China and Taiwan

[seinfeldrules]

It seems this could get out of control.

A leading Communist party official said force would be a last resort if reunification efforts fail.

China has considered Taiwan a renegade province since communist forces drove nationalists from the mainland in 1949, and has repeatedly threatened to use military power against the island if it declares independence.

"Using non-peaceful means to stop secession in defense of our sovereignty and territorial integrity would be our last resort when all our efforts for a peaceful reunification should prove futile," Wang Zhaoguo, vice-chairman of the National People's Congress (NPC), told the session.

Taiwan issued a strong protest against the proposed law, saying it ignores the island's sovereignty and raises tension in the region by giving the Chinese military a blank check to attack. (Full story)

The bill comes under the banner of the "One-China Policy" and "draws a legislative line in the sand," CNN's Beijing Correspondent Stan Grant said.

"The key thing here is they are stressing, above all, China's sovereignty," Grant said.

The new legislation is designed to put a legal framework behind those threats, analysts have said.

 

[Calanen]

They are currently building amphibious landing craft in mass numbers.

My own view is that the Taiwanese will cave and reach an agreement where they give up sovereignty but make it look like they really agreed voluntarily. I believe they have set a deadline of 2010? If they are going nto do anything, I believe that it will either be sabre rattling til after the Olympics. Its a bit hard to have an Olympics if most of the world boycotts it because you went in and massacred the Taiwanese. So my hit prediction, is, sabre rattling hoping Taiwan caves, and if they do not, invasion in 2009.

 

[Eg.]

i hope taiwan stays as is. most of my comp parts come from there, i dont want to have to by commie parts later

also, hong kong didnt really like their turnover. big changes like these never go well. hopefully america will use its wight to keep taiwan independent

 

[Sieg]

i hope taiwan stays as is. most of my comp parts come from there, i dont want to have to by commie parts later

My life is in danger here,I live in Shenzhen,which is much too close......

 

[The Monkey]

If Taiwan was attacked, no onw would be on its side, The US, Europe, they all will declare themselves neutral. They won't risk their relations with China.

 

[kirovman]

Yeah, unfortunately Taiwan has almost no hope since most countries gave up relations with them in the 1970s, to get relations with China.

Taiwan should have called themselves Taiwan while they were in the UN, rather than stubbornly calling themselves China ("one day we will take back the mainland from the communists"- very unlikely now).

China seems determined to win back Taiwan through diplomacy rather than force - so they can use it to boost their image.
I don't think China will use force unless they see an immediate danger of loosing Taiwan.
They did say however they would risk all relations and the olympics games if they needed to get Taiwan back.

As for average chinese people, they generally say "Taiwan must come back" and "they are are our family, we cannot let them go"
Just try arguing with chinese people on chinadaily.com.cn for example, they will not shift their opinion on Taiwan.

My life is in danger here,I live in Shenzhen,which is much too close......

Nah, I don't think you're in any threat, it's a big city, and Taiwan doesn't have that many arms.
And you're in one of the most capitalistic cities in the world.


Oh BTW everyone, it's China Week on the BBC.

They're talking about Chinese package holidays to the UK starting this summer at the minute, and how China has kept inflation in the UK low in recent times. Explains Gordon Brown's recent trip to China, he wanted to see the force that is driving one of his relection policies.

 

[kmack]

If Taiwan was attacked, no onw would be on its side, The US, Europe, they all will declare themselves neutral. They won't risk their relations with China.

I don't think it is relations so much as we would lose the war as we would have to invade china.

 

[kirovman]

I don't think it is relations so much as we would lose the war as we would have to invade china.

Funny how our leaders refuse to meet Chen Shui-Bian (Clinton met him recently, but he's ex-pres) though (and the Dalai Lama). It'd be a bit odd to put your ass on the line for someone you'd frozen or killed relations with.

If democracy really mattered to the West (rather than this superficial "we fight valiently for democracy and freedom - by fighting countries who have no chance against us" attitude, we would support Taiwan to the bitter end, no question.

Nah, we're all just selffish and greedy really, we want to take advantage of Chinese cheap labour and cheap goods, even if it means getting intimate with a communist government.

 

[The Monkey]

Funny how our leaders refuse to meet Chen Shui-Bian (Clinton met him recently, but he's ex-pres) though (and the Dalai Lama). It'd be a bit odd to put your ass on the line for someone you'd frozen or killed relations with.

If democracy really mattered to the West (rather than this superficial "we fight valiently for democracy and freedom - by fighting countries who have no chance against us" attitude, we would support Taiwan to the bitter end, no question.

