China and Taiwan

[kirovman]

I would. I dont need to agree with GWB on everything. :angel:

Ok, but you're a good guy though, you don't say one thing, and mean another.

Which is a bad quality for a politician

 

[Sprafa]

The Chinese, if they invaded.

Exactly my point. Why would they do that ? Taiwan is a crappy island packed with democracy-lovers. It has very little strategic value or even intrinsic value. There is no urgency in invading.

My guess is give them 20, maybe 10 years and the Chinese will start killing Taiwan's economy with their influence (meaning, lots of moneh in the right pockets). When it starts relying on foreign aid, the Chinese start, very quietly and slowly, taking over. Then, eventually some pro-Chinese politicians start seeing "the good side" of the mainland (meaning, more moneh in the right pockets) and eventually, they get a referendum/vote in the Parlament where the Chinese get their annexation.

if you look at the USA in the 60s & 70s, you see that with the money in the right pockets, they managed to kill the commies. The Chinese will soon have more money than anyone else.

 

[seinfeldrules]

Why would they do that ?

They continually see it as a slap in the face maybe?

Ok, but you're a good guy though, you don't say one thing, and mean another.

Which is a bad quality for a politician

Meh, they all do it, and thats a shame.

 

[kirovman]

Exactly my point. Why would they do that ? Taiwan is a crappy island packed with democracy-lovers. It has very little strategic value or even intrinsic value. There is no urgency in invading.

My guess is give them 20, maybe 10 years and the Chinese will start killing Taiwan's economy with their influence (meaning, lots of moneh in the right pockets). When it starts relying on foreign aid, the Chinese start, very quietly and slowly, taking over. Then, eventually some pro-Chinese politicians start seeing "the good side" of the mainland (meaning, more moneh in the right pockets) and eventually, they get a referendum/vote in the Parlament where the Chinese get their annexation.

They already do see the good side of the mainland. All the successful Taiwanese businessmen commute to the mainland regularly.
May I add that Taiwan has made it very difficult (or just about impossible) for any mainland Chinese to goto Taiwan, but Taiwanese people can freely goto the mainland.

Oh and this.

Taiwan flashpoint is also worth a read.

 

[Calanen]

My life is in danger here,I live in Shenzhen,which is much too close......

Your life is only in danger if you live in Taiwan....or unless you criticise the Chinese government in Shenzen. I think you've got more chance of dying on China's roads than being hit by anything Taiwan may fire. I doubt they have much they are going to send to Shenzen.

 

[Calanen]

They already do see the good side of the mainland. All the successful Taiwanese businessmen commute to the mainland regularly.
May I add that Taiwan has made it very difficult (or just about impossible) for any mainland Chinese to goto Taiwan, but Taiwanese people can freely goto the mainland.

Oh and this.

Taiwan flashpoint is also worth a read.

You can go the mainland sure. But every now and again, China rounds up groups of businessmen when it is angry with Taiwan over something it has said or done, calling them 'spies' and parading them on State sponsored TV.

The only good side of the mainland they see is the ability to sell stuff to the nearest largest market. It's just economics, not some ringing endorsement of China.

 

[kirovman]

Just watching something about China on the TV now, they are going to an election in China (under protection of government convoy).

The communist party member says "China is a very democratic country...all communist party members get a vote"

And "90% of the elections are a sham, how can we have free elections under a one party system?" - says one CCP official - well at least he seems free enough to say it in the street, on TV. :O

also an interesting read

On the subject of taiwan:

"Chinese military philosophy is the same today as it was 2,000 years ago. It is to win without fighting," he [Dr Steven Tsang] says.

China is not yet in a position to carry out D-Day type landings in Taiwan, but it does not need to invade. It could blockade and is increasing its maritime power to that end with destroyers and submarines." said Mr Kennedy.

 

[Sprafa]

They already do see the good side of the mainland. All the successful Taiwanese businessmen commute to the mainland regularly.
May I add that Taiwan has made it very difficult (or just about impossible) for any mainland Chinese to goto Taiwan, but Taiwanese people can freely goto the mainland.

Oh and this.

Taiwan flashpoint is also worth a read.

Heh. Well, maybe the capitalist pigs will turn over Taiwan in return for more moneh.

 

[Calanen]

Funny how our leaders refuse to meet Chen Shui-Bian (Clinton met him recently, but he's ex-pres) though (and the Dalai Lama). It'd be a bit odd to put your ass on the line for someone you'd frozen or killed relations with.

