Complaining and praise about VALVe goes here

[jabberwock95]

"Valve does not owe us anything."

Let's examine that shall we? Where did valve get the money to make HL2? That's right, from the sales of HL1. Who bought HL1? Yes, the fans. Why is valve making HL2? To make money. Who will supply that money? The fans.

Valve are out to make money. They can't do that unless people buy their game!

If you went into McDonalds and asked for a burger, would you be pleased if the ass in the plastic hat said "STFU, McDonalds doesn't owe you a burger! I'm not selling you anything. GTFO!"


Edit: I noticed this thread has been unstickied. Any particular reason?

 

[Gunner]

"Valve does not owe us anything."

Let's examine that shall we? Where did valve get the money to make HL2? That's right, from the sales of HL1. Who bought HL1? Yes, the fans. Why is valve making HL2? To make money. Who will supply that money? The fans.

Valve are out to make money. They can't do that unless people buy their game!

If you went into McDonalds and asked for a burger, would you be pleased if the ass in the plastic hat said "STFU, McDonalds doesn't owe you a burger! I'm not selling you anything. GTFO!"

I don't want to argue with you but your example of a McDonalds employee refusing to sell you a hamburger makes no sense.

First of all, you haven't bought HL2 yet, and by the way those ATI vouchers don't mean squat because it's ATI who promised you a copy so technically they buy the game for you.

Secondly, just because you bought one of their products five years ago does not mean Valve "owe" you a copy of HL2.

Thirdly what kind of a fan are you anyway? I bought HL, OPFOR, HL Platinum Pack, and CZ and I don't think Valves "owes" me anything.

And let's admit that Valve indeed "owes" you something... what would that be? and more importantly why do you keep complaining about it? because it has been delayed? then I'm sorry but there's nothing you can do about it, and bitching never helped anybody.

 

[PvtRyan]

"Valve does not owe us anything."

Let's examine that shall we? Where did valve get the money to make HL2? That's right, from the sales of HL1. Who bought HL1? Yes, the fans. Why is valve making HL2? To make money. Who will supply that money? The fans.

Valve are out to make money. They can't do that unless people buy their game!

If you went into McDonalds and asked for a burger, would you be pleased if the ass in the plastic hat said "STFU, McDonalds doesn't owe you a burger! I'm not selling you anything. GTFO!"

You spent money on HL1. I think that's something we all agree on. Yes, you gave Valve money. Was it a charity donation? Didn't you receive anything in return? Oh, that's right, a little game called 'Half-Life'. Did the support stop then? No, I recall 6 years of support. That's how that silly 'buying' thingy works, you give them money, and they give you a product, and then their debts are settled.

Your McDonald's example is flawed. What we're doing now would be like going to the McDonald's, ordering a hamburger, and while the ass in the plastic head is preparing your hamburger, start shouting at them half way in the proces 'Where are the tomatoes on my burger? I want some GODDAMN TOMATOES on my GODDAMN BURGER!! Hey dude, what the f*ck are you doing with my burger, you know shit of making burgers! You know what your doing to me? I'm a faithful costumer, I bought a burger here, six years ago. So you owe me big time pal!!'

You haven't paid shit for HL2 yet, so you get to say shit about the game, or the development proces. The don't owe you, they don't owe you anything more than the supermarket where I bought something yesterday. You bought a product from them, you gave money for that product. Money, the supermarket is going to invest in other products, which you have the option to buy when they're in the store.
I have nothing to do with the proces that is between me buying a product, and the next product hitting the shelves. Nothing. The money isn't yours anymore, it's from the store now, you have traded it for the product. If the manager of the supermarket wants to buy 15" black dildo's from it, let him! It. Is. Not. Your. Money. Anymore.

If Valve wants to cancel HL2 and work on a The Sims 2 expansion, well, it's their damn choice.

 

[Jackal hit]

for all of you whiney spoiled children who preordered halflife2, keep in mind that you didn't preorder from valve, you preordered from a vendor, who already has a quota for the game, they will be given that many copies of the game. you've paid money to the vendor so far, no one else. perhaps, instead, you should bitch and moan at EB games? or Gamestop or any of those places... tell them the same things you tell us here. seriously, do it. more power to you if you do that.

Spoiler

they will laugh at you though

 

[UndeadScottsman]

Valve does not owe you jack all concerning Half-Life 2.