Nah, we're all just selffish and greedy really, we want to take advantage of Chinese cheap labour and cheap goods, even if it means getting intimate with a communist government.

China's goverment is not communist, it supports free marketing. But you're wight, the west's companies will do anything to get hold of that cheap labour.

 

[kirovman]

China's goverment is not communist, it supports free marketing. But you're wight, the west's companies will do anything to get hold of that cheap labour.

Yeah, I know, communist only by party name.

They did a capitalist experiment back in the 80s, and it was sucessful, now it's full steam ahead in development.

But the communist party officials when asked say:

"some people get rich first...then they will drag up everyone else...eventually everyone will be rich" heard that on tv yesterday.

 

[Gray Fox]

Hey kirovman, whst do they say when asked about Tibet on china daily.

 

[KoreBolteR]

yeah, no messing with China at the moment.
millions and millions of troops, massive military power, economy on the Rise!!.

Taiwan are ruined if they go against China.

 

[kirovman]

Hey kirovman, whst do they say when asked about Tibet on china daily.

Dunno, haven't tried that one yet.

Probably get your post deleted.

Speaking to chinese people, they say Tibet needed to be liberated because it's populace were living in poverty while the Lamas were rich, or something along those lines.

They reckon they have brought prosperity, education and healthcare to the region.

Oh and I've heard many a story of a German or Spanish teacher in Europe upsetting chinese girls by saying "Why do you have Tibet? You bastards!" making them cry.

Something like that anyway :rolling:

Here's some opinions, from the BBC website:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4307813.stm

A lot of western people don't like China's communist government, but don't forget: this government was chosen by its own people through supporting its troop during civil war. It was Chinese people's will to have such a government. People from other countries have no right to tell the Chinese what to do.

Having given free reign to entrepreneurs and capitalists, does the Chinese Communist Party still have any ideological rationale for its existence? Has it not become akin to a board of directors of a super-corporation?

I do not agree with everything the Communist government does, but they have my support because they are the ones that make every Chinese person around the world stand proud with dignity. Look at how corrupt the so-call democratic Taiwanese government is, and they are nothing but a muppet of the Americans.

Lol, Muppet. I think he meant puppet.

3000 years a mercantile people; less than 100 years Communist. Which trait is more deeply ingrained in the Chinese character?

What is peoples obsession with democracy? Just because China has a different system doesn't mean it's wrong. Democracy has plenty of flaws that people seem to forget.

etc etc

 

[Gray Fox]

yeah, no messing with China at the moment.
millions and millions of troops, massive military power, economy on the Rise!!.

Taiwan are ruined if they go against China.

Those millions of troops mean nothing, their equipment is outdated and they need a lot those troops to keep the country under their thumb, remember the US spends 590 billion on defense every year, the rest of the wolrd put together 500 billion.

 

[KoreBolteR]

Those millions of troops mean nothing, their equipment is outdated and they need a lot those troops to keep the country under their thumb, remember the US spends 590 billion on defense every year, the rest of the wolrd put together 500 billion.

i suppose, but didnt someone say on these threads a couple of days ago, that china could have a very good economy in the future or something like that?

as good/better than the americans?

 

[kmack]

Funny how our leaders refuse to meet Chen Shui-Bian (Clinton met him recently, but he's ex-pres) though (and the Dalai Lama). It'd be a bit odd to put your ass on the line for someone you'd frozen or killed relations with.

If democracy really mattered to the West (rather than this superficial "we fight valiently for democracy and freedom - by fighting countries who have no chance against us" attitude, we would support Taiwan to the bitter end, no question.

Nah, we're all just selffish and greedy really, we want to take advantage of Chinese cheap labour and cheap goods, even if it means getting intimate with a communist government.

Just a fact of life :| , nice observation

 

[seinfeldrules]

If democracy really mattered to the West (rather than this superficial "we fight valiently for democracy and freedom - by fighting countries who have no chance against us" attitude, we would support Taiwan to the bitter end, no question.

We do support Taiwan... I guarantee if China tried anything against Taiwan we would defend them. As would Japan. This whole situation started when the US, Japan, and Taiwan wanted to form some kind of alliance. I hardly see that as a sign of turning our backs on them.

Furthermore, I really dont see why we would need to invade Taiwan, nor do I see how we would lose. We have a superior navy and airforce, the two key components in a battle for Taiwan.