If democracy really mattered to the West (rather than this superficial "we fight valiently for democracy and freedom - by fighting countries who have no chance against us" attitude, we would support Taiwan to the bitter end, no question.

Nah, we're all just selffish and greedy really, we want to take advantage of Chinese cheap labour and cheap goods, even if it means getting intimate with a communist government.

Thats putting it too highly. But America has never wanted war with China. Its just too big. The best chance that America had to fight war with China was when it sent 500,000 of its own troops to fight in the Korean War. Easily justifiable if you are a forein power attacking our troops, then the war is coming back to you. But after the long years of WW2 the public would not stand for it. Or so the politicians judged and were right I believe.

America does what it can - but its a very big call to declare war on China over the island of Taiwan. They won't do it. And China knows they wont do it. Even though the USA has a the higest level of treaty with Taiwan. The USA will look for some form of 'out' by saying China was responding to Taiwan's aggression or something equally silly. Militarily, I don't think that China is as tough as they think. A bit like Saddam's troops. But they still have an awful lot of them, like 2 million or so, and could raise reserves very quickly.

People in Hong Kong and the mainland largely believe that Taiwan is part of China. Most of the people in Taiwan believe that it is not. There may be some face saving deal done, so Taiwan becomes 'one country two systems' like Hong Kong. It was the same deal with Hong Kong, when Deng Xiaping said to Maggie Thatcher, give it back with dignity or I will take it back by force. Even if Taiwan is strongarmed, most people I think will take the reality check and go, being part of China is better than being dead.

That said, the Olympics and everything else is very very important to China. Its all about 'face'. Keeping up appearances. They will say they will risk it all, but they don't mean it. This is just intimidation for now. I still guess they won't actually invade until after the Olympics.

As for being nuetral, US and Europe may not enter the conflict. But China will be widely condemned as a pariah for about 10 years after invading Taiwan. But then every1 will forget about it.

 

[kirovman]

Thats putting it too highly. But America has never wanted war with China. Its just too big. The best chance that America had to fight war with China was when it sent 500,000 of its own troops to fight in the Korean War. Easily justifiable if you are a forein power attacking our troops, then the war is coming back to you. But after the long years of WW2 the public would not stand for it. Or so the politicians judged and were right I believe.

America does what it can - but its a very big call to declare war on China over the island of Taiwan. They won't do it. And China knows they wont do it. Even though the USA has a the higest level of treaty with Taiwan. The USA will look for some form of 'out' by saying China was responding to Taiwan's aggression or something equally silly. Militarily, I don't think that China is as tough as they think. A bit like Saddam's troops. But they still have an awful lot of them, like 2 million or so, and could raise reserves very quickly.

People in Hong Kong and the mainland largely believe that Taiwan is part of China. Most of the people in Taiwan believe that it is not. There may be some face saving deal done, so Taiwan becomes 'one country two systems' like Hong Kong. It was the same deal with Hong Kong, when Deng Xiaping said to Maggie Thatcher, give it back with dignity or I will take it back by force. Even if Taiwan is strongarmed, most people I think will take the reality check and go, being part of China is better than being dead.

That said, the Olympics and everything else is very very important to China. Its all about 'face'. Keeping up appearances. They will say they will risk it all, but they don't mean it. This is just intimidation for now. I still guess they won't actually invade until after the Olympics.

As for being nuetral, US and Europe may not enter the conflict. But China will be widely condemned as a pariah for about 10 years after invading Taiwan. But then every1 will forget about it.

Yeah, I'm fed up with that keeping face thing.

I have met chinese people who are also fed up with others keeping face.
It just seems a bit...pre-school for me.

My exposure to their military: I went into an army base in Beijing, I was a bit worried about getting kicked out for being a foreign spy, but my friend said it would be fine.(we were going to pick up another person before going to dinner)

I went inside and had soldiers saying "Hello Laowai!" to me with big grins on their faces.

I actually said "Hello! My God, so undisciplined..."

I also lived next door to the "China satellite control centre" for a couple of months, and I jokingly told people I was taking pictures from a vantage point.
But getting woken up every morning by a tune that sounds like "happy birthday to you" and the army shouts was a bit tiresome

 

[Calanen]

Exactly my point. Why would they do that ? Taiwan is a crappy island packed with democracy-lovers. It has very little strategic value or even intrinsic value. There is no urgency in invading.

