goals might be "for the people" his methods and alot of his ways are not "clean".
I guess its more a "the ends justify the needs" discussion.
I dont believe in that statement, simply because i think the side-effects scale up larger than initially forseen.
Good post though.

Thanks Vince! I agree with you that I would rather support "cleaner" administrations/organisations, but in the world right now it seems like all of them are dirty and filthy. While the ends may not justify the needs and the side-effects will probably scale up larger than initially forseen, I feel that the desired ends will not come to pass in the near future without these needs, and if these ends do not come to pass, it will be a bleak(er) world.

However, as you pointed out, this is not the place for this discussion.

I'd like to thank you for a stimulating and enjoyable discussion! Oh, and good post too!