 

[The Monkey]

We do support Taiwan... I guarantee if China tried anything against Taiwan we would defend them. As would Japan. This whole situation started when the US, Japan, and Taiwan wanted to form some kind of alliance. I hardly see that as a sign of turning our backs on them.

Furthermore, I really dont see why we would need to invade Taiwan, nor do I see how we would lose. We have a superior navy and airforce, the two key components in a battle for Taiwan.

Oh no, you would never risk a war with China. That would lead to WWIII, and I'm sure Bush doesn't want that on his shoulders. And Japan has no army to speak of.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Oh no, you would never risk a war with China.

China would be the one risking a war with us, not vice versa.

That would lead to WWIII,

How is China vs. all a WWIII?

This is a very similar situation to NK invading SK. We have been close allies with Taiwan (Chang Kai Shek) since WWII and even before.

 

[Razor]

We do support Taiwan... I guarantee if China tried anything against Taiwan we would defend them. As would Japan. This whole situation started when the US, Japan, and Taiwan wanted to form some kind of alliance. I hardly see that as a sign of turning our backs on them.

Furthermore, I really dont see why we would need to invade Taiwan, nor do I see how we would lose. We have a superior navy and airforce, the two key components in a battle for Taiwan.

The Chinese have a well equipped airforce, they also have the biggest airforce in the world and their navy isn't too shabby either.

 

[seinfeldrules]

The Chinese have a well equipped airforce, they also have the biggest airforce in the world and their navy isn't too shabby either.

Biggest and best are two totally seperate issues. America would control the skies and the sea hands down.

 

[The Monkey]

China would be the one risking a war with us, not vice versa.


How is China vs. all a WWIII?

This is a very similar situation to NK invading SK. We have been close allies with Taiwan (Chang Kai Shek) since WWII and even before.

You would be defending Taiwan and therefore you would be risking a war.

If you defended Taiwan China would most likely decleare war on you. And you with the two biggest military powers in the world fighting eachother, it would surely lead to a new world war. Not to mention that both of you make nukes.

Biggest and best are two totally seperate issues. America would control the skies and the sea hands down.

And the army? Could you defeat a 100,000,000 man army?

 

[seinfeldrules]

You would be defending Taiwan and therefore you would be risking a war.

I dont see how a defender can be responsible for the aggessor. If NK invades SK, are we responsible for risking a war by defending SK?

If you defended Taiwan China would most likely decleare war on you. And you with the two biggest military powers in the world fighting eachother, it would surely lead to a new world war. Not to mention that both of you make nukes.

If we defended Taiwan against a Chinese attack, we would obviously be at war. The only ones who would take the China's side would be NK. Hardly a world war, it would be isolated to that part of Asia.

And the army? Could you defeat a 100,000,000 man army?

How would they get their army anywhere? Will they walk to Taiwan? Furthermore, we could defeat their army. There is no way China could fully arm an army of that size. Size doesnt mean everything in war.

 

[Razor]

I dont see how a defender can be responsible for the aggessor. If NK invades SK, are we responsible for risking a war by defending SK?


If we defended Taiwan against a Chinese attack, we would obviously be at war. The only ones who would take the China's side would be NK. Hardly a world war, it would be isolated to that part of Asia.


How would they get their army anywhere? Will they walk to Taiwan? Furthermore, we could defeat their army. There is no way China could fully arm an army of that size. Size doesnt mean everything in war.

It seemed to mean a lot in the Korean war when America "accidently" invaded China and China retaliated by helping North Korea push America back to the 38th Parallel. The Soviet Union and American and Britain also proved you wrong during World War 2, advanced technology can be and is defeated by the mindset of a millions of screaming soldiers willing to banzai charge you.

 

[kirovman]

This is a very similar situation to NK invading SK. We have been close allies with Taiwan (Chang Kai Shek) since WWII and even before.

Then why have most of the world forfeited diplomatic relations to have relations with China?

If we really cared about their democracy and freedom, we'd loudly support them, and they'd be in the UN now rather than China having the UN seat.
Has George Bush been to Taiwan?
Now has he been to China?
Has Chen Shui-Bian been invited to the Whitehouse before?
Has the Chinese Prime-Minister been to the whitehouse before?


Sounds a bit strange, defending someone you've never met before.
And USA depends heavily on Chinese imports.

After talks, Mr Bush made clear the US is against any unilateral moves which threaten its 'one China' policy.

Speaking to reporters in the Oval Office of the White House after a 40-minute meeting with Prime Minister Wen Jiabao, Mr Bush said: "The United States' policy is one China.