Neither you nor I will ever completely understand the Chinese concept of face. But it is a very big deal to the Chinese. Proper respect (or what they consider to be proper respect, which is acknowledgint they are much better than you are) at all times. You cannot make a joke with superiors (chinese superiors) in the office, because you are not equal to them. You don't laugh with them, they laugh at you. You must cowtow completely like the subservient slave to those who are considered important. Taiwan is the small boy who is stubbornly not doing what the big bully next door wants. That is intolerable for Chinese. They freak out about anything they consider 'embarassing'. They never want to eat humble pie, even with a serving of ice cream.....

 

[Calanen]

My exposure to their military: I went into an army base in Beijing, I was a bit worried about getting kicked out for being a foreign spy, but my friend said it would be fine.(we were going to pick up another person before going to dinner)

I went inside and had soldiers saying "Hello Laowai!" to me with big grins on their faces.

I actually said "Hello! My God, so undisciplined..."

One of the lawyers I knew, a former mainland chinese lawyer with very high level contacts, wanted me to meet with a high ranking officer of the PLA Garrison in Hong Kong, given they were old school buddies. I never got around to doing it. He said though, you are not American right? Because if the chinese secret services find out he is meeting with an American they will kill him, this is just for a drink. And I said, nope, only had Australian and Irish passports. So he thought this would be OK. But someone else I mentioned this to, said, make sure you do not meet him for a drink in the PLA HQ on the harbour. Because if the General thinks its amusing to have you shot - no1 can save you once you are inside those gates. So, this guy said, his advice was, to have a drink outside the gates, and in the CBD. May be a remote risk, but why take it on?

I never did have that drink - my service in Hong Kong, cut short, again.... but I would have liked to have.

 

[kirovman]

Neither you nor I will ever completely understand the Chinese concept of face. But it is a very big deal to the Chinese. Proper respect (or what they consider to be proper respect, which is acknowledgint they are much better than you are) at all times. You cannot make a joke with superiors (chinese superiors) in the office, because you are not equal to them. You don't laugh with them, they laugh at you. You must cowtow completely like the subservient slave to those who are considered important. Taiwan is the small boy who is stubbornly not doing what the big bully next door wants. That is intolerable for Chinese. They freak out about anything they consider 'embarassing'. They never want to eat humble pie, even with a serving of ice cream.....

I kind of understand it, but it's like one of those voices in my head I never listen to...c.f. good conscience

But I think most westerners will not understand the Chinese mind. Or indeed the Japanese or Korean mind.

We westerners are very used to doing everything directly or "on the table". Tell people they don't like something, if we're not satisfied we will say so.
Chinese like to do things "under the table" so to speak.
They don't like to bother people. This goes for non-mainland chinese too.

But I think the Chinese mode of thinking would deserve another forum for discussion, never mind another thread. It's very complex for westerners to discuss, there's a lot of things the typical westerner just wouldn't understand. That probably includes the current government.

 

[Calanen]

But getting woken up every morning by a tune that sounds like "happy birthday to you" and the army shouts was a bit tiresome

Happy Birthday Reveille! Why didn't the Australian army think of this?

In Macau I noticed they love the happy birthday song. I have no idea why, but I heard it playing on the radio and in shops there. I could see PLA soldiers marching about on the parade ground below the office where I worked. One time there were a whole of girls in skimpy bikinis at the pool there. Not known whether they were female PLA soldiers, or 'entertainment'. The PLA are not allowed to wear their uniforms outside of the gates of the bases. That said, I'm *sure* I saw a PLA guy in uniform in the park near Causeway Bay - he was unarmed, just walking through the park.

A friend of my father's, a long time ago, like in the early 80s, went for a run in the morning while doing business in China. He had the misfortune of running near a military base and was arrested as a spy, and given a good hiding. He was released after about 12 hours, making a more convincing case by saying 'Where's my camera if I'm a spy?' which they seemed to believe, eventually.

 

[Gray Fox]

US(with their hands tied behind their backs)>the rest of the world
And as far as I know taiwan has declared itself independent of the mainland, and they do have a treaty with the US.

 

[kirovman]

Happy Birthday Reveille! Why didn't the Australian army think of this?

In Macau I noticed they love the happy birthday song. I have no idea why, but I heard it playing on the radio and in shops there. I could see PLA soldiers marching about on the parade ground below the office where I worked. One time there were a whole of girls in skimpy bikinis at the pool there. Not known whether they were female PLA soldiers, or 'entertainment'. The PLA are not allowed to wear their uniforms outside of the gates of the bases. That said, I'm *sure* I saw a PLA guy in uniform in the park near Causeway Bay - he was unarmed, just walking through the park.

