CNN does a piece on atheists

[Absinthe]

Friend, there are people which spend their lives doing that - priests. Though I'm no priest, and have a very bad charisma to explain it all (That's why i think i'll not manage handling a debate on my own).

Priests do not analyze the Bible. They parrot it and they sermonize. Some will even go so far as to contradict it outright (ie. preaching acceptance of homosexuals).

If you can not or will not identify and explain the meaningful larger context of these individual excerpts that you argue exists, then you are not in a position to correct others. Not participating in debates period would be my advice.

 

[Walter]

Priests do not analyze the Bible. They parrot it and they sermonize. Some will even go so far as to contradict it outright (ie. preaching acceptance of homosexuals).

think you should hide instead of parroting such nonesence. Agreed on homosexuals though, but like people they aren't all like that.

If you can not or will not identify and explain the meaningful larger context of these individual excerpts that you argue exists, then you are not in a position to correct others. Not participating in debates period would be my advice.

I've already told a lot, but i can't write answers that are more than 1 meter long, and you bark whenever i give a link to some answer. Faith is too much of a serious question that needs a lot more educated believer than i. That's why religion is a good subject to have in many schools i think, though it should be strictly optional in places where it isn't yet.

 

[Geogaddi]

Are you saying that religion belongs in (public? D schools because it makes no sense?

 

[Walter]

I'm saying that religion should always be an optional subject for students to choose.

 

[DeusExMachina]

I still don't understand half the crap he's saying.

 

[Walter]

then you're just dumb i guess.

 

[mortiz]

I'm saying that religion should always be an optional subject for students to choose.

I believe that religion should be taught in schools because unfortunately it's a fact of life. However at the moment Religion isn't an "optional extra" particularly in American schools, children are made to pray at school and made to say the pledge which contains references to God. I think that's wrong.

 

[Cole]

I'm saying that religion should always be an optional subject for students to choose.

We already go through all the religions and what they believe in school.

Schols educates. School already educates on what religions are practiced around the world, and information about them.

 

[delusional]

I'm saying that religion should always be an optional subject for students to choose.

even though that destroys the first amendment? shame on you...

 

[DeusExMachina]

I believe that religion should be taught in schools because unfortunately it's a fact of life. However at the moment Religion isn't an "optional extra" particularly in American schools, children are made to pray at school and made to say the pledge which contains references to God. I think that's wrong.

What're you talking about? They took prayer out of schools over 50 years ago and you don't have to say the pledge. I don't.

 

[Ennui]

I'm saying that religion should always be an optional subject for students to choose.

It is. We have courses about religion in our school here... and I admire the teacher who's willing to tread that minefield, because it necessarily has to be taught from an atheist/skeptic standpoint so that all the religions are evaluated equally. I transferred out of World Religions because the class was too easy (I took an independent study instead) but the two weeks I was in there, there were numerous shouting matches.

Mostly between me (I'm an outspoken atheist) and another uber-christian girl whose father is a pastor.

I believe that religion should be taught in schools because unfortunately it's a fact of life. However at the moment Religion isn't an "optional extra" particularly in American schools, children are made to pray at school and made to say the pledge which contains references to God. I think that's wrong.

Not true at all. Guided prayer is not allowed (the teacher can't lead the class in prayer, though individual students are welcome to pray if they want), and it's only mandatory to hear the Pledge of Allegiance... it's up to the student's discretion if they want to say it or not (they lead it over the loudspeaker, usually about 90% of the class follows along, I'm always one of the ones sitting down looking bored).

 

[mastapenguin]

Christianity:
Our material lives are governed by the innefable plan of God. All our uncertainties will be answered with continued faith in His existence

Aethism:
Our material lives are governed by the infinitely complex laws of Science. All our uncertainties will be answered with continued Research.


I appreciate that Aethism has its appeal to a group of people whos common interaction with religious groups involve pamphlets and moral diatribes. Nonetheless, it is a belief system. You live in the Faith and certainty that Science will lead Humanity onward and upward, while explaining everything we don't understand.

And that's fine. Go ahead and believe in something that has many more "miracles" going for it nowadays. Honestly, belief should be something personal, an inner certainty that gives people the strength to do what they believe is right. I won't take issue until you start hurting others with it.

 

[Absinthe]

think you should hide instead of parroting such nonesence. Agreed on homosexuals though, but like people they aren't all like that.

MAKE A POINT.

I've already told a lot, but i can't write answers that are more than 1 meter long, and you bark whenever i give a link to some answer.

Because the links you give have no thought of your own behind them. Hell, it's quite possible that you don't even understand them, because you've never made a single attempt to explain or integrate them into an argument of your own.

