Communists

[PvtRyan]

*facepalm*

Well OK, agricultural/industrial. Manual, unschooled labor no less.

 

[Sheepo]

They're a buncha' inbred, uncivilized commie bastards.

 

[Krynn72]

Well OK, agricultural/industrial. Manual, unschooled labor no less.

Where are you getting this assumption from?

 

[Hobostomp]

Where are you getting this assumption from?

Probably from common sense. Anyone who went to school knows they want as much money as possible.

 

[Warped]

never met one but I'm pretty sure people around the globe are exactly like their own governments

 

[PvtRyan]

Where are you getting this assumption from?

It was a response to Solaris, who said that in a communist society unemployment wouldn't be a problem because the state would always have work for you. This works fine for unschooled manual labor, because it doesn't really matter what at what conveyor belt you put two screws into something, but this just doesn't fly for skilled work with years of education behind it.

It's pretty obvious that communism stems from a different era, where boss - employee relations were completely different than what they are today, and more akin to owner - slave. It makes no sense at all in a mostly service-providing economy.

 

[CrazyHarij]

This just proves that communism was an idea meant for an agricultural society, of manual, unschooled labor. Developed countries haven't been production driven for a long time, but service driven. Yay, factory jobs for everyone, all to serve The Great Leader!

Brainwashed, you're not even talking about communism.

Yeah, and believe it or not: the world is better than it has ever been and is only improving.

Those who've heard about the climate, the third world, the financial crisis would beg to differ.

Probably from common sense. Anyone who went to school knows they want as much money as possible.

Why exactly?

Well OK, agricultural/industrial. Manual, unschooled labor no less.

LOL

I'm pretty sure people around the globe are exactly like their own governments

Double LOL

It's pretty obvious that communism stems from a different era, where boss - employee relations were completely different than what they are today, and more akin to owner - slave. It makes no sense at all in a mostly service-providing economy.

Communism is an ideology, not a historic state of government.

 

[nipples]

never met one but I'm pretty sure people around the globe are exactly like their own governments

You just proved your own point.

 

[repiV]

No I didnt. Re-read what I quoted and what I said.

It's shit on paper too, as it reduces the individual to a number whose sole purpose of life is to be a member of the masses and is supposed to feel and act like everyone else.


Replace the word "masses" with "rich few" and you've got Capitalism.

So according to you, the sole purpose of life in a capitalist system is to be one of the rich few and to feel and act like everyone else. This is markedly different how...?

Why would everyone be poor? I'm not talking about having the entire earth as one communist nation, but a successful communist nation that is actually doing well would have all of its citizens living well also.

A communist nation would be completely uncompetitive, and would not be even remotely successful.

I admit, I am no expert on communism or what specifically it entails, but I definitely dont think that it requires every citizen to have a manual labor job. That wouldn't make any sense whatsoever.

Since you've eliminated all competition and there is only one brand and type of every product - the state version, most white-collar business would disappear overnight.

I dont see how this is relevent.

You said I would be happy in a communist world because I'm content with an "average lifestyle". Not so, firstly because people's definitions of average differ, and also because the things I like to do wouldn't be accessible in a communist society anyway. Ooooh, state-manufactured sportsbikes. Not a particularly exciting prospect, even if it ever happened which it wouldn't. In fact you can pretty much kiss goodbye to any fast or exciting vehicle, and anything else in any other area of life which could be considered "unnecessary".

In our capitalist world you earn your living by working for money with which to pay for the things you need. In a communist world, you earn your living by working for the things you need. Its not a whole lot different.

It's massively different, in a multitude of important ways. For a start, I work for the things I want as well as the things I need. You can survive off a surprisingly small amount of money if you really have to, but it's not much fun. In communism your needs would be dictated by the state, not you, and the leisure industry as we know it would simply not exist. Good luck if you have a hobby or minority interest, especially one that's expensive or frowned upon by busybodies.

There's a fundamental difference in the fact that you don't actually have to work to earn money in a capitalist society. It's merely the most popular way, and then you have a massive choice of ways to work for your money. Really clever people who are motivated to do so set up systems that generate themselves an income without having to do any work on an ongoing basis. Communism isn't "working for the things you need", it's a system where the entire population is totally reliant upon welfare payouts from the state. A system where everyone is a slave to the government. That's the very definition of oppression, there is no freedom there at all as everything you do is at the mercy of your masters. Anyone who thinks this is either a form of freedom, or a good thing is a fool.

Judging solely from what you've said in this thread, it seems like you'd be happy in either form of society. Like Monkey said, capitalism and communism are both enemies to the individual. Capitalism simply caters more towards the people who want to rise up above others, which you have said twice now that you dont want to do.

How is capitalism an enemy to the individual? It empowers people - there is a level of opportunity out there that's limited only by your motivation, talent and imagination. Our entire society is shaped by the actions and desires of individual citizens, rather than of the state. Do you think we would have a free internet under communist rule, or Half Life 2?

If you're going to bleet on about big corporations etc etc, that's more the fault of technology than capitalism. To sustain the quality of life and level of technology that we enjoy today requires a colossal infrastructure sustained by large organisations - no way around that. And then, you're ignoring the fact that some people will always be more powerful than others. Ultimately, power is the only resource that truly matters in our world, and that will always be the case. Trying to equalise everyone through communism is an utterly idiotic way of dealing with this, because then you've just centralised ALL power in the hands of the state! Capitalism allows people to empower themselves, subjugate to noone. That some people are more successful at this than others is neither here nor there.

Like I said, I'm not talking about a global communist nation. I dont know where you got this idea from. A communist nation wouldn't give its wealth to other nations.

A communist nation wouldn't have any wealth to give away.