A friend of my father's, a long time ago, like in the early 80s, went for a run in the morning while doing business in China. He had the misfortune of running near a military base and was arrested as a spy, and given a good hiding. He was released after about 12 hours, making a more convincing case by saying 'Where's my camera if I'm a spy?' which they seemed to believe, eventually.

Yes the happy birthday tune is popular, they have it playing on roadcleaner cars

When you talk about the PLA, you mean the green attire guys(people's liberation army)?

Heh, they are all Public Relations these days.
I got one sneaky PLA guy standing inside one of my photographs, with a big grin! :O
We hadn't invited him in the picture, and we didn't even know he was there! Now that's scary. I fear their military for this sole reason.

 

[Icarusintel]

US(with their hands tied behind their backs)>the rest of the world
And as far as I know taiwan has declared itself independent of the mainland, and they do have a treaty with the US.

amen to the first part
I have a roomate who's Taiwanese and he hates the Chinese, though really, I dunno, I think China's bluffing this whole thing, they've been saying they were gonna attack Taiwan for some time now but they have yet to do it, they're hoping Taiwan caves so they don;t have to attack, because that would be hella bad for them

 

[Calanen]

US(with their hands tied behind their backs)>the rest of the world
And as far as I know taiwan has declared itself independent of the mainland, and they do have a treaty with the US.

Right about the second bit, wrong on the first. Taiwan has never declared independence, but for a long time said that it was China! Even went to the United Nations as China for many years, when China was out in the cold. Whatever you think of China or Taiwan, Taiwan is not and will never be China.

So Taiwan runs its own show, does what it likes, but it has never formally declared independence. Why? because with the whole face saving thing, that would be the key for China to invade. And China would do it over that. I know its silly, and hell I don't understand it. But if Taiwan had a big festival and said, independent Taiwan with fireworks and announcements on the news, China would quickly go to war. And the people in the street in China would be cheering them on.

 

[Eg.]

has anyone mentioned that laowai is actually a racist comment?

 

[KoreBolteR]

Right about the second bit, wrong on the first. Taiwan has never declared independence, but for a long time said that it was China! Even went to the United Nations as China for many years, when China was out in the cold. Whatever you think of China or Taiwan, Taiwan is not and will never be China.

So Taiwan runs its own show, does what it likes, but it has never formally declared independence. Why? because with the whole face saving thing, that would be the key for China to invade. And China would do it over that. I know its silly, and hell I don't understand it. But if Taiwan had a big festival and said, independent Taiwan with fireworks and announcements on the news, China would quickly go to war. And the people in the street in China would be cheering them on.

i feel if taiwan did that, it would be like the Russia-Chechen affair all over again ..

taiwanese insurgents would spring up everywhere. Just as the Chechens have formed a rebellion against Putin.


and going offtopic... Eg.? how long was you banned for? nice too see you back :thumbs:

 

[Calanen]

I have a roomate who's Taiwanese and he hates the Chinese, though really, I dunno, I think China's bluffing this whole thing, they've been saying they were gonna attack Taiwan for some time now but they have yet to do it, they're hoping Taiwan caves so they don;t have to attack, because that would be hella bad for them

I don't think it will be. If you think the liberals had a field day in a war on Iraq, what do u think they will do about China vs Taiwan and US involvement? They will say Taiwan has always been China, China is saving them from a corrupt government, Taiwan provoked them... or a million other crazy things. But what they will never do, is support US deployments to stop China, even if China invades Taiwan and executes the whole island.

So that said - even moderate persons in the Western democracis, are going to adopt a 'sh_t happens' approach to the people in Taiwan. Perhaps even the Bush administration will not be involved in defending Taiwan, for the same political realities. But, you never know......

My view is this - we will one day have to confront China in war. Some time, some place - doesn't matter. I expect it will be as they expand into South East Asia. But this may be 20-30 years time.

And it is better now to confront China, than in 20, or 30, or 50 years time when they have the latest weaponry and a re-tooled army. Certainly would have been better to smash them during the Korean War.

 

[Icarusintel]

And it is better now to confront China, than in 20, or 30, or 50 years time when they have the latest weaponry and a re-tooled army. Certainly would have been better to smash them during the Korean War.

They';re already adapting US tactics for their own use, they've downsized and are working on squad tactics

 

[KoreBolteR]

My view is this - we will one day have to confront China in war. Some time, some place - doesn't matter. I expect it will be as they expand into South East Asia. But this may be 20-30 years time.

And it is better now to confront China, than in 20, or 30, or 50 years time when they have the latest weaponry and a re-tooled army. Certainly would have been better to smash them during the Korean War.

itll never happen, bombing china to bits in the present day because they are a future threat? it'll cost too much money, time and effort, especially towards a country that hasnt done anything particularly wrong.

if they did do this, they would have to not kill any innocents intentionally, only eliminate the military targets and air bases/ship docks and anywhere which could be a gain to the 'future chinese monster army'. and in my eyes that impossible without killing millions of innocents.

 

[kirovman]

has anyone mentioned that laowai is actually a racist comment?

It means foreigner or specifically "great outsider" which is a complimentary term. Lao has a good meaning, like Laoshi "[great] teacher" or Laoba "[great] father"

I believe the racist term is "yang gui zi" (cantonese= gweilo) which means foreign ghost/devil.

As for the confronting China militarily business...it's a bit late to say we should have done in the Korean war... might not have even worked anyway. If we want to rule the world, sure we could have given it a shot, but it would have been carrying on where the Nazis and Japanese left off.

I don't think China is going to start more wars, not in the forseeable future.
The only invasion I can think of that they did was Tibet (not sure about Xinjiang), and that was with crazy chairman mao at the helm of the ship. The leaders since have been a lot more cautious (and probably don't make any Tibet concessions, just because of the "keeping face" attitude).

Their nationalism is a bit worrying though.

Also...did anyone remember China has nukes and ICBMs (and nuclear submarines - for which the missile defence system would be ineffective against) If you goto war with them out of the blue, and very harshly, they are going to retaliate!

 

[Calanen]

I believe the racist term is "yang gui zi" (cantonese= gweilo) which means foreign ghost/devil.

I used to hear Chinese talking about me, and the term 'gweilo' would be heard in the string of conversation, especially shop assistants talking to their managers, ie this dumb gweilo has brought his phone in to be repaired. They got a shock when I'd call them out on this. Can you call me Mr Gweilo? Or Mr Devilman in English please?

Im not much worried about China and its ICMBs. Word is they are shite. What would be the biggest worry is regular nuke in a ship detonating off New York harbour or something. And as for them saying the missile shield wont work, doubt it. All their stuff is old. At least the ICBM stuff anyway. Im sure that is what they want us to believe, but I doubt it. Being a dictatorship however, they can field troops forever and the public gets no say - so a long costly and horrible war would be going to take place. It is, in the end I think inevitable. But inevitable, perhaps when none of us are around or competent to do anything about it.

 

[kirovman]

I used to hear Chinese talking about me, and the term 'gweilo' would be heard in the string of conversation, especially shop assistants talking to their managers, ie this dumb gweilo has brought his phone in to be repaired. They got a shock when I'd call them out on this. Can you call me Mr Gweilo? Or Mr Devilman in English please?

Im not much worried about China and its ICMBs. Word is they are shite. What would be the biggest worry is regular nuke in a ship detonating off New York harbour or something. And as for them saying the missile shield wont work, doubt it. All their stuff is old. At least the ICBM stuff anyway. Im sure that is what they want us to believe, but I doubt it. Being a dictatorship however, they can field troops forever and the public gets no say - so a long costly and horrible war would be going to take place. It is, in the end I think inevitable. But inevitable, perhaps when none of us are around or competent to do anything about it.

Well they put a man in space, orbitting the world several times.

I wouldn't make that bet about their capabilities.

As for yang gui zi, my girlfriend joking calls me it, so I kind of invented my own chinese word zhong gui zi (kind equivilent of a chinese yang gui zi) to call her it back.

Chinese people tend to be shocked when she calls me this word, but they laugh when I call her zhong gui zi.
All in good spirit though, no hard feelings.
She is worried I am a spy because I can always pick out words from her conversation, especially the bad ones.

 

[Eg.]

well im my school we have a feqw kids go off to china every year. i was picked, and i didnt go for because i chosen to take soem internships at hospitals. now when i thought i was going, they gave classes on the culture and how to act. laowai and baiwai=sheep devil were some of the words that the teacher said to watch out for. the kids that came back said it was ok though, you can bye a crossbow for 5 cents

 

[Calanen]

Hmm you may be able to buy a crossbow cheap, but try getting it back through US customs.

 

[Razor]

Unfortunatly I have to agree with the looniest of the loonie right on this one, there is no way china could win in china vs US war, remmebr 590 billion US vs 500 billion the rest of the world put togetehr on defense.

Second of all technology does matter way more these days then it used to be, rememeber then the inventions could come from one smart man, these days most of the progress is made by investing billions and with big teams. And taiwan is protected by the sea, so technology is even more important especially sea and air.

Razor:


Actualyl the allies had superior air technology in most of their planes and had air supperiority, thats why they won. And if you are refering to the eastern front then you have ot remember that germany was not protected by a sea. Those million soldiers need transportations.

And then you have like I said the fact that china needs a lot of it's soldiers to keep the country stable, and under the ruling parties thumb.

And lest not forget NATO, as far as I know we unfortunatly have certain obligations if one of our members is attacked, so the war would soon turn in to a US&EU vs China.

And then you havet he fact that the eu is planning to lift the embargo on weapons to china, so the chinese will be fighting with inferior european weapons.

The allies never had superiour technology, the only reason Britain, America and Russia beat Germany was that Gemany couldn't resupply their army and airfoce and couldn't replenish lost units. The Germans had better tanks by far, the Germans had better plans by far, the Meteor couldn't take on a Me262, and neither could a Mustang, even with the British engine. If the Germans had the resources the allies had in 1945, Germany would of won.

And i think your patriotism is blinding you when you say "inferiour European Weapons", what exactly is so inferiour about the Eurofighter and the Su37 Flanker, what is so inferiour about the brand new renditions of the Harrier, the US Marine corp don't think the Harrier is inferiour...

 

[Gray Fox]

I said the allies had supperior technology in most of their planes and that is definatly true, yes the germans had me262, but how much, a handful of them, while most their planes could not outmatch the spitfire.

And yes eurofighter is inferior to the f-20, in comabt simulations it is extimated that the f-20 would win 8 out of `0 times, the flanker is nice at airshowes but it does not outmatch the f-20, plus you have ot remmebr that teh US has an icredible amount of information infrastructure, via satelites or specially outfited comercial planes, that the eurpeans don't have or any country or continent.
So they know you're coming from 300 miles away, while at the same time our countering you're radar.

Besides my other points still stand + taiwan is sparated by the sea, and look at the 2 world war, it is not by pure chance that the only country not to be invaded was england.

 

[Razor]

I said the allies had supperior technology in most of their planes and that is definatly true, yes the germans had me262, but how much, a handful of them, while most their planes could not outmatch the spitfire.

And yes eurofighter is inferior to the f-20, in comabt simulations it is extimated that the f-20 would win 8 out of `0 times, the flanker is nice at airshowes but it does not outmatch the f-20, plus you have ot remmebr that teh US has an icredible amount of information infrastructure, via satelites or specially outfited comercial planes, that the eurpeans don't have or any country or continent.
So they know you're coming from 300 miles away, while at the same time our countering you're radar.

Besides my other points still stand + taiwan is sparated by the sea, and look at the 2 world war, it is not by pure chance that the only country not to be invaded was england.

My argument was that the Germans had better technology, a Tiger tank could destroy Allied tanks, including Soviet, at a rate of 10 - 1, however, the Allies could replace those 10 tanks far easier then the Germans could replace 1 Tiger, or 2 Panzer IVs. Anyway, my argument was that technology wasn't everything, when you have enough people who are willing to die for what they believe in, they can beat even the most advanced of armies. If the Germans had the same resourses that the Allies had, the Allies would have been slaughtered and pushed back into the English channel with ease.

The American's also have absolutely nothing that Europe and England can't match, spy satelites? yes, spy planes? check, Awacs aircraft? we've got a few of those? Advanced communication systems and gps systems? Some of them as well. The Chinese might not be able to match America interms of super expensive equipment and the latest stealth technology, but the European Union and the Uk definately can.

It is also called an F22 Raptor, not an F20. I also think England would of been lost if it wasn't for the English channel, that doesn't mean that England had it easy. The fact that England was an island won the war, no England, no staging post for any sort of invasion of the European mainland.

The only situation a Su37 Flanker would get outmatched by the F22 is stealth and radar, the manuveurability of the Flanker is superiour and so are the weapon systems, the R73 being better, in my opinion, then the Sidewinder and the new Sidewinder X.