What you do is, at the very least, completely lazy and shows an absence of any attempt to seriously argue even in the most remote sense. If you're not going to put any effort into your points, then there's no reason to expect anybody to read them, let alone consider them valid. Knowingly or not, you do nothing except insult the intelligence of everybody here by not only being half-assed, but doing so with an air of such profound comfort that it seems you are deliberately trying to be ignorant.

Faith is too much of a serious question that needs a lot more educated believer than i. That's why religion is a good subject to have in many schools i think, though it should be strictly optional in places where it isn't yet.

Translation: By my very own standards, I'm qualified to comment on jack shit. However, I still expect people to come around to my way of thinking through some divine revelation via a URL.

 

[Ennui]

Atheism has nothing to do with science. Many atheists share that view, but not all. Atheism is merely a belief that God does not exist - or the lack of a belief that God exists, depending on how you want to define it, but semantics are just a waste of time here.

Atheism does not negate the possibility of spirituality.

 

[mortiz]

What're you talking about? They took prayer out of schools over 50 years ago and you don't have to say the pledge. I don't.

I got that from the CNN piece posted in this thread about a school that were devoting class time to "Bible study and prayer". Surely they were therefore breaking the "rules"? Are you sure it doesn't have anything to do with which school you actually go to? I'm sure a school in a much more conservative state would be more religiously orientated? They may not be "forced" to pray, or say the pledge, I mean, how could they? But children are rather easily led and most will just go along with it. They're not old enough to develop their own opinions on what they're saying, and the fact that refusing to do so will often lead to them being ostracized. It'd be interesting to hear someone's opinions on this from a conservative state.

 

[Ennui]

It's federal, what we're saying, the states can't override it (as it's a Constitutional issue, which means the Supreme Court's mandate = law).

They were probably referring to a private school.

 

[Absinthe]

Christianity:
Our material lives are governed by the innefable plan of God. All our uncertainties will be answered with continued faith in His existence

Aethism:
Our material lives are governed by the infinitely complex laws of Science. All our uncertainties will be answered with continued Research.


I appreciate that Aethism has its appeal to a group of people whos common interaction with religious groups involve pamphlets and moral diatribes. Nonetheless, it is a belief system. You live in the Faith and certainty that Science will lead Humanity onward and upward, while explaining everything we don't understand.

And that's fine. Go ahead and believe in something that has many more "miracles" going for it nowadays. Honestly, belief should be something personal, an inner certainty that gives people the strength to do what they believe is right. I won't take issue until you start hurting others with it.

What the ****?

Atheism has nothing to do with science. Here we go again with people ascribing extraneous bullshit to a very simple concept so people can treat it on par with intellectual mind****ery like religion. Nice try, but no dice.

Atheism is an absence of god belief. Please read that sentence and let it soak into your mind for a few seconds. I know it might be difficult to shed all those previous ridiculous preconceptions that drifted into your consciousness, but that is what atheism is. It has no pledge to science or even rational thinking. While ideally atheism would be the product of reasonable skepticism and logical thought, it is entirely possible - for instance - for somebody to not believe in a god while simultaneously thinking that martians are poisoning his yogurt.

Atheism is not what's treasured. Rational thought is. Atheism is just a byproduct. On a related note, this is why people who point to Mao and Stalin as perpetrators of "the evils of atheism" are retarded. An atheist that deprives and murders millions for a fantasy ideology is no better than a theist that kills and converts entire nations for his Lord and Savior. They are both deluded, highly irrational psychos.

Secondly, "belief in Science" is one of the most silly things I have ever heard. And anybody who touts it should be ashamed of their dishonesty, particularly when you misrepresent what science is. Science is a human-made abstract concept that admits its own fallibility. It has never claimed to one day clear up all uncertainties. The scientific process is an empirical logic-based method of attempting to make sense of available data. It is ever-changing, self-correcting, and works through substantiation and verifiability. There is no element of faith involved unless you completely devalue the word.

 

[Ennui]

Amen! Irony intended.

 

[mortiz]

It's federal, what we're saying, the states can't override it (as it's a Constitutional issue, which means the Supreme Court's mandate = law).

They were probably referring to a private school.

Then how come in the CNN piece they say "Public Elementry School"? Check it out yourself.

 

[Ennui]

I can't, I'm at work, but any sort of mandatory or guided prayer (or time specifically devoted to one particular religion) IS against the law, so there's some sort of misinterpretation going on here.

 

[mortiz]

I can't, I'm at work, but any sort of mandatory or guided prayer (or time specifically devoted to one particular religion) IS against the law, so there's some sort of misinterpretation going on here.

Then if this school really has broken the law shouldn't they be reprimanded or something?

 

[Slacker]

I can't, I'm at work, but any sort of mandatory or guided prayer (or time specifically devoted to one particular religion) IS against the law, so there's some sort of misinterpretation going on here.