Again, I am no expert on the topic, but I dont see why a communist civilian couldnt have goals and aspirations which they could attain. Perhaps there are not as many as a capitalist society, but that doesnt mean they couldnt have any control.

Your life, your future and the direction of society would be entirely shaped by the vision of the state. You can kiss goodbye to coming up with a great idea and then going off to turn it into reality for all to enjoy. You can kiss goodbye to luxuries, and variety, and innovation especially in non-essential areas. You wouldn't have a GeForce card under communist rule, assuming you even had a PC.

You can't prove that.

Centralised power is always the enemy of liberty, and that's ever more true if that's absolute power. Isn't it rather naive, to put it politely, to hand absolute power over your finances, your future and your life to the state and then just entrust them to do the right thing? And isn't it rather immature to desire that in the first place? It's a throwback to childhood, an admission that you're incapable of standing on your own two feet. That you need the state as parents.

A key part of communist beliefs is that there would always be abundant resources, because everything would be so more efficient.

Then those beliefs are nonsense, because communism is the most inefficient economic system in existence by a country mile.

Right now there is a sizeable amount of people unemployed, doing no work at all. Under communism, these people would always have access to jobs by the state, or would get nothing.

So you'd have the situation as engineered by the current scum in power, where useless people are given useless overpaid jobs in the civil service at our expense just for the sake of shoring up the numbers. Only on an utterly monumental scale.

There would be no unemployment benefit as there would always be employment available.

If that employment serves no purpose, and the pay assumedly is far greater than unemployment benefit then how is this preferable?

Right now of those employed, how many do something that actually produces anything usable or ever helpful. Advertising, insurance, markets, stock brokers... so many people do jobs that just would not be nessacary in a communist economy.

How exciting and varied do you think life would be if every single thing is produced by agents of the state? And the quality of said products would be abysmal.

Also, of those that do work in say retail or whatever, how much of that is nessacary, my home town does not need 4 major supermarkets, if one of them was made slightly bigger, the other 3 could be closed down and that would save so much labour.

So you have no choice and no competition. You can only get one brand of anything, and it will evolve very slowly if at all, and never driven by market demands. You're doing a great job of describing a grey, faceless dystopia here.

Opponents and proponents of socialism, read this:
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/hist_texts/wilde_soul.htm

It doesn't load.

Are you ****ing kidding me, viper? Have you looked at the state of the world lately?

The state of the world where I live is pretty damn good. If you really wanted to improve it however, the first thing you would do is tell the government to **** off and stop interfering in everything. Beyond this country, the state of the world is none of my concern.

Where the **** do you get these ridiculous ideas from? What the **** do your english schools teach you about communism and capitalism?

Nothing at all. Why, do Swedish schools practice brainwashing these days?

"Controlling your own destiny" ****ing LOL. In modern society, money controls your destiny.

In ANY society, money controls your destiny - it doesn't matter whether it's communist, capitalist or anything in between. That will ALWAYS be the case so long as we have finite resources. The difference is that capitalism a) generates more wealth for everyone and b) gives you the tools to earn your own.

Commies need to think before they open their mouths ffs.

The main thing about communism is that as an ideology, it is a utopia, hence not actualized. "No true scotsman" is a lazy cop-out.

It's a dystopia.

Tell that to the unemployed

The world doesn't owe you a living.

Capitalism is an enemy to humanity.

So life in Sweden is horrible and oppressive, is it? Or is that just a load of emo bollocks. Emigrate to Cuba or North Korea if you would prefer.

Communism states that the individual should have what he/she needs so that he can do what he/she wants.

So what planet do you live on where it's possible to give everyone what they need for them to do what they want?

 

[DEATHMASTER]

I'm for real communism (Marxism I think its called, haven't recalled this shit for real since high school), as in the kind we can never achieve cuz we're too retarded and greedy and shit.

 

[PvtRyan]

Brainwashed, you're not even talking about communism.

Why am I brainwashed? And by who? I already responded to that:

It was a response to Solaris, who said that in a communist society unemployment wouldn't be a problem because the state would always have work for you. This works fine for unschooled manual labor, because it doesn't really matter what at what conveyor belt you put two screws into something, but this just doesn't fly for skilled work with years of education behind it.

There is no "worker class" today like there was in the early 20th century. Those of the "worker class" today are often well educated, performing office work and have specialized themselves into some area, you can't just assign them to a different factory. The whole idea that a communist state would be able to efficiently manage that is laughable.

Those who've heard about the climate

What we deal with now is a legacy from past times, but today we actually care about the climate. There was no way we would have done that a 100 years ago. You can't expect our past of dirty industry to change overnight. But it will happen, unless you really think that in a 100 years we will still be using oil for our energy, hence my claim that we are improving, moving forward.

Also, I have no reason to think that a communist state would be cleaner.

, the third world,

The gap between poor and the middle class is getting smaller rather than bigger.

The third world has a higher life expectancy than ever, lower child mortality and never had a better diet. All this without a single helpful contribution by communism. I guess it must have been capitalism then, eh?

the financial crisis would beg to differ.

Boohoo, we're going from super-rich to slightly less super-rich. The crisis is harsh, but in the end a good thing. However, I like that the financial crisis can be blamed on capitalism, but I'm not allowed to blame the blunders of "communist states" on communism.

All in all, you can't deny that there is a global trend forward. What gives?

Communism is an ideology, not a historic state of government.

So? I made no such claim. But do you think the state of the world at that time had no influence on for the formation of that ideology? And that state of the world is largely irrelevant nowadays.

I should add btw that I don't like saying I'm for capitalism because of the connotations attached to that term, but I'm definitely for the free market.