Anyway, we are diverging from the topic at hand .

Both China and the allies, if there ever was a war, would be at a huge disadvantage from Taiwan being an island, it means resources and defensive troops would have a huge problem getting from Japan to Taiwan, and also that Chinese troops couldn't invade. But China would have the advantage though, being the aggressor. But then, all the allies would need do is stop the Chinese from landing any troops on Taiwan to defend it.

 

[seinfeldrules]

My argument was that the Germans had better technology, a Tiger tank could destroy Allied tanks, including Soviet, at a rate of 10 - 1, however, the Allies could replace those 10 tanks far easier then the Germans could replace 1 Tiger, or 2 Panzer IVs. Anyway, my argument was that technology wasn't everything, when you have enough people who are willing to die for what they believe in, they can beat even the most advanced of armies. If the Germans had the same resourses that the Allies had, the Allies would have been slaughtered and pushed back into the English channel with ease.

Yes, and the US could still maintain the 10-1 ratio while putting more tanks onto the battlefield faster than the Chinese.

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

Didn't the Nationalists recently do quite poorly in some elections (or something of the sort) in Taiwan? It seems they're not as popular as people may think.

 

[Calanen]

Didn't the Nationalists recently do quite poorly in some elections (or something of the sort) in Taiwan? It seems they're not as popular as people may think.

Those issues go to local ones more than independence yes or no. All polls show that those who want to join with china, are way in the minority.

 

[KoreBolteR]

Those issues go to local ones more than independence yes or no. All polls show that those who want to join with china, are way in the minority.

so why dont china let them be free?
are taiwan a suitcase of money or something?

 

[The Monkey]

If it becomes war between China and the US, you better get Star Wars up'n running real quick!

 

[kirovman]

so why dont china let them be free?
are taiwan a suitcase of money or something?

Because "the Chinese people will not allow it"


It's a very complicated situation, the typical west mind has no real way of comprehending it (or so I'm told), something to do with rebuilding national pride after we (the West) and Japan trampled all over it.

After all the losses they have suffered in the past 200 years, they have drawn the line and said "No More"

That's what I was told.

Did you watch Question Time last night?

They said to the communist party representative:
"Isn't it up for the people of Taiwan to decide their destiny?"

he replied:
"Taiwan is China, it is up to the 1.3 billion people here to chose the destiny of China"

And I believe if the Communist party said "We are letting Taiwan go independent" tomorrow, there would be uprising by the populace of China against this. Strange, but true.

 

[Calanen]

If it becomes war between China and the US, you better get Star Wars up'n running real quick!

Could be useful. An assessment of China's military said that they had no more than 20 ICBMs. Not like the several thousand the US has. It would not be too hard to hit 20 ICBMs on the ground, or kill some in the air.

http://www.sinodefence.com/nuclear/default.asp

China has deployed unknown number (no more than 20) of DF-5 single-warhead, three-stage, liquid-fuel ICBM since the 1980s. The missile was originally designed to target continental United States, but it could also be used to cover targets in Europe and Russia. Based on the 1960s/70s technology, the DF-5 is obsolete compared to similar systems in service with the US and Russia—It cannot carry multiple nuclear warheads, and can only be launched from fixed launch towers or silos. In addition to the DF-5, China also deploys some DF-4 long-range ballistic missile, which was tailored mainly for targets in former Soviet Union.

 

[Scoobnfl]

It seems this could get out of control.

ya gotta love the lefties.


ahhhh bless Jimmy Carters cowardly little heart, he sold out the millions in Taiwan, did nothing to help those in Cambodia, gave the Panama Canal away and let a bunch of jihadi scumbags overrun our embassy and hold 77 of our citizens hotage for 444 days.

what a weak A$$ed puke.

I must admit when he was on stage at the DNC talking about a stronger America, I had the best laugh I've had in years.

 

[bliink]

ya gotta love the lefties.


ahhhh bless Jimmy Carters cowardly little heart, he sold out the millions in Taiwan, did nothing to help those in Cambodia, gave the Panama Canal away and let a bunch of jihadi scumbags overrun our embassy and hold 77 of our citizens hotage for 444 days.

what a weak A$$ed puke.

I must admit when he was on stage at the DNC talking about a stronger America, I had the best laugh I've had in years.

You need to sort out your attitude. Hardly any other members carry on like you are right now.