Are you sure? The FCA at my school does this prayer thing around the flag poll (which, note, is right where everyone gets dropped off) every month, and they get away with it.

Plus, fun fact, Seperation of Church and State is NOT in the constitution!

 

[Absinthe]

Slight rant. This is in regard to the sentiment expressed at the end of mastapenguin's post.

While I agree that personal religious belief that doesn't hurt anybody is acceptable, relevant examples of such a thing are very few and far between in today's world. This is hampered further by a lack of consensus of what constitutes "hurting others" beyond the obvious.

You may think in private that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed marriage because of scripture. While this seems harmless, such a view will express itself and manifest consequences when the time comes to vote. What is misleadingly painted as a benign personal thought turns into a state-sanctioned discrimination against minorities. Similarly, the "let bygones be bygones" attitude towards opinions on stem cell research can and will lead to the death and disfiguration of thousands of people that this promising field of medical science could have helped.

Beliefs are, more often than not, actions waiting to happen. So while you may not be physically clubbing people to death with your Bible, you'd be very shortsighted if you thought the very harboring of these ideas have no impact beyond yourself.

Plus, fun fact, Seperation of Church and State is NOT in the constitution!

Neither does "right to privacy" or "right to a fair trial".

The absence of such exact wording does not mean an absence of the idea itself.

 

[Walter]

MAKE A POINT.

You've probably never talked to a priest or haven't even made one step inside the church.

Translation: By my very own standards, I'm qualified to comment on jack shit. However, I still expect people to come around to my way of thinking through some divine revelation via a URL.

And you're a guy that can have half of his claims labeled as "bullshit".
More than that, i think you're pretending to be short minded.

 

[Ennui]

Seperation of church and state is still a constitutional issue; I believe the reasoning for it is that to truely have freedom of religion the state cannot interfere positively or negatively, and thus the two must be seperated. It was also the intention of the Framers, who came from a Europe dominated by the Catholic church. Furthermore, since the Supreme Court has ruled to seperate church and state, it carries the same weight and finality as if it were included in the Constitution, and will continue in that manner unless it is overturned in a later SC case, which is not going to happen.

The FCA also does that at my school, but they are not part of the school administration. Religious student organizations are allowed to organize prayer, because it's voluntary, and they're not employees of the government.

 

[Ennui]

You've probably never talked to a priest or haven't even made one step inside the church.

I was raised CHristian and attended church occasionally as a younger kid and I've done both of those... and I still agree with about everything that Absinthe has said thus far in this thread.

And you're a guy that can have half of his claims labeled as "bullshit".

I suppose you just declined to comment on them anyway, then? This sort of statement is meaningless and has no value unless you actually get specific about it. I haven't seen a single claim he's made that could be labelled as "bullshit", or really as anything other than a very reasonable, logical, human conclusion.

 

[Absinthe]

You've probably never talked to a priest or haven't even made one step inside the church.

I used to be a Catholic. So how about you actually make a post that is of worth.

Regardless, this kind of reasoning is ludicrous. The very idea that I first need to be a member of the Church in order to criticize it is akin to saying I need to slaughter Jews wholesale before I can judge the Nazis. If your religious beliefs can't stand up to external scrutiny, then that's a testament to how frail they are.

And you're a guy that can have half of his claims labeled as "bullshit".
More than that, i think you're pretending to be short minded.

What are you talking about? Are you even trying to make sense here? Is there some severe learning/comprehension disability you haven't told us about? If there was, I'd be inclined to be far more sympathetic instead of treating you like an idiot.

 

[Ennui]

I've never understood how people can argue in a manner that's anything other than the complete breakdown and annihilation of the opposing side's views, but apparently Walter (and his ilk, which number in the multitudes) is completely comfortable with the idea of just ignoring reason and spouting their own nonsensical ideas as proof.

 

[Walter]

I used to be a Catholic. So how about you actually make a post that is of worth.

I guess you never strived to know the truth that much.

Regardless, this kind of "takes one to know one" reasoning is ludicrous. The very idea that I first need to be a member of the Church in order to criticize it is akin to saying I need to slaughter Jews wholesale before I can judge the Nazis. If your religious beliefs can't stand up to external scrutiny, then that's a testament to how frail they are.

Of course it matters here, you've said they don't study the bible, where the hell have you picked that up from?

 

[Stigmata]

I guess you never strived to know the truth that much.

So what's it like being infallible?

 

[Ennui]

I guess you never strived to know the truth that much.

Actually, I'm more of the opinion that he strove to know the truth enough to realize it doesn't have anything to do with Christianity or God.

Of course it matters here, you've said they don't study the bible, where the hell have you picked that up from?

I don't know what you're referring to, but I'm sure you're taking it out of context.