You bought Half-Life 1? GOOD FOR YOU? You know what Valve gave you for your 50 bucks? HALF-LIFE 1!!! AND support of HL1 that's lasted six years and is still going. You got what you paid for, STFU.

You bought a video card for HL2? So it's Valve's fault you were retarded and didn't wait until at least a gold announcement before you bought a several hundred dollar piece of equipment for a single game? Plus it's not like your video card is useless without Half-Life 2. You got a perfectly good video card for your purchase, play some other games with it. Go play Doom 3 or something...

You preordered Half-Life 2? Unless the company you're buying from actually charged you money, you haven't paid for a damn thing yet. (And if they DID charge you money, take it up with the company you pre-ordered from, who take your money before even having a product to sell)

Half-Life 2 preload is taking up useless room on your HD? Then DELETE IT!!! Why you preloaded it in the first place is beyond me; the preload IS a volentary thing, you know. Don't like it? Don't do it. For all the people who don't want to fight tooth and nail to download it through Steam come release; it's an excellent option. Lord knows any HD worth it's salt these days can handle a few gigs of space being taken up. If you can't; you might want to think about cleaning out your HD.

Now is Valve perfect? Nope, not in the least. What with the handful of missed release dates and keeping up the September 30th release story until a week before the date; which is far far beyond believeable that they wouldn't notice until then that the game was going to miss the date; especially since we're almost a year later. This is a valid complaint. The September 30th last second announcment was a moronic and scummy thing to do; and Valve should just shut up about any further release dates, I agree. Ultimately though, why the hell should you, or anyone else, care enough to actually get angry about it??

Seriously, if Half-Life 2 being delayed affects your life in any way, shape or form that you have valid reason to get concerned or pissed over it, you REALLY need to sort out your priorities. Instead of waiting hand and foot for every scrap of information; do what I do.. ANYTHING ELSE. Visit this forum maybe once a day (Or better yet, less), don't live your life solely between news updates. Trust me on this; both you, and the internet community at large, will be better off. If you can't tear yourself away from the computer, at least check out some different video games.. http://www.bluesnews.com is a great game news website.. Not only can you keep up to date on games OTHER than Half-Life 2; you'll still be informed about Half-Life 2 going gold

Also, Valve accidently, and then later intentionally, leaking the Half-Life 2 script... Yeah, I'm still scratching my head on that one.. But, like I said.. go do something else. Don't live your life on HL2 forums, and you'll be much less likely to run into spoilers. I haven't been spoiled about anything I didn't dig up myself in the Alpha.

Which brings my last point.. Valve getting hacked.. Stop complaining about it PLEASE; not only was it almost a year ago, it's not like they planned for all their hard work to get slapped onto the internet for friggen' free. Shit happens, people; let it go.

Sincerely,
Jeremy Dunn

 

[killahsin-[CE]]

Jabber while I agree with you. Thats just very backwards thinking. In 98 someone buys a game, the developer supports that game engine big time for 5 years, almost 6 now. That original 49.99 or whatever someone paid, makes that developer owe you? Even after those 5 years? Thats a very open ended theory that can go tumbling down a slippery slope. Now surely one can say on a massive scale VALVe owes the gamers in their community since the gamer is the reason they are where they are. The issue is that thats shortsighted. It's more than the gamer, its the gamer, the develoeprs hard work, the community that evolves around it designing mods, the patches that are released. The features added to the engine for the mods that seriously need the changes to the core.dll files. The full revamping of the netcode by yahn n co....The server admins.....Theres just so many DIFFERENT aspects to why the game was a success. So while we are saying that valve owes us, we are taking all credit away from a developer who spent 6 years of their life doing what they do best. We are than giving ourselves all this credit.

Thats my issue with this all. HL1 delayed a year doom 3 delayed over a year(1 year and a few months to be exact). Duke nukem delayed over 5 years? TF2 delayed over 5 years? Elders scrolls:morrowind 5 almost 6 years to develop. Bards tale, almost 20 years to do the sequel....

If VALVe were "solely" about the money and not about the fans. HL2 would have came out in 2k1. TF2 would ahve came out in 97/98. We would be on hl3 and tf3 now with cs2 and so forth. Developers that are out for money, are the ones whom milk the cow wholeheartedly. And usually this isn't even a developers decision but a publishers decision to milk the cow it is.

 

[Xenome]

I agree with the topic starter.

Valve is the most fan dedicated game developer in the world..

they answer hundreds of emails personally, they listen VERY good to the community while making their game, etc.

They do everything with the best intentions, and gabe newell is a good guy

They have made some BIG mistakes like leaking the hl story in cs:s files, but they have done so much more good things..

 

[Kangy]

DAMNIT, INTERPLAY YUO OWE ME KINGPIN 2!!!!!1ONE

Oh wait, they don't owe me jack shit, apart from tech support while my warranty is valid.

 

[jabberwock95]

Wow, I sense a lot of anger.

I didn't actually say thay valve owes me a copy of HL2. I was just saying that some people seem to think that Valve does not need anything from the fans.

I haven't paid for HL2. I did get HL when I paid for it. But some people still think that Valve is making HL2 out of the goodness of their hearts. They. Want. Money.

You spent money on HL1. I think that's something we all agree on. Yes, you gave Valve money. Was it a charity donation? Didn't you receive anything in return? Oh, that's right, a little game called 'Half-Life'. Did the support stop then? No, I recall 6 years of support. That's how that silly 'buying' thingy works, you give them money, and they give you a product, and then their debts are settled.

I in no way said that I wanted anything else for that money. I said that if it wasn't for the fans buying HL, then HL2 would not be here.

]Jabber while I agree with you. Thats just very backwards thinking. In 98 someone buys a game, the developer supports that game engine big time for 5 years, almost 6 now. That original 49.99 or whatever someone paid, makes that developer owe you? Even after those 5 years?

OK, maybe I didn't make myself very clear. I did not mean that Valve owes me anything. What I did mean is that it is wrong to assume Valve does not have to cater to the community. People seem to think that Valve could get on without any fans, or that Valve could just scrap HL2 if they felt the community wasn't being nice enough to them.

We have Money. Valve has HL2. We want HL2. Valve wants Money. We swap Money for HL2. We Happy. Valve Happy. The End.

 

[poseyjmac]

undeadscotsman you just wasted much time writing that nice big post. priorities are subjective. people will get upset what they want to get upset about, and theres nothing YOU can do about it, and theres no amount of explaining that will change that.

try and realize that no one cares about you trying to justify valve and bash people who are complaining. once you realize it, maybe one of your priorities wont be wasting time typing out essays on a hl2 forum on why people should be like you. there is such irony in posts like yours that tell people to get a life or get priorities straight, it makes me laugh.

 

[UndeadScottsman]

undeadscotsman you just wasted much time writing that nice big post. priorities are subjective. people will get upset what they want to get upset about, and theres nothing YOU can do about it, and theres no amount of explaining that will change that.

try and realize that no one cares about you trying to justify valve and bash people who are complaining. once you realize it, maybe one of your priorities wont be wasting time typing out essays on a hl2 forum on why people should be like you. there is such irony in posts like yours that tell people to get a life or get priorities straight, it makes me laugh.

Took me like five or ten minutes to write that.. Plus I have a beer buzz so it's all good

Sincerely,
Jeremy Dunn

 

[jabberwock95]

If VALVe were "solely" about the money and not about the fans. HL2 would have came out in 2k1. TF2 would ahve came out in 97/98. We would be on hl3 and tf3 now with cs2 and so forth. Developers that are out for money, are the ones whom milk the cow wholeheartedly. And usually this isn't even a developers decision but a publishers decision to milk the cow it is.

Valve wants to make a good game, but they need money for it. No-one spends 40 million dollars and five years making a game if they don't want anything in return.

It's really a mutual thing. We can't get good games without Valve making them. Valve needs our money to make good games. Niether of us can get along without the other.

Valve does not 'owe' us a good game. We do not 'owe' them any money until we get a game. We have to wait for our game, they have to wait for their money. Neither of us is doing any better than the other.

 

[poseyjmac]

Took me like five or ten minutes to write that.. Plus I have a beer buzz so it's all good

Sincerely,
Jeremy Dunn

im just saying, if someone has puke coming up their throat from ingesting something their body didn't like, they are going to puke their guts out, no amount of talking will make it disappear. best thing to do is let people get the bad shit out of their system.

 

[jabberwock95]

Your McDonald's example is flawed. What we're doing now would be like going to the McDonald's, ordering a hamburger, and while the ass in the plastic head is preparing your hamburger, start shouting at them half way in the proces 'Where are the tomatoes on my burger? I want some GODDAMN TOMATOES on my GODDAMN BURGER!! Hey dude, what the f*ck are you doing with my burger, you know shit of making burgers! You know what your doing to me? I'm a faithful costumer, I bought a burger here, six years ago. So you owe me big time pal!!'

lol, I just read that. But I wasn't complaining at Valve. I was complaining about the people who think that Valve could get on without anything from us.

If Valve wants to cancel HL2 and work on a The Sims 2 expansion, well, it's their damn choice.

If you did go into McDonalds, would it be in their best interests to tell you about how delicious a burger was, and then refuse to sell it to you? Valve has invested way too much in HL2 to not release it.

As I have said before, we want HL2. And valve, for whatever reason, wants our money. They must come up with a good reason for us to part with our money. And they have. Now all they have to do is deliver, and we're all happy.

I am complaining about the fact that people bitch about the delays. It is costing Valve money to delay the game. If they could finish it now they would.

 

[UndeadScottsman]

im just saying, if someone has puke coming up their throat from ingesting something their body didn't like, they are going to puke their guts out, no amount of talking will make it disappear. best thing to do is let people get the bad shit out of their system.

Well, to keep with that analagy; I'm trying to tell them how they can avoid having to puke in the first place Or at least showing how they can distract themselves long enough for the urge to puke to pass.. Or something...

*takes this analogy out back and shoots it in the head*

Heh...

Sincerely,
Jeremy Dunn

 

[Moejoe]

valve is a great company, and i agree with the positives here, they are pouring everything they have into making this game absolutely perfect. BUT! they have their own flaws, as all companys do.

They are crappy timers.

that's what is pissing off most people. Valve is saying "oh you know, it'll be here in 2 weeks." then they flip flop and delay it. It's extremely frustrating. I think that is what makes so many people so damn negative around here.

But still, minus the delays and bad timing, valve is a company with good intentions; trying to please the customer. just give it time and don't get your hopes wayyy up until you see that box sitting on a Target shelf.

 

[UndeadScottsman]

they need to get their finger out and finish the god damn game.

Also all valve fanboys its now time to stfu this is fkn bullshit. Someone posted "well valve said summer/fall release so u have nothing to complain about" ???!! sorry !! wtf did i miss something??!! how about sept 30 2003!?? with a company whos delayed it for a year then be happy with a 6 month release window is blatent ****ing fanboyism. /endrant

Heh, the original Half-Life was delayed by a year. Hell, even Doom 3 was delayed by quite a bit "Doom 3 is not going to be a multiple E3 game"

Sincerely,
Jeremy Dunn

 

[ukfluke]

well if they had said last september that the game wont be out for another year then fine. But all this shit they talk really pisses me off.

 

[subtlesnake]

they need to get their finger out and finish the god damn game.

What do you think they are trying to do?

 

[japher]

valve did not support hl for 5-6 years because they're just special guys! they did it because that is now the way to build a successful company and make lots of cash. they saw what id did with quake/quake2 and realised that continued support to a loyal fanbase was there "window to weight gain".

keep that support up, and you'll still be selling hl for years to come, you can even release half arsed rubbish like CS:CZ and the fanbase will get out their wallets. this is what the brilliant support has been about, and i do respect valve as a company for having the business sense to do this. they are in the industry to make money, and with hl they really hit the nail on the head strategy-wise. they did not do it because "gabe is an awesome dude!!!111!".

 

[japher]

also, people who worship gabe newell like some kind of genius really f*cks me off. admittedly, valve was his vision and he was (partly) responsible for probably the greatest computer game ever made. but he did not make halflife2. okay?

i can just imagine valve employees at e3 watching all the fans wet themselves when they see a bink shouting "gabe you f*cking roxxor!". the dev standing there thinking, "it was me that spent months getting that strider to walk just right". the artist thinking, "i f*cking designed that strider from scratch and worked on all the concept art for weeks on end". and the script writer(s) thinking, "i came up with every atmospheric bit of this bloody game!".

respect the humble folks who do all the hard work, not the pricks who give out bad release dates and take all the credit once the game is shipped.

 

[Absinthe]

You Valve brown-nosers just don't get it.

I'm not going to argue that Valve owes me something, because they don't. But they have lied. They have delayed numerous times. They have been vague. They have given scant information on things we should have known about long ago. They have repeatedly broken their promises. They have kept us out in the cold. We rabidly eat up any table scraps that they throw at us, because they know well enough how much we want this game. They have treated us like dirt.

Yeah, yeah, it's their product. I can understand that...

But even you have to admit that they should have given a tad more thought to the community that put them on the map, gave them some nice mods to snatch up, and have supported their outdated game for over 5 years.

I don't have the right to demand anything. But I do have the right to be annoyed.

 

[crownest]

I dont really blame Valve for anything, execpt sometimes i think their taking their own sweet time.

 

[subtlesnake]

You Valve brown-nosers just don't get it.

I'm not going to argue that Valve owes me something, because they don't. But they have lied. They have delayed numerous times. They have been vague. They have given scant information on things we should have known about long ago. They have repeatedly broken their promises. They have kept us out in the cold. We rabidly eat up any table scraps that they throw at us, because they know well enough how much we want this game. They have treated us like dirt.

Yeah, yeah, it's their product. I can understand that...

But even you have to admit that they should have given a tad more thought to the community that put them on the map, gave them some nice mods to snatch up, and have supported their outdated game for over 5 years.

I don't have the right to demand anything. But I do have the right to be annoyed.

Complete and total rubbish.

Valve's situation within the gaming world is unparalleled. No other game has generated this sort of hype or fan interest. No other developer has developed such celebrity status.

And simple fact is, most developers engage in no direct communication with the fanbase whatsoever. They don't post on forums or respond to emails. They don't give out interviews with the community or deal out exclusive information. They certainly don't invite people to their studio for free tours.

Whatever dates are generally given by the publisher and there are no 'fan updates'. And very frequently these dates are wrong. Whatever you think of Valve, you have to except that delays are the norm in this industry. Look at Doom 3 - first it didn't make 2002, then it didn't make 2003 and it's only now been released in the latter half of 2004. Because forecasting by it's very nature is inaccurate. But you know what, the Doom 3 fanbase isn't ripping id apart for being over a year late. And I think the reason is because id didn't give out regular updates to the fanbase. There was no "ok we hope to get a RC to Activision in one month". It just went gold suddenly.

What Valve needs to do is stop pandering to the fanbase, stop giving out new dates and mini updates. People are obviously not mature enough to deal with the ups and downs of the development process. They feel that every estimation is a personal promise by Valve. The more Valve gives, the more they want. "Hows the SDK coming, when will the benchmark be released, exactly what components are being shipped with the final game?"

And of course these things are open to change. So Rick does his best with an answer of 'we're planning on releasing the SDK in 2 months' but two months later things have changed. Suddenly Valve is accused of lying "Where's my SDK" the rabid fans shout. On the other hand, had Valve said nothing people would be saying "Why is Valve neglecting the fanbase".

So to surmise, fans cannot cope with direct involvement during the development process, especially Valves development process!

 

[guise]

yay for valve!

nay for lies!

 

[Absinthe]

No other game has generated this sort of hype or fan interest. No other developer has developed such celebrity status.

More reason to take care with the information you publish.

And simple fact is, most developers engage in no direct communication with the fanbase whatsoever. They don't post on forums or respond to emails. They don't give out interviews with the community or deal out exclusive information. They certainly don't invite people to their studio for free tours.

Free studio tours play little factor in this. The information given out in interviews is the information given out in practically EVERY interview. And the e-mail responses? Mostly vague and ambiguous. We can't even squeeze out a simple yes or no when it comes to multiplayer.

Whatever dates are generally given by the publisher and there are no 'fan updates'. And very frequently these dates are wrong. Whatever you think of Valve, you have to except that delays are the norm in this industry. Look at Doom 3 - first it didn't make 2002, then it didn't make 2003 and it's only now been released in the latter half of 2004. Because forecasting by it's very nature is inaccurate. But you know what, the Doom 3 fanbase isn't ripping id apart for being over a year late. And I think the reason is because id didn't give out regular updates to the fanbase. There was no "ok we hope to get a RC to Activision in one month". It just went gold suddenly.

Delays are normal, I agree. It is not, however, normal to announce your game and then promise it to be delivered in less than half a year when you know damn well that it won't be finished. It also isn't normal to hold on to that same release date up until that very day, with the knowledge that your game won't make it, and then announce it delayed. And then there are the subsequent delays that followed it afterwards, regarding not only the game, but the pre-load, and the SDK, and the benchmarking tool.

Yeah, delays are the norm. But now it's getting ridiculous.

It just went gold suddenly.

Which would probably be prefferential to Valve right now. Since they can't get any date right, why not just shut your trap and wait until you have something 99% solid? It doesn't make sense to keep making and breaking promises when all you get is fed-up fans.

The rest of your post essentially strengthens my opinion that Valve should just keep this shit to themselves since they should know full well that things are subject to change, and that the community gets rightly pissed off when they're giving progress reports that inevtiably lead to dead-ends.

 

[The Mullinator]

Since so many useless things have been posted in here already that have been argued about for FOR A WHOLE FREAGIN YEAR ALREADY I will just say this.

Valve makes mistakes, can you accept that? Good.
Should you get mad at Valve and start flaming them because they made mistakes? Well if you are an ungrateful little moron then yes.
What does your money for HL2 go towards? Well it goes to the final product of HL2, not the process leading up to it.

So get a grip, stop whining, sit back, shut up, accept that Valve has made mistakes in the past but doesn't purposely try to hurt you, and accept that the only thing Valve will ever owe you is HL2 once it is done but not now.

Obviously most people here will completely ignore this like they have for A WHOLE FREAGIN YEAR ALREADY But I don't care, no ungrateful little brat will convince me otherwise, no ungrateful little brat will convince me that I am somehow some Valve "fanboy" because I don't hate the company.

I mean really, the most pathetic argument is calling someone a Valve "fanboy" because they don't hate the company and don't like seeing people insult someone for no reason aside from the fact that people just don't understand how game development works and want something to take their misplaced anger out upon. If you decide that you aren't going to buy HL2 because of this then I am happy because I now know I won't have to put up with your short temper in any HL2 multiplayer games. If you say now you are going to pirate the game because you feel Valve has somehow hurt you then you are an idiot, you and I both know you would pirate the game had it been released on September the 30th anyway.

 

[Rupertvdb]

^
Why whine so much? 'making and breaking promises' pfff i laugh at your indignance from my belly. I want the game really really badly, it shall be a whole world of fun and the mods shall give be a healthy backup to continue playability for ages...that said, let them release it when they are ready, if they make a lot of noise and fail to live up to it before they do who cares. It's their professional reputation that is suffering, i am not referring to gamers becoming impatient but other companies not wishing to deal with Valve as a result of their business decisions.

The community is very hard to actually pin down, i'd say the community is the group that want the game and support it, people who use forums to whine about the company producing the game are not community members, or if they are it is not the HL community.

I consider myself a community member because i don't give a flying about the company, how it deals with its customers or the promises it fails to deliver on, i enjoyed HL i made maps and models and mods for it, i shall continue to do so for HL2 when it turns up, they cannot physically let me down unless the game is shocking or the game is not modable, its release should not affect the way you enjoy it.

 

[Absinthe]

For the record, you people should recognize the difference between whining and pointing out the blatant displays of incompetence shown by a developer.

And Mullinator, you need to recognize that if I call somebody a Valve fanboy, I'm not making a blanket statement directed towards anybody supportive of Valve. I'm referring to those with the attitude that Valve can do no wrong, and that Valve is perfect, and that every single ****-up the company has made is somehow not actually their fault.

I do support Valve. I want them to make a great game. But that's not gonna stop me from accepting the obvious fact that these people don't seem to know what in the Hell they're doing most of the time.

 

[The Mullinator]

For the record, you people should recognize the difference between whining and pointing out the blatant displays of incompetence shown by a developer.

Unless you are a developer then I don't think you can have any clue what the "incompetant" displays of a developer could be. Aside from them not revealing that the September 30th release date was impossible until the last minute (one of the mistakes I am talking about) and keeping very tight lipped about development and features (understandable considering how much hate they recieve from the community) I can't see anything that they have really done wrong. Everything that has happened has either been something that they were planning but had to change (something that always happens in the software industry), or related to a few little minor delays because of Steam.

EDIT: When people support Valve they aren't saying that Valve can do no wrong, they are simply caught in an argument where people seem to believe that Valve can do no right and as a result of defending Valve they end up looking like they believe Valve can do no wrong.

 

[x84D80Yx]

i dont remember doom 3 having a concrete date other than august 3rd.

 

[^Ben]

There were quite a few "well if it isn't done by this e3"

And stuff like that, just like valve has done.

I think they had 1 concrete release date before and missed it. Then shut up

 

[x84D80Yx]

There were quite a few "well if it isn't done by this e3"

And stuff like that, just like valve has done.

I think they had 1 concrete release date before and missed it. Then shut up

Thats just it, they never had a concrete release date, so you cant say id or activision delayed doom3.

anyways thats off topic. i really dont care about hl2 as much as i did a year ago. im sure it will be a great game. but you wont see me praising about valve's schedule.

 

[Absinthe]

Unless you are a developer then I don't think you can have any clue what the "incompetant" displays of a developer could be. Aside from them not revealing that the September 30th release date was impossible until the last minute (one of the mistakes I am talking about) and keeping very tight lipped about development and features (understandable considering how much hate they recieve from the community) I can't see anything that they have really done wrong. Everything that has happened has either been something that they were planning but had to change (something that always happens in the software industry), or related to a few little minor delays because of Steam.

I may not be a game developer, but I do know incompetence when I see it. Putting the HL2 script in the CS:S cache is incompetent. So is leaving your game and source code on a computer connected to the internet so that any hacker worth his salt can obtain it.

And then there's the incompetence of their PR. PR is important to every company. So when they lie about an initial release date, and then constantly push it back again and again, then I can interpret that in one of two ways.

1) They're lying to us.

2) They don't have a real good idea as to what the hell kind of state their game is in.

And now let's assume that the game is actually close to going gold. Being tight-lipped about their ****ing features is not understandable. You say it's because they'll get hate. I say bullshit to that, my friend. What many are PO'ed about is the fact that they aren't getting enough information. For example, why can't we get a single "Yes" or "No" answer when it comes to the game having it's own HL2-themed multiplayer? Really, all we're getting now is progress updates and release date estimations that essentially take us nowhere.

When people support Valve they aren't saying that Valve can do no wrong, they are simply caught in an argument where people seem to believe that Valve can do no right and as a result of defending Valve they end up looking like they believe Valve can do no wrong.

Point taken. I suppose this is true in some cases.

 

[subtlesnake]

And the e-mail responses? Mostly vague and ambiguous. We can't even squeeze out a simple yes or no when it comes to multiplayer.

You only say that because you want information on certain specific subjects. As you said yourself:

"Valve should just keep this shit to themselves since they should know full well that things are subject to change"

Multiplayer is something that is subject to change. Before 2004 they were shooting for a unique multiplayer component, now it's clear they've changed their focus to CS:S. Maybe that original component will be released sometime, maybe it wont. Either way seeming to promise anything would be a major mistake. But they did state that CS:S would be the only multiplayer component. Can't get clearer than that.

And where there is ambiguity, it is there for a reason. But ignoring these 'hot' issues, in the e-mails thread there's an absolute ton of info regarding specific technical aspects of HL2 and Source. A.I, sound, gameplay, physics, netcode. Then there's the IRC chat which is pretty comprehensive as well.

I can't think of any other game where this much information was given directly to the fans.

Delays are normal, I agree. It is not, however, normal to announce your game and then promise it to be delivered in less than half a year when you know damn well that it won't be finished. It also isn't normal to hold on to that same release date up until that very day, with the knowledge that your game won't make it, and then announce it delayed.

I agree. However I think they've moved on from the whole September 30th mess which is why their latest predictions are less specific.

Yeah, delays are the norm. But now it's getting ridiculous.

No, DNF is ridiculous. Half-Life 2 is merely "over a year overdue", just like Doom 3 was.

The rest of your post essentially strengthens my opinion that Valve should just keep this shit to themselves since they should know full well that things are subject to change, and that the community gets rightly pissed off when they're giving progress reports that inevtiably lead to dead-ends.

Right. The problem is not that they 'treat the community like dirt' but the opposite - they try to please the fan community too much.

2) They don't have a real good idea as to what the hell kind of state their game is in.

I thought we'd established that delays are normal. Doom 3 was pushed back 2 or 3 times. Stalker isn’t even coming this year.

And there's the fact that original HL was delayed by a year too.

And now let's assume that the game is actually close to going gold. Being tight-lipped about their ****ing features is not understandable.

Well, I think their final answer was fairly unambiguous, that CS:S will be the only HL2 multiplayer component.

For example, why can't we get a single "Yes" or "No" answer when it comes to the game having it's own HL2-themed multiplayer? Really, all we're getting now is progress updates and release date estimations that essentially take us nowhere.

We were given an answer. Several in fact

 

[NeLi]

*runs for his life*

 

[Ghost Freeman]

I just have one thing to say to all of you that complain about Valve, and I hope you see it every time you click this thread.
You are ungrateful

QFE straight to the point.

 

[Rossell]

Right some of the things I noticed about Valve:

They injected money BACK into Half-Life 2 AND the company (their office looks spliffy).

They don't appear to have played any other games since the original was released. Amazingly.

Oh, I do believe they weren't ready to release HL2 last September. But I don't care personally. I guess the leak didn't help much. Still, perseverance pays off I guess.

The game admitedly does look kick-ass. Its a lot beter judging by recent screenshots then the leaked beta. I have seen it because of the almost impending release I figured it'd do no harm. Its not on my system any more

IMHO, Valve are good.

 

[Bait]

HL2 is a self-funded project. That way, Valve can get the game exactly the way they want without too much outside interferance (aside from Vivendi). One thing that I really liked was when someone asked Gabe something along the lines of "Did you enjoy HL?" or "Do you still play HL?" or something like that. His answer was that he couldn't play through HL without ever thinking "I wish that was better" or "We should have changed that". That shows me the level of dedication he has. Even though HL won award after award, years later Gabe still finds flaws in it that he wishes he could change. I think Valve is going to try and avoid that feeling with HL2.

All the more respect for them. I hope they really get it right.

 

[Absinthe]

You only say that because you want information on certain specific subjects. As you said yourself:

"Valve should just keep this shit to themselves since they should know full well that things are subject to change"

Multiplayer is something that is subject to change. Before 2004 they were shooting for a unique multiplayer component, now it's clear they've changed their focus to CS:S. Maybe that original component will be released sometime, maybe it wont. Either way seeming to promise anything would be a major mistake.

If, by this point, multiplayer is still subject to change, then I doubt I'll be seeing this game before the end of the year.

If I am to believe they're sending an RC soon, then I don't see how it would be a major mistake to inform the community about the MP component. This is information the customer should know about before he purchases the damn thing.

But they did state that CS:S would be the only multiplayer component. Can't get clearer than that.

...Have you even read the forums?

And where there is ambiguity, it is there for a reason. But ignoring these 'hot' issues, in the e-mails thread there's an absolute ton of info regarding specific technical aspects of HL2 and Source. A.I, sound, gameplay, physics, netcode. Then there's the IRC chat which is pretty comprehensive as well.

I will admit that information about the engine and the ability to modify the game is necessary information to put out. But practically every other developer releases this information as well. The rest of the stuff you listed is quite trivial. I don't mean that it's useless to the game. But I don't need to know if a combine guard will notice me if I kick over a coke can or some kind of crap like that. I want to know (in clear English) what the multiplayer is. I want to know what the Hell is shipping with this game. I want to know what is in the Collector's Edition. I want to know the most basic things about this title before I make a god damn purchase.

I can't think of any other game where this much information was given directly to the fans.

Does it matter if it's given directly to the fans or to a corporate site? Either way, the information gets to us. And the way I see it, Valve seems content with bogging us down and the smallest of details rather than giving us the broader picture.

No, DNF is ridiculous. Half-Life 2 is merely "over a year overdue", just like Doom 3 was.

id managed to keep its mouth shut when it came to the delay. That's why you didn't get foaming-at-the-mouth fanboys calling for their heads.

Right. The problem is not that they 'treat the community like dirt' but the opposite - they try to please the fan community too much.

In my eyes, the end result is the fan being treated like dirt. Wether or not it's intentional doesn't matter (although I doubt it is). The end result is still the same.

I thought we'd established that delays are normal. Doom 3 was pushed back 2 or 3 times. Stalker isn’t even coming this year.

And there's the fact that original HL was delayed by a year too.

Yes, but those games did not have the kind of melodrama that followed after their announced delays. If I remember correctly, id held a firm "It'll be done when it's done" stance for quite a long time. Why can't Valve?

You seem to think that I have a problem with a delay by itself. I don't. I do, however, get annoyed when one developer keeps making empty promises that they won't live up to. I would prefer it if they kept silent until they had a release date ready and were able to give out all the information a customer would require before purchasing. Instead, I'm here expecting to purchase a game in less than a few months and I don't even know exactly what I'd be getting.

Well, I think their final answer was fairly unambiguous, that CS:S will be the only HL2 multiplayer component.

We were given an answer. Several in fact

Again, I ask you to read the forums.

While I am inclined to agree with you on this, there are many that aren't. This is another issue that Valve could easily clear up for everybody if they made an official announcement here, on GameSpy, or (god forbid) the official Half-Life 2 site.