Let's face it, the main reason the USA wants to keep Taiwan seperate from China is to try and slow the power of China's growth and influence.
But it's not going to stop them becoming a superpower and eventually getting it.

 

[The Monkey]

I dont see how a defender can be responsible for the aggessor. If NK invades SK, are we responsible for risking a war by defending SK?


If we defended Taiwan against a Chinese attack, we would obviously be at war. The only ones who would take the China's side would be NK. Hardly a world war, it would be isolated to that part of Asia.


How would they get their army anywhere? Will they walk to Taiwan? Furthermore, we could defeat their army. There is no way China could fully arm an army of that size. Size doesnt mean everything in war.

You are not responsible for it, but you had the choise to stay out of the war, or defend Taiwan.

The WWI was basicly in entirely fougt in Europe (except for some scattered fights in africa and oceania), and yet that's callad a world war.

They will attack Taiwan with 100,000,000 men, but they will defend their country with it. The army will use everything at hand, and they know the countryside. Even if you defeated that army, how do you expect to control a country with 1,300,000,000 citizens? And don't forget about the nukes...

 

[seinfeldrules]

It seemed to mean a lot in the Korean war when America "accidently" invaded China and China retaliated by helping North Korea push America back to the 38th Parallel. The Soviet Union and American and Britain also proved you wrong during World War 2, advanced technology can be and is defeated by the mindset of a millions of screaming soldiers willing to banzai charge you.

Actually, China launched the attack across the Yalu, not the other way around.

The Soviet Union and American and Britain also proved you wrong during World War 2,

How close did we come to losing though? A few intelligent moves by Hitler and we do lose the war.

If we really cared about their democracy and freedom, we'd loudly support them, and they'd be in the UN now rather than China.

That isnt realistic. Why should we recognize them as China over a nation of a billion people?

Here are some other quotes and tid bits I neglected to post from the original article. They address much of the latter section of your post.

Washington is bound to defend Taiwan's security in the event of any attack from the mainland, but has increasingly warned Taipei against unilateral moves to change the status quo.

Last month both Japan and the United States listed security in the Taiwan Strait as a common concern.

I also forgot to post a link to the article. It was a pain in the ass to find it again. http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/03/07/china.npc.law/index.html

EDIT:

Let's face it, the main reason the USA wants to keep Taiwan seperate from China is to try and slow the power of China's growth and influence.
But it's not going to stop them becoming a superpower and eventually getting it.

I believe the US wants a seperate Taiwan and China because we support democracy. It isnt like we have just started to defend them, it has always been our policy. I dont argue the notion that China will one day be a superpower.

 

[kirovman]

That isnt realistic. Why should we recognize them as China over a nation of a billion people?

If you really believed in democracy, you'd do it.

Once again:

After talks, Mr Bush made clear the US is against any unilateral moves which threaten its 'one China' policy.

Speaking to reporters in the Oval Office of the White House after a 40-minute meeting with Prime Minister Wen Jiabao, Mr Bush said: "The United States' policy is one China.

Now, I might be nieve, but I can only think of one meaning to that statement.

 

[seinfeldrules]

You are not responsible for it, but you had the choise to stay out of the war, or defend Taiwan.

I would risk war to defend Taiwan from unnecessary Chinese aggression, and I'm sure most of the world would as well.

They will attack Taiwan with 100,000,000 men, but they will defend their country with it. The army will use everything at hand, and they know the countryside. Even if you defeated that army, how do you expect to control a country with 1,300,000,000 citizens? And don't forget about the nukes...

I dont expect that we would invade China.

 

[Gray Fox]

Unfortunatly I have to agree with the looniest of the loonie right on this one, there is no way china could win in china vs US war, remmebr 590 billion US vs 500 billion the rest of the world put togetehr on defense.

Second of all technology does matter way more these days then it used to be, rememeber then the inventions could come from one smart man, these days most of the progress is made by investing billions and with big teams. And taiwan is protected by the sea, so technology is even more important especially sea and air.

Razor:

It seemed to mean a lot in the Korean war when America "accidently" invaded China and China retaliated by helping North Korea push America back to the 38th Parallel. The Soviet Union and American and Britain also proved you wrong during World War 2, advanced technology can be and is defeated by the mindset of a millions of screaming soldiers willing to banzai charge you.

Actualyl the allies had superior air technology in most of their planes and had air supperiority, thats why they won. And if you are refering to the eastern front then you have ot remember that germany was not protected by a sea. Those million soldiers need transportations.