 

[Absinthe]

I guess you never strived to know the truth that much.

Then take five minutes of your time to state what the truth is.

I'm most certain that any attempt at obtaining knowledge rests outside of the Church, particularly since it doesn't help when your religion embraces falling back on God by default in the absence of certainty.

Of course it matters here, you've said they don't study the bible, where the hell have you picked that up from?

I'm having trouble figuring out what exactly you're saying here in reference to the part of my post you quoted. Elaborate.

 

[DeusExMachina]

Yeah, religious oriented clubs are allowed and they're allowed to do as they please. My school's got a Christian and Jewish club. I was thinking of starting an Atheist/Agnostic club, but we already have a philosophy club so it'd just be the same thing.

EDIT: This is to the FCA/school prayer thing

 

[Walter]

Absinthe, you start finding the truth once you look a bit closer than you do. Sam Harris pointed to Luke 19:27 but it's like pointing to the sentence where it is said that "Judas went and hang himself" and then quoting Luke 10:37 "Go and do the same." Does Jesus tell us to go and hang ourselves?
And you continue to find the truth by not being deluded as you have been.

 

[Ennui]

What is the truth? Are you saying that it's dictated by the Bible?

 

[delusional]

ummm walter i agree with everything absinthe said and i used to be a devout christian. I went knocking on doors trying to convert people went to christian camp twice a year and unlike most people at my church i actually listened to the pastor. I probably know more than about the bible then most people, except maybe mecha since he says he read the whole bible, and i only read most of it. I searched for the truth, and studied the bible and still came to the conclusion that it is false. I really think you are deluded,no offense there, i used to be deluded and believed whatever the church said. For example, when i was taking classes on how to convert people one of the verses we used was
"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that?and shudder." James 2:19

we used this to show how easy it is to believe in God and that you should have faith.
I never actually learned the context of the verse, I just unknowingly used it. But, when i actually read the context(long after i de-converted) myself i learned that it was trying to say that faith alone doesnt save us. but did i know that i was using a verse to prove to you to have faith. No. In actuality the verse did the opposite

That is the situation i think you are in. Where you just believe whatever the pastor says and not question it. so i inquire you to objectively study the bible alone without any other influence.

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Sam Harris pointed to Luke 19:27 but it's like pointing to the sentence where it is said that "Judas went and hang himself" and then quoting Luke 10:37 "Go and do the same." Does Jesus tell us to go and hang ourselves?

Luke 19:27 is the last line of the Parable of the Talents.

The Parable of Talents is a metaphorical story, told by Jesus, about himself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_talents

The basic moral of the story is that you must use your God-given abilities to please Jesus, by following his laws.
If you do not, you will lose everything.

"For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him."
Luke 19:26

The story is about slaves (humans) who are given money (life) by their king (god). Those who invested their money (life) in the bank (christian faith) earned interest, and the king rewarded them by giving them access to his castle (heaven).
The man who hid his money, because he dislikes the king (god), has his money (life) taken away, and he is thrown outside into the darkness (hell).

The parable ends with the words of Jesus, describing exactly what people will lose if they do not follow him.

This last line is not a metaphor:

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."
Luke 19:27

The moral of the story is that non-christians must be killed, because they are wastes of life who displease Jesus.

So what did Sam Harris get wrong, exactly?


Also, in reference to the earlier discussion about thoughtcrimes, you have no problem with Jesus declaring thoughtcrimes punishable by death?

 

[Walter]

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that?and shudder." James 2:19(...)
I never actually learned the context of the verse, I just unknowingly used it. But, when i actually read the context(long after i de-converted) myself i learned that it was trying to say that faith alone doesnt save us.

You misunderstood. The fact that you just know God exists won't save you, not faith in Him.

Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.Mathew 7:21

That is the situation i think you are in. Where you just believe whatever the pastor says and not question it. so i inquire you to objectively study the bible alone without any other influence.

Whoa, whoa. I don't blindly believe in what ever the pastor says, we've got many nuts in this world to watch our step at. I listen to what one has to say, to what tips he is able to show me, in case if i'm going the wrong way and then i check the bible to see if that matches up.

 

[Walter]

The moral of the story is that non-christians must die, because they are wastes of life who displease God.

Yes, but they've got their life to repent. And the term "look! there went a good atheist to hell!" is just as much false as to say "look! there went a saint to heaven that lived a sinless life!", as there is no sinless man. Our only way to God is through His son, none other. And it depends on us whether we get deluded and just "die" or we die in Christ.

 

[Solaris]

You misunderstood. The fact that you just know God exists won't save you, not faith in Him.

Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.Mathew 7:21

Thats exactly it. Jesus teaches us that just having good in our hearts is not enough! We must follow Gods will! We Must Stone homosexuals!