Cost of the Iraq War - Check out these numbers!

[seinfeldrules]

what intelligence community? the ones that are in the coalition? documents prove Blair fudged documents to make his case for war with Iraq ..anyone who doesnt see this is either not looking deep enough, or they just dont want to know

Are we talking about Bush, or Blair?

btw your answer clearly proves you didnt see F9/11 ..in it you clearly see Powell, and Condy rice say the exact same thing prior to 9/11: "Saddam doesnt have WMD

You're basing your case off of F9/11? Come on now.

You are crazy if you honestly believe the congress and the American people see the same evidence. Bush gets daily briefings from the CIA, then he decides what intelligence he wants to show congress and the American people.

Kerry said he saw the 'same intelligence' as Bush. You still cant explain away Clinton either.

 

[CptStern]

Are we talking about Bush, or Blair?

take your pick

You're basing your case off of F9/11? Come on now.

...ya cuz that's exactly what I said :upstare: why do I bother with you seinfeldrules? probably cuz I'm an idiot and I expect people to not take everything at face value and actually put some thought into these discussions

Kerry said he saw the 'same intelligence' as Bush. You still cant explain away Clinton either.

for the last time: I DONT FREAKIN CARE IF IT CAME OUT OF GEORGE WASHINGTON'S MOUTH ..you're all guilty

 

[No Limit]

Are we talking about Bush, or Blair?

Clearly talking about Blair but it woudl also apply to Bush:

what intelligence community? the ones that are in the coalition? documents prove Blair fudged documents to make his case for war with Iraq ..anyone who doesnt see this is either not looking deep enough, or they just dont want to know

You're basing your case off of F9/11? Come on now.

Classic Republican response "Oh noes, the source is too liberal!!!!!!!!". The movie shows video, A VIDEO, of them saying Saddam doesn't have WMDs.

Kerry said he saw the 'same intelligence' as Bush. You still cant explain away Clinton either.

Can you show me a quote. I don't like to call people out on quotes but I haven't heard this yet so please post it in full form. I haven't read the clinton thing yet, let me look at it and I will respond shortly.

 

[^Ben]

In one of the debates Kerry said.

"He would take the same action but he would of waited for the UN todo their job(hazy on this) and he would of grouped a larger coalition."

Please corect me if im wrong but I swear I heard him say something like that.

 

[firemachine69]

the real cost of the war

Perhaps you should re-register under "CptDUMBASS".

Seriously. Get a life hippie.

(I voted Green Party, if anyone wants to know, don't agree with all of it, but most of what they had on the agenda.)

Get over it already. Estimates pin Saddam at up to 200 000 (maybe more) genocidal kills. Just wish you were the one getting tortured/executed by him.

 

[Absinthe]

Perhaps you should re-register under "CptDUMBASS".

Seriously. Get a life hippie.

Wow. That was classy.

 

[CptStern]

Perhaps you should re-register under "CptDUMBASS".

Seriously. Get a life hippie.

Get over it already. Estimates pin Saddam at up to 200 000 (maybe more) genocidal kills. Just wish you were the one getting tortured/executed by him.

*stern hits report bad post button ..chuckles inwardly ..waits to see warning level go + 1*

edit: thx Absinthe

 

[Absinthe]

Check it out, Stern! He hadded to it!

Get over it already. Estimates pin Saddam at up to 200 000 (maybe more) genocidal kills. Just wish you were the one getting tortured/executed by him.

Wishing torture and execution on somebody for disagreeing with a war. I can smell the humanitarianism in the air.

 

[firemachine69]

Well make it two. Go cry to mommy. Jeezus. What are you, twelve? You sure as hell act like it.


Whenever your utopian world comes crashin down on you, I'll gladly answer any "real life" questions you may have. :thumbs:

Absinthe:

Well come on, let's be realistic. Bush and the US are the only ones with the resources (and the balls *COUGH*) to do anything to stop it.

 

[Absinthe]

 

[seinfeldrules]

take your pick

I thought we were talking about Bush. Rant about Blair all you want, I really dont know enough to say anything one way or another.

...ya cuz that's exactly what I said why do I bother with you seinfeldrules? probably cuz I'm an idiot and I expect people to not take everything at face value and actually put some thought into these discussions

btw your answer clearly proves you didnt see F9/11 ..in it you clearly see Powell, and Condy rice say the exact same thing prior to 9/11: "Saddam doesnt have WMD"

This is what you said

for the last time: I DONT FREAKIN CARE IF IT CAME OUT OF GEORGE WASHINGTON'S MOUTH ..you're all guilty

Nope, Saddam's the guilty one. Its about time we took out the trash.

MR. RUSSERT: But you had access to the intelligence. You had access to the national intelligence estimate...

SEN. KERRY: Absolutely.

MR. RUSSERT: Were you misled by the intelligence agencies? Were you duped?

SEN. KERRY: No, we weren’t—I don’t know whether we were lied to, I don’t know whether they had the most colossal intelligence failure in history, I don’t know if the politics of the White House drove them to exaggerate. The bottom line is that we voted on the basis of information that was given to us, that has since then been proven to be incorrect. The bottom line is also, Tim, the president had an obligation to put the United States in the strongest position possible. I warned the president in January, “Mr. President, do not rush to war. Take the time to build the coalition. Take the time to exhaust the remedies.” And when he made the decision, I said, “I would have preferred that we took further time to do further diplomacy.” I think we should have.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3080246/

 

[firemachine69]

Was to Stern, if ya didn't catch on. Another cry baby on these forums. Ohh Mommies he said bad mean word to me!

Where the hell are the mature, realistic people anyways?

 

[burner69]

Well make it two. Go cry to mommy. Jeezus. What are you, twelve? You sure as hell act like it.

He says after calling stern "cpt dumbass" and wishing he was dead.

Hmm...

Oh, and bush having... 'the balls' to do it. What a crock of crap, he couldn't give less of a crap about evil dictators, he helps arm them for christ sake. Wake up.

 

[firemachine69]

Obviously not by choice. May I remind you who's testing MRBM's (*cough* Korea *cough*)

Ohh I'm sorry, forgot, the states shipped the missiles there UPS (they were over the USPS weight limit ).


Now it all makes sense. :upstare:


Maybe then can try to arm us instead, the evil Canucks. We need to fight off the evil mad cow alien invasion, to save Mac Chunks at McD's.

Yea I dunno where that came from...

 

[Absinthe]

Where the hell are the mature, realistic people anyways?

You certainly don't seem to be one of them.

 

[firemachine69]

Still live with mommy and/or daddy (to be politically correct :stare: )?

Good you don't qualify either.

 

[CptStern]

I thought we were talking about Bush. Rant about Blair all you want, I really dont know enough to say anything one way or another.

that's the first time I've ever heard you say that ..kudos

This is what you said

it was a "btw" not the main point

Nope, Saddam's the guilty one. Its about time we took out the trash.

trash of your own making ..yup, you made it, you deal with it. BTW who's going to hold you accountable for the 500,000 iraqi children you killed?

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3080246/

man you just dont listen! I dont care if Kerry had polaroids of saddam getting ready to strap himself to an ICBM. BUSH gave the order to invade

 

[Tr0n]

Was to Stern, if ya didn't catch on. Another cry baby on these forums. Ohh Mommies he said bad mean word to me!

Where the hell are the mature, realistic people anyways?

I love the irony.

 

[firemachine69]

There's no such thing as 500000 Iraqi's killed. In fact, unless the States ever did a count of the dead, take the Eastern way, except divide it (they always seem to multiply it by 100). So maybe 5000. Even that's a little exhagerated.

It's called "collateral". Get out of the way, for christ sakes. Mistakes happen as well. Prosecute those that use the US jurisdiction and abuse it's powers. In three sentences I've just accounted for 99% of collateral in a war.

But that last line was just classic.

 

[CptStern]

Was to Stern, if ya didn't catch on. Another cry baby on these forums. Ohh Mommies he said bad mean word to me!

Where the hell are the mature, realistic people anyways?

from the rules sticky in the politics forum:


"I want to make this crystal clear. This is not an excuse for ranting , flaming and being abusive. If in the course of a thread in here you misbehave you will be punished. If that sounds harsh thats because I want it to.

The political discussion threads on here rapidly turn to spam and often hate so I am giving you all clear warning now. Be civil to each other and try and have a balanced discussion rather degenerating into childish insults."


either follow the rules or leave, simple as that

 

[firemachine69]

Maybe if you ACTED like an adult yourself, realized shit happens, the trash has got to be taken out, and there is no such thing as a utopian world, you could come here and have a BALANCED discussion. Not throwing in BS references. Take your own advice. CptHipocryte.

(God I'm enjoying myself with that )

<EDIT>

Ohh wow, just reported you too!


I might as well report you to the US Army for using the name Cpt. when you aren't one. Be about as intelligent as your posts. :upstare:

 

[el Chi]

Obviously not by choice.

I'm sorry - what? Are you actually trying to say that Bush and the American military contractors (and, I might add, British ones) didn't sell WMDs to Iraq, Iran and god knows what other disagreeable nations and regimes - that they did this not by choice?

I hope not...

And I like how you enhance almost all your arguments with smilies. Whilst simultaneously calling others childish. What fabulous debating technique you display.

 

[firemachine69]

I'm sorry - what? Are you actually trying to say that Bush and the American military contractors (and, I might add, British ones) didn't sell WMDs to Iraq, Iran and god knows what other disagreeable nations and regimes - that they did this not by choice?

I hope not...

And I like how you enhance almost all your arguments with smilies. Whilst simultaneously calling others childish. What fabulous debating technique you display.

Again, mistakes happen. Bush didn't do them. I may as well blame you for the US's mistakes. :stare:

 

[KoreBolteR]

There's no such thing as 500000 Iraqi's killed. In fact, unless the States ever did a count of the dead, take the Eastern way, except divide it (they always seem to multiply it by 100). So maybe 5000. Even that's a little exhagerated.

It's called "collateral". Get out of the way, for christ sakes. Mistakes happen as well. Prosecute those that use the US jurisdiction and abuse it's powers. In three sentences I've just accounted for 99% of collateral in a war.

But that last line was just classic.

some of it is mistakes made by the coalition.

but id like to add, that the anti-american protesters will do anything to make America and the west look bad, so use civilians as hostages/shields. These terrorists cowardly hide in thier homes dress in civilian clothes and then give guns to children to shoot the good troops.

i even remember reading about the American soldier giving out candy to a bunch of kids, before one of the kids blew himself up, killing them all, under the orders of the terrorists. makes me sick. :flame: there is no certain way to know the excact iraqi body count, but i can tell you most of killing of them were caused by "killing eachother" or "terrorists killing them to politially prove a point" and make the anti-coalition people happy.

 

[seinfeldrules]

BTW who's going to hold you accountable for the 500,000 iraqi children you killed?

The Iraqi people will hold Saddam responsible for holding back 12 billion dollars in aid. That same money was used to build up his army and gold plated toilets.

man you just dont listen! I dont care if Kerry had polaroids of saddam getting ready to strap himself to an ICBM. BUSH gave the order to invade

Sigh, I was referring to No Limit. He asked for the quote. I even quoted him before I added the quote/link.

 

[CptStern]

There's no such thing as 500000 Iraqi's killed. In fact, unless the States ever did a count of the dead, take the Eastern way, except divide it (they always seem to multiply it by 100). So maybe 5000. Even that's a little exhagerated.

"we dont do bodycounts" - General Tommy Franks

It's called "collateral". Get out of the way, for christ sakes. Mistakes happen as well. Prosecute those that use the US jurisdiction and abuse it's powers. In three sentences I've just accounted for 99% of collateral in a war.

But that last line was just classic. :laugh

:upstare: so now you're an expert on collatoral damage? so you're saying that the 7000 iraqi civilians killed in the first few weeks of invasion died as a result of their own stupidity?

what about this 12 year old boy who was sleeping when american bombs destroyed his neighbourhood and killed amongst others: his pregnant mother, his father, brother etc

 

[Tr0n]

For christ sake...wheres a mod when you need one? :|

 

[Absinthe]

Maybe if you ACTED like an adult yourself, realized shit happens, the trash has got to be taken out, and there is no such thing as a utopian world, you could come here and have a BALANCED discussion. Not throwing in BS references. Take your own advice. CptHipocryte.

Yeah, we're tree-hugging hippies wasting our wishes on a utopia because we disagree with a war and the methods employed in it.

Ohh wow, just reported you too!

The difference? You're the one with the abusive posts.

I might as well report you to the US Army for using the name Cpt. when you aren't one. Be about as intelligent as your posts. :upstare:

Irrelevant.

For such an advocate of maturity, you're quite contradictory.

 

[el Chi]

Again, mistakes happen. Bush didn't do them. I may as well blame you for the US's mistakes. :stare:

How flippant and ignorant can you be? Do you not realise the full-scale hypocrisy of it all?
They were not MISTAKES. They were cold, hard business transactions with regimes they knew to be murderous, oppressive and volatile. Possibly even aggressive. And in some cases were helped into power by the CIA. But f*ck it, they're out there to make money. Such is the nature of big business.
But then to turn round later and say how awful these nations are and how terrible it is that they got these weapons... Well, it's almost beyond reproach.

 

[Eg.]

burner,

if we supply 80% of the arab world with American guns, why are they all using ak47's?

how can so many arab nations get our guns if we only seel them to saudi arabia,

so the arabs hit us becasue of our bad forgein policy, which is giving guns adn money to isreal.

sure britain has a higher standard of living, but can any one nation spend soooo much money in one sitting and still keep going? no

i call on stern to list the bad forgien policies that forced those poor terrorists into attacking. really, i want someone that calls peope stupid only half the time to give me the reasons

 

[Eg.]

"we dont do bodycounts" - General Tommy Franks



:upstare: so now you're an expert on collatoral damage? so you're saying that the 7000 iraqi civilians killed in the first few weeks of invasion died as a result of their own stupidity?

what about this 12 year old boy who was sleeping when american bombs destroyed his neighbourhood and killed amongst others: his pregnant mother, his father, brother etc

shit happends, its war. u dotn do body counts because there are still more people to kill.

ok, how come my posts dont merge like they used to, oh well

 

[Shippi]

Firemachine69, I really think you have to take your own advice. Calm down and grow up

 

[Tr0n]

Firemachine69, I really think you have to take your own advice. Calm down and grow up

****in finally a mod comes!

Holy shit he's at 8. :|

 

[CptStern]

Yeah, we're tree-hugging hippies wasting our wishes on a utopia because we disagree with a war and the methods employed in it.
.

*stern hovers mouse over report bad post but then realizes he's a hippie tree-hugger wasting his wishes on a utopia because he disagrees with the war!!! ..quickly pulls mouse away* :E

 

[K e r b e r o s]

Why? US Foreign Policy.

Sorry, does supporting Israel and Kuwait from middle-eastern Jihad and massacre, make for bad foreign policy?

Response. More hardcore foreign policy.

Again, no attack, no Hardcore Foreign policy.

Muslim extremism --> Nine Arab countries are involved in the attacking of Israel --> US Foreign policy --> 9/11 --> more US foreign policy --> ???

Corrected.

America spending billions on Iraq - Is it going to affect me? Sure it is. Thats money that could have been used to open up new freeways that are congested right now.

Oh, Waah! People are dying -- sit in traffic and wait you ass.

That money could have been used to reopen one of many closed hospitals in S. California.

Valid concerns -- however, that responsibility is lended in your state spending. Protest that ...

That money could have been used to buffer the flood of illegals into California.

Valid Concern -- take this up with the Government. However, there other things being spent besides Iraq -- can you name whats second to Iraq?

Killing civilians, Arab leaders, and insurgents - Does it affect me? Perhaps, in the long run. By killing peoples families and their leaders, we caused more hatred towards the United States.

Its not like were intending to kill civilians -- the terrorists have killed more people alone by suicide bombing attempts and roadside bombs, then a single Cruise missle strike.

On average, from a cruise missle, the shrapnel kills more people then the blast -- with bombs, the blast can imminently kill large amounts of people, and wound up to hundreds more; with just one.

Iraq now has become a terrorist nation. They're now recruiting and running operations there. Europe has also become a large recruitment area for those wanting to join the insurgents. We've had a hand in creating the hatred that the Islamic have towards the US. Therefore, the risk of domestic terrorist attacks will rise. "Killing a few civilians"? Try 15475-17703 people. Some consider that estimate to be conservative. So it might be a lot more.

Europe has always had terrorist recruitment cells -- it was going on during the 1940's; it was going on seven years ago. The extremist islamics own hate is backfiring -- so their is some saving light in some of your grievances.

Bush is religious - Does it affect me? It sure does. He wants to ban abortion.

So, thats your only quam?

As for the abortion issue -- some people just abort their children because after goofing off, it just comes at an inconvience to their personal lifes. How selfish is that, is what I say. Rape? Sure, abort. Incest? Sure, abort? Disease? Sure abort. Mother could be lost? Possible -- mothers choice.

But, "WE WERE JUST FOOLING AROUND THEN BAM! INSTANT CHILD", no. Life brought irresponsibly into this world, should be life defended.

I'd trade in shitty pants for no war in iraq anyday ..call kerry what you will but he didnt invade a country on false pretenses

Kerry, Bush -- their still both horrible people.

Nethire one is better then the next; anybody but both of them ... besides, if it was'nt for the Monica Lewinsky scandal, and the threat of "Wagging the dog", Clinton would've gone into Afghanistan anyway -- without 9/11.

you cant seriously believe this crap can you?

Yep. With Saddam in power, 500,000 people were killed.

At least, they dont have to worry about Saddams creepy ass sons, killing them or torturing them.

We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

With reguards to Saddam killing that many people -- and if the United States wanted to invest saving that many, just by invading a country of 40 million people.

Then the response was;

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

Nice try, but it failed at the door.

unsubstanitated but compelling none-the-less

Negated, because its not sub-santial.

"If its interesting to look at, but its not truthful -- then its a lie."

We Have No King But Jesus" John Ashcroft

finally, news that Rumsfeld has resigned and has been replace by someone a little more ...biblical

that one is just for fun, so dont go holy hosannah on me

Oooops! Bush did'nt say that ... but Rumsfeld and Ashcroft did.

PS Saddam squandered 12 billion dollars in aid that could have fed the children.

Yep.

God forbid Kerry actually believed his President when he was laying the case for Iraq.

... and you were rooting for him too ...

terrorist and murderer?

If you look into that "terrorist puppets" history, you'll find out he was a terrorist in Iraq, working against Saddam Huesseins regime.

Its a bit of a straw draw -- a little twisted and manipulative against those who dont know; but for someone who does, this arguement of yours just makes me laugh.

Your own sources said what he was a terrorist for -- he was a terrorist for a better Iraq, and was fighting against Saddam for it.

Oh yea ... he's dangerous alright /sarcasm

First of all, I'm not talking about me. Sure, bush being religious dosen't really affect me. You could carpet bomb Iran and if it wasn't for the news I wouldn't have a clue. But guess what, I actually give a crap about a country LYING, KILLING, BEING TOTAL F**KING HYPOCRITS, AND GENERALLY COVERING THE WOOL OVER PEOPLE'S EYES TO MAKE THEM IGNORE IT

Like every other country existing now ...

... dare I say it, even your own.

Why not listen to what OBL had to say - he said he did it because of the US arsing up other countries.

No, he did it because he thought the Israeli F4 Phantoms were actually supplied to the "Zionist" by Americans -- the same Phantoms responsible for crushing Egypts airforce. Yet, they were'nt F4's -- and they were'nt from America.

Ooops!

Maybe he was attacking us, because he felt the watchful eye of the Clinton administration getting closer and closer; he felt Bush might not respond (supposing the first years of 2000 would be dedicated to peace talks between Israel and Palestine.)

Now... those surrounding arab nations need guns and weapons and bombs and tanks - and guess who supplies them.

Russia.

They're not flying F/A18 Hornets -- their flying MiG-28's ...

They're not driving M1A2 Abrams MBT's -- their driving Upgunned T-55's ...

They're not firing M16s ... they're firing AK47's ...

Quick, who made those weapons? Russia. Who made around 75 Billion by selling more then 140,000,000 million Russian Small-Arm designs and physical weapons; up to including their compenents? Russia.

50,000,000-70,000,000 AK47's have been sold World-Wide. http://www.military.com/Resources/EQG/EQGmain?file=AK47&cat=f&lev=2

Included in that money, is the processing and trading of more then 25,000 T-55's, T-72's, T-80's, and other Soviet armor varients -- all sold to nine middle-eastern clients. Oh, yea, who built, and sold that? Russia!

Who sold off nearly 7,000 fighter jets to more then nine arab countries? Russia.

How many small-arms, soviet made of course, are estimated to be on the black market? Approximately 100,000,000. Who manufactures these weapons?

Russia.
China.
India.
Pakistan.
Iran.
Iraq (former).
Lebanon.
Egypt.
Syria.
Lyberia.
Jordan.
North Korea.
South Korea.
Saudi Arabia.
Kuwait (some).

Where do the heaviest sales of Russian made weapons occur?

The Middle-East. [Besides China and India of course]

Iraq had enough AK47's to arm the entire population of New York four times over. The United States is'int selling so much as you'd like to think. Especially, to the Middle-East.

Or how about the hypocracy in Iraq? Selling Saddam chemical weapons after he's just gassed 5000 of his own people - and you're fully aware of it.

Umm, that Gas was sold to them also from Russia. The warheads meant to carry them, aswell as a SCUD (also Soviet made) were given to them ... by the Soviets.

How about the bullsh*t in Iran, saying they have nukes, but refusing to impose a nuclear ban, because you're selling them materials.

No, were not actually. Russia's been giving the supplies, and even then; they've developed the capbility on their own ... also in thanks to Russia.

if the US wasn't tossing weapons to unstable over militarised countries, then moving in and blowing them up, killing thousands, I wouldn't care less about you.

Israel, and Saudi Arabia, are the only countries I know of that we might possibly be giving arms to. Israel, well, is for certain. Saudi Arabia, used to have a market for us. They just found out it was cheaper to go with Russia.

 

[Death.Trap]

Er, what exactly has fire done that's warrented a warning?

 

[CptStern]

Its not like were intending to kill civilians -- the terrorists have killed more people alone by suicide bombing attempts and roadside bombs, then a single Cruise missle strike.

nope, 7000 died in the first 3 weeks of COALITION BOMBING ..to date there hasnt been that many casualities in 3 weeks

On average, from a cruise missle, the shrapnel kills more people then the blast -- with bombs, the blast can imminently kill large amounts of people, and wound up to hundreds more; with just one.

really?

"Precision-guided weaponry accounted for about 10 percent of all the bombs dropped on Iraqi forces during the Persian Gulf War. This time, about 90 percent of the ordnance will arrive on target guided by lasers and satellites."

"The joint air-to-surface stand-off (JASSM), built by Lockheed Martin's Missiles and Fire Control Division in Orlando and Dallas, is an advanced missile that might be used in combat for the first time in Iraq. The stealthy weapon with a range of 200 miles is satellite-guided and uses an infrared device to recognize targets. "

source

"Relatively cheap and extremely accurate, satellite-guided JDAMs were launched at the onset of hostilities... "

source ..there's a lot more; too lazy to continue

man dont you research your points before you post?


Yep. With Saddam in power, 500,000 people were killed.[/quote]

wtf? how can you wash your hands of the deaths of 500,000 children? children that the US, not saddam, was responsible for killing ..and look I dont want any of you saying "duh saddam should have gave them food" ..shows your ignorance ..the majority of children died of a direct result of not having clean drinking water and sanitary conditions ...[url=http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/declassdocs/dia/19950901/950901_511rept_91.html]this proves the US systematically and purposefully targeted the civilian populace and knew what the outcome would be

At least, they dont have to worry about Saddams creepy ass sons, killing them or torturing them.

no, they'll have allawi's murdering and torturing to look forward to
or whomever it is that "wins" the "election"

 

[nicknitro]

we should bomb all the iraqies..civillian or terrorist.

 

[K e r b e r o s]

no, they'll have allawi's murdering and torturing to look forward to
or whomever it is that "wins" the "election"

I just ate your defending spirit of, "Allawi's worse so then Al-Zarqwai."

If all goes as planned, the armed forces will sweep across Iraq without devastating it.

Quoted from Sterns last source. As for the rest, including his last -- simply end up glorifying precision weapons.

As far as things go, your own friendly IraqBodyCount details that nearly 80 percent of the people killed, were killed by Shrapnel. 6% was killed by the blasts themselves.

 

[Absinthe]

we should bomb all the iraqies..civillian or terrorist.

Why do you bother?