And then you have like I said the fact that china needs a lot of it's soldiers to keep the country stable, and under the ruling parties thumb.

And lest not forget NATO, as far as I know we unfortunatly have certain obligations if one of our members is attacked, so the war would soon turn in to a US&EU vs China.

And then you havet he fact that the eu is planning to lift the embargo on weapons to china, so the chinese will be fighting with inferior european weapons.

 

[Sprafa]

there's a Chinese-Russian Mutual Defense Treaty in force.

They've done the exercises planning for an USA naval and air based counterstrike against an invasion of Taiwan. Believe me, you would lose. Not too badly, but with so many men and ships in the Middle East, the Chinese wouldn't have much to worry about. The USA has said again and again they won't defend Taiwan agaisnt a Chinese attack because technically, it would be a civil war.

But it won't happen.

 

[seinfeldrules]

If you really believed in democracy, you'd do it.

Then maybe we should act in complete ignorance and declare that the entire ME is now referred to as 'Israel'. Again, it isnt realistic to ignore a government which governs over a billion people. I think that both countries should be recognized as soveirgn nations.

there's a Chinese-Russian Mutual Defense Treaty in force.

Well if Russia joined NATO they'd have some thinking to do wouldnt they?

But it won't happen.

I wish I could agree, but anything is possible. One spark in a situation like this...

 

[bliink]

I remember reading something that outlined potential nuclear war scenarios.
The only one that would affect Australia would be if China decided to use nukes in this situation.
I'm pretty sure that won't happen though.

 

[kirovman]

Then maybe we should act in complete ignorance and declare that the entire ME is now referred to as 'Israel'. Again, it isnt realistic to ignore a government which governs over a billion people. I think that both countries should be recognized as soveirgn nations.

Yes, but the nations of the middle east are diplomatically recognised. Israel has no realistic claim over say Iran, for example.

All I was saying is that if you believed in democracy, you'd recognise Taiwan as a legitamate government, and take steps to set up a real alliance with it. No matter how much China complains.

Democracy and freedom are the most important things in this world, right?

George Bush obviously thinks (or says at least) Taiwan shouldn't be seperate from the mainland.

 

[seinfeldrules]

I dont think Taiwan has even declared Independence itself.

George Bush obviously thinks (or says at least) Taiwan shouldn't be seperate from the mainland.

I think he merely 'says' it to try and act diplomatic.

 

[Sprafa]

Well if Russia joined NATO they'd have some thinking to do wouldnt they?

That's a pretty unrealistic dream, but even if they did join NATO there's not real reason to leave the MDP with China. Anyways, I'd say there's more chances Russia splinters and joins the eU than joining NATO.

I wish I could agree, but anything is possible. One spark in a situation like this...

The Chinese-Russian Alliance is pretty much too heavy for the USA to do anything. If the Chinese start clattering up, it'll be slowly and peacefully. They will not fire unless fired upon, and they will give them an Autonomous Region status like Tibet and Inner Mongolia.
C'mon, who would risk a nuclear war over Taiwan....

 

[seinfeldrules]

C'mon, who would risk a nuclear war over Taiwan....

The Chinese, if they invaded.

 

[Sprafa]

I dont think Taiwan has even declared Independence itself.

It hasn't, you're absolutely right, the loonies still think they "own" China.

I think he merely 'says' it to try and act diplomatic.

And so do the Chinese.

 

[kirovman]

I dont think Taiwan has even declared Independence itself.

So how can they be a democracy if their government is not recognised?
Well, if freedom of political expression is important, why do we not invite Chen for dinner at the white house, to discuss his independence.

Keeping a state or non-state in limbo, how is it going to help anything. It's either independent or it's not, that's my opinion.

Let me quote someone from a website:

I do not agree with everything the Communist government does, but they have my support because they are the ones that make every Chinese person around the world stand proud with dignity. Look at how corrupt the so-call democratic Taiwanese government is, and they are nothing but a muppet [puppet?] of the Americans.
D. Yung, Canada

And remember, GWB is on record as supporting the One China policy.

It hasn't, you're absolutely right, the loonies still think they "own" China.

Yes, they aren't independent, because they are still waiting to invade the mainland and restore the Republic of China (which was a joke of a democracy - the KMT simply served themselves - they even took loads of gold and assets to Taiwan when they retreated there) .

 

[seinfeldrules]

So how can they be a democracy if their government is not recognised?
Well, if freedom of political expression is important, why do we not invite Chen for dinner at the white house, to discuss his independence.

I would. I dont need to agree with GWB on everything. :angel: