Cost of the Iraq War - Check out these numbers!

[satch919]

Woah, this thread has ballooned into another flame fest. Could we get a mod to close this down?

 

[satch919]

It is amazing how much ignorance is shown by the left.

@Satch919 - "Do we get to vote on how our money is being spent?"

I understand what you mean, but in a sense you do get to vote on how the gove spends money when you vote for your congressman and voting against Bush. I am aware you didn't vote for Bush, but what do you think Kerry would have done?



Source

Second, you need to face facts and realize that the cost of the inauguration was paid for by donors.

@ The people who think Iraq is a disaster - You are brainwashed by the MSM. Even what they have now is better than the oppression they lived with under saddam. Now they have hope. Hope they will be free. Under saddam they didn't have that at all.

"This 80 billion won't go directly to the troops. Some of it will be siphoned off to other groups that stand to benefit from this war. You're trusting the same group of people to provide the troops with stuff needed for the war when, not even 2 months ago, couldn't get flak vests, armor, and surgeons scrubs to the guys on the front lines. This money isn't going where its supposed to."

This is more media propaganda. 80 billion is a lot. Wait until the spending bill goes to congress and see how it is broken down. I can guarantee a lot of it will go to troop's salaries. The armor stuff is more propaganda from the left. There is no soldier over there who does not have body armor in their possession. I speak from personal experience on this one. I defy you to find me one person who didn't have a flak vest on the front lines like you suggest.


US Foreign policy --> 9/11 --> more US foreign policy --> ???

You see? That $80bn is counter productive...

Counterproductive how?

There is more to the issue than just foreign policy. Steps could have been taken domestically prior to 9/11 to strengthen intelligence gathering and seeking out to punish those supporting terror. Like Kerry said, terrorism was a nuisance before 9/11, like speeding or something. Had the attitude at the time been different chances are 9/11 could have been prevented.

I don't want a President who thinks he speaks directly to God. His policies are influenced by his religion. Not everyone shares those views. We have Jews, Muslims, Catholics, Bhuddists, Atheists, etc. His policies have to reflect the diversity of this nation, not one group.

I defy you to produce anything Bush has put his name on that is either the product of the the christian god speaking to him. I also defy you to produce something Bush has put his name on that single out christianty over another religeon.

Right, I agree that Kerry's policies are flawed as well but I think this country would stand to benefit from different leadership.

About the armor and such, you just dismiss it as media propaganda. There's a lot of troops who have said that they don't have what they need. What about the soldier who confronted Rumsfeld a couple of months ago? Did that not happen? Or was it just a show from the leftist media spreading their propaganda?

Troop salaries huh? Thats why the Administration decided to cut their combat pay? Your trusting them to give our troops more money? Hmm. http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2003/08/14/MN94780.DTL

You want some proof that people didn't have the equipment that they needed. I know a guy from college that served in Iraq who told me all about his time over there as a cook for a certain division. He told me that they requested equipment all the time, sometimes even armor and their request was denied. He worked out of Baghdad Airport and had to bring supplies to the troops on the front lines. There were times that they'd go out on these supply runs without the necessary protection. So would you like to call him a liar? Or me? You probably don't believe me anyways. You'll say that its more propaganda. But whatever, I know what I heard.

Yes, the Inauguration was paid for by private donors. I can admit that. However, in a time of crisis he could have done a great thing and put that money towards the war effort. But no, he had to have one of the most lavish parties while his own people died in another country. Its amazing how his sponsors can give him all this money but yet when our troops in Iraq need help, they're nowhere to be found.

You want proof about Bush's dealings with his god? Here:

"Bush believes he was called by God to lead the nation at this time, says Commerce Secretary Don Evans, a close friend who talks with Bush every day. His history degree from Yale makes him mindful of the importance of the moment. He knows he's making "history-changing decisions," Evans says. But Bush doesn't keep a diary or other personal record of the events that will form his legacy. Aides take notes, but there's no stenographer in most meetings, nor are they videotaped or recorded." http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-04-01-bush-cover_x.htm

Bush said to James Robinson: 'I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen... I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it. http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1075950,00.html

President Bush met privately with a group of Old Order Amish during his visit to Lancaster County [Pennsylvania] last Friday. He discussed their farms and their hats and his religion. He asked them to vote for him in November.
The Amish told the president that not all members of the church vote but they would pray for him.

Bush had tears in his eyes when he replied. He said the president needs their prayers. He also said that having a strong belief in God is the only way he can do his job.

[...]

At the end of the session, Bush reportedly told the group, "I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job." http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/002151.html

Bush's Faith Based Program:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2086617/

http://www.detnews.com/2005/editorial/0501/09/A13-54400.htm

 

[Eg.]

where have my posts gone?

 

[burner69]

Just making a point, and it dosen't go for all righties, just a few letting the side down...

But the amount of times I've seen a response like this after being told

a) You gave Saddam WMDs
b) You put Saddam in power
c) You bombed innocent civilians
d) Your sanctions killed half a million innocent children

Response: "I suppose it's our fault. It's not, it's terrorists."

The US guilt carpet for some people is like a mole hill, the amount of crap they sweep under there,

 

[Eg.]

and? well can do a whole other round of that and be fine. i still say everybody is jealous

 

[Mechagodzilla]

Putting all this aside, I think we can all agree that that 8 billion would have been better spent on security, counterterrorism and combatting Al Qaeda.
Since Saddam posed no real immediate threat, they could have at least postponed the Iraq invasion for a more stable time in the future.

Also, the book Plan Of Attack by Bob Woodward documents pretty clearly that the war in Iraq was planned based all but entirely on the assumption of WMDs, and when the CIA did put together their evidence of a link between Saddam and WMDs/Al-Qaeda, that assumption caused the administration to percieve the wishy-washy evidence as more solid than it really was, and was furthermore 'marketed' by the administration to be more threatening on top of that.

Evidence of an Iraqi nuclear program, as an example, was basically non-existant, despite repeated announcements to the contrary.
In fact, a significant portion of the official WMD accusations (as far as I can tell, the majority of them) were made well before evidence had been collected, and were entirely assumptions based on pre-1993 events.

WMD was mostly a public-relations motive for war. The real principal motivations were simply to remove Saddam and remove any Al-Qaeda terror ties.

Interaction between Al-Qaeda and Iraq did occur but I am unaware of anything taking place after 1996, and their relationship could be best described as weak, and at times directly adversarial. The 9/11 commission concluded that the limited contact between the two wasn't a sign of any real co-operative effort.
Compared to Al-Queda's much larger involvement with other countries, I'd tend to agree.

That leaves ousting Saddam as the only important reason for war, and, as I said earlier, that could have waited until the more imminent and dangerous threat of Al-Queda was more conclusively dealt with, especially since the rush to Iraq left the post-war action mostly unplanned and left the extremely productive DB/ROCKSTARS Iraq intelligence program largely underutilized.

So 8 billion dollars could have made airlines safer, funded intelligence or helped stabilize afghanistan.
Hell, for 8 billion America could have built an anti-terrorist space robot with gattling guns for eyes.

Edit:
And in response to whoever said Bush has no religious leanings in is policies, Bush spent over a billion dollars to promote "healthy marriages". More than he's spent on developing clean hydrogen power.

 

[Eg.]

mecha, its 80 billion

and there are two ways of handling it, ur way, which works long term. whiel ridding the world of terrorism around the world, we would get hit every few years.

with teh whole invading iraq thing, notice that all these terrorists seem to pop-up out of nowhere? there hasnt been an attack in america in over 4 years? there have been no major attacks on american land/citizens outside saudi arabia and iraq? by keeping the focus on iraq, our soldiers can go go off and kill the terrorists there, instead of letting cops in D.C worrying about gettting a warrant.

and we are building robots, they just only have shotguns now though

 

[burner69]

mecha, its 80 billion

and there are two ways of handling it, ur way, which works long term. whiel ridding the world of terrorism around the world, we would get hit every few years.

with teh whole invading iraq thing, notice that all these terrorists seem to pop-up out of nowhere? there hasnt been an attack in america in over 4 years? there have been no major attacks on american land/citizens outside saudi arabia and iraq? by keeping the focus on iraq, our soldiers can go go off and kill the terrorists there, instead of letting cops in D.C worrying about gettting a warrant.

and we are building robots, they just only have shotguns now though

You're fooling yourself.
You seriously think this war on terror is working? Have you seen the annual terrorist figures? Guess what, terrorism seems to be the new big thing.

 

[firemachine69]

Firemachine69, I really think you have to take your own advice. Calm down and grow up

I don't know what's your problem. If you can't see they're just as "abusive" as me, then you all have issues.

My point in short:

Debate. Yes, debating is wonderful. But keep in mind, lying (by posting those complete, utter lies, aka the untruthful links, spreading unjust propoganda) is jus as bad. Where did everyone's moral go?

And if you haven't noticed Sir moderator, he's always attacking me in every post I make. EVERY SINGLE ONE. That's abusive. I want to see him have some (justly deserved) points.




S'ok though. We'll point a gun to your head (ala Saddam regime style). See if you like it. Cause deep, deep down, that's what you're agreeing with.

It boils down to the fact that, yes, the US made a mistake. A BIG mistake, which was placing Saddam in power. They realized it afterwards. Get rid of Saddam. Shoot at US troops, you get shot yourself. Some stuff was unnacceptable, such as the shooting at the school. Punish those who deserve it. Back on track, find Saddam. Some see something good in him. Unfortunately, 99% of those who support him, support him with deadly measures. Which is a shame really. "Shoot or be shot" holds true to the utmost here. Eliminate the guerilla forces which are making it SEEM like there's a big war going down, when there really isn't a war anymore. More like a scruff. Get rid of them. Got Saddam. Stick UN sanctioned peacekeepers in the country (such as Canada). Get the hell out. Give them a bit of resources to re-build. Voila.

Some people, such as Cpt., watch wayyyy too much CNN...

 

[CptStern]

I don't know what's your problem. If you can't see they're just as "abusive" as me, then you all have issues.

excuse me? you said you hoped I was tortured to death ..if that isnt abusive I dont know what is

My point in short:

Debate. Yes, debating is wonderful. But keep in mind, lying (by posting those complete, utter lies, aka the untruthful links, spreading unjust propoganda) is jus as bad. Where did everyone's moral go?

so in other words we should tow the patriotic line and not think for ourselves? oh and if you think they're lies, why not prove it?

And if you haven't noticed Sir moderator, he's always attacking me in every post I make. EVERY SINGLE ONE. That's abusive. I want to see him have some (justly deserved) points.

attacking? show me where you think I unjustly attack you ..you personally, not your ideas. Cant take the heat get out of the kitchen

 

[Absinthe]

I don't know what's your problem. If you can't see they're just as "abusive" as me, then you all have issues.

I didn't tell anybody to cry to their mothers, nor did I wish death upon people. I don't recall Stern doing anything like that either.

Debate. Yes, debating is wonderful. But keep in mind, lying (by posting those complete, utter lies, aka the untruthful links, spreading unjust propoganda) is jus as bad. Where did everyone's moral go?

Who are you to decide what's factual and what isn't. In case you haven't noticed, all news sources are biased. We spend half the time picking apart each other's sources rather than addressing the issue itself.

S'ok though. We'll point a gun to your head (ala Saddam regime style). See if you like it.

???

 

[firemachine69]

excuse me? you said you hoped I was tortured to death ..if that isnt abusive I dont know what is

My point in short:



so in other words we should tow the patriotic line and not think for ourselves? oh and if you think they're lies, why not prove it?



attacking? show me where you think I unjustly attack you ..you personally, not your ideas. Cant take the heat get out of the kitchen

Every post I make, you always negatively attack every single word I say, however unjustified and untrue. Basically, pulling whatever shit out of your... just to get me going. I think hypocritical Mr. Moore deserves to be shot. You seem to be another Mr. Moore, god-only knows why.

Do I wish you were tortured? Many people have under the Saddam regime, but from what I gather, you were saying the US shouldn't have gone in at all (to fix their mistake), and Saddam should have continued his regime, torturing/ killing anyone who opposes him? Please correct me on how you're not supporting this, I can't see ANY reasonable human being support such grotesqueness.

Please tell me there's a bit more empathy for your fellow human beings THAT DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO DESERVE IT. If someone went to my folks house, killed my family, he sure as hell be prepared for a war, he went looking for it.

Yes, a mistake. Welcome to the real world. People make mistakes. It's not the mistakes you make that matters:
It's fixing them that counts.

Please, have some respect for those that are trying to keep you, and your fellow humans, free. Register under a new name, get it changed, whatever, cause you're disgracing every military force that's ever fought for freedom.

 

[No Limit]

Every post I make, you always negatively attack every single word I say, however unjustified and untrue. Basically, pulling whatever shit out of your... just to get me going. I think hypocritical Mr. Moore deserves to be shot. You seem to be another Mr. Moore, god-only knows why.

Do I wish you were tortured? Many people have under the Saddam regime, but from what I gather, you were saying the US shouldn't have gone in at all (to fix their mistake), and Saddam should have continued his regime, torturing/ killing anyone who opposes him?

Please tell me there's a bit more empathy for your fellow human beings THAT DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO DESERVE IT. If someone went to my folks house, killed my family, he sure as hell be prepared for a war, he went looking for it.

Please, have some respect for those that are trying to keep you, and your fellow humans, free. Register under a new name, get it changed, whatever, cause you're disgracing every military force that's ever fought for freedom.

Yes, pulling up a source for everything he says is the same as pulling it out of his ass. I don't know if the mods will mind this but it needs to be said...you are an idiot.

 

[firemachine69]

I meant legitimate sources. A site who obviously opposes the war isn't credible worth jack shit.

If this were a perfect world, there would have never been a need to get rid of Saddam. But unfortunately, there is. And those that follow him.

 

[burner69]

Why overthrow Saddam now?

I thought this was a war on terror, terrorism that threatens the western world. If we wanna go and overthrow dictators why not look at some other countries that are committing human rights attrocities... oh yeah, and stop selling them weapons too.

The US realised their mistake? BS. Why are they supporting another Saddam-alike to be put in power over there? Why did they continue to sell chemical weapons to Saddam after he gassed 5000 of his own people?

No one's supporting Saddam here. I can just as easily say you support 9/11 occuring because you support similar foreign policies that brought it about. You can try and make the left look as evil as you want, only a fool will listen to you.

 

[CptStern]

Every post I make, you always negatively attack every single word I say, however unjustified and untrue.

???????

prove it's untrue ..am I supposed to support your ideas just because you think it's justified? :upstare:

Basically, pulling whatever shit out of your... just to get me going.

ummmmm no, I provide evidence to back up my statements ..prove them wrong ..dont attack the messenger, attack the message

I think hypocritical Mr. Moore deserves to be shot. You seem to be another Mr. Moore, god-only knows why.

so in other words, you're implying I should be shot, just like moore ..btw last time I checked the death penalty didnt apply for people who excercise their right to free speech

Do I wish you were tortured? Many people have under the Saddam regime, but from what I gather, you were saying the US shouldn't have gone in at all

nope, not under the false pretenses the US created

(to fix their mistake)

got that right, shouldnt have propped and supported him ..you have only yourselves to blame for this

and Saddam should have continued his regime, torturing/ killing anyone who opposes him?

so you're saying the reason the US invaded Iraq was because saddam was a tyrant? the only justification the US used pre-invasion was WMD ..and we all know how the US found tons of the stuff just lying around all over iraq

Please tell me there's a bit more empathy for your fellow human beings THAT DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO DESERVE IT.

? ...you're kidding right? new here? ..the difference here is that my sympathy extends to all humans, not just those that wear an american flag on their shoulder

If someone went to my folks house, killed my family, he sure as hell be prepared for a war, he went looking for it.

you're not trying to say saddam had anything to do with 9/11 are you?

Please, have some respect for those that are trying to keep you, and your fellow humans, free.

free? free? FREEE??????? are you joking? is freedom installing a terrorist and murderer as the prime minister? is freedom killing hundreds of thousands of children through mal-nutrition and disease?????

Register under a new name, get it changed, whatever, cause you're disgracing every military force that's ever fought for freedom.

you must be joking? I'm not going to change my name to placate you ..here's a deal ..you go over to iraq and protest the thousands of iraqis killed since the invasion and I'll change my name ...oh btw I know what you're getting at but you couldnt be more wrong. ..Captain Sternn is a character in the movie "Heavy Metal" ..see my avatar? it has nothing to do with the military

 

[firemachine69]

You're a lost cause.

It's called "diplomatic greetings". It's not a choice. You'll get CNN/Fox all over your ass if you don't.

If that wasn't before they realized what kind of tyrant he really was. Again, a major mistake on the US's part.

On the mal-nutrition part:

Again, Saddam's doing. He held back like what? Over 10 Billions worth of food and support?

Justify that to me. He'd still be doing it, like right up until his last minutes in power.

9/11: No, not at all. I meant the moral of the house invasion scenario.


Like I said. The US made a huge mistake. They had to fix their mistake.

 

[CptStern]

You're a lost cause.

It's called "diplomatic greetings". It's not a choice. You'll get CNN/Fox all over your ass if you don't.

man, do the reasearch you're making a fool of yourself ..that picture was taken mere days after saddam had deployed WMD in Iran killing thousands of Iranian soldiers with nerve gas. Rumsfeld was there to RENEW ties with saddam and beef up contracts on chemical/weapon sales

If that wasn't before they realized what kind of tyrant he really was. Again, a major mistake on the US's part.

again do the research ..at the time of the photo saddam had committed his worst atrocities ..yet he was an ally ..nothing he did in the 90-'s compares tot he butchery he meted out in the 80's WHEN HE WAS AN ALLY of the US

Again, Saddam's doing. He held back like what? Over 10 Billions worth of food and support?

wrong ..the majority died from diseases aquired from not having clean drinking water (do the research) ..at one point it was 30,000 children under the age of 5 a month ..that's worse than Sierra leon that was in the middle of a civil war and has the most deplorable conditions in the world

Justify that to me. He'd still be doing it, like right up until his last minutes in power.

he would have been taken out decades before this war if not for US support (he was very unpopular in other neighbouring countries who saw him as far too western) not to mention that there were several attempts on his life

 

[firemachine69]

The US didn't like Iran either. But to suggest they didn't get a scolding behind the scenes... Come on, that was just bad bad publicity.

If I've got this correctly, you're suggesting the States knew way beforehand?

Auschtwitz, anyone?

 

[CptStern]

The US didn't like Iran either. But to suggest they didn't get a scolding behind the scenes... Come on, that was just bad bad publicity.

so that justifies the US selling WMD to saddam? isnt that why you invaded in the first place? oh btw they also sold weapons to Iran ..or are you forgetting the Iran-contra affair

If I've got this correctly, you're suggesting the States knew way beforehand?

yes, not only did they know about it ..they CAUSED it ..here's the document that proves it

 

[firemachine69]

Again, mis-placed friends. It just doesn't seem to get across to you.

But yes, I heed on the point you made about WMD. Good possibility there was (even fully knowing they didn't find any to date), but as you stated, not a just reason to go in.

The US prevented another Auschtwitz before it got out of hand. Just accept it. Again, the water dealie, should have been fixed. Bad mistake on the US's part to fuxxor up.

You just can't seem to agree on one sole thing with me:

The US made a mistake to place Saddam there, so the mistake had to and was fixed. End of story. Of course with that, there's including the removal of the guerilla forces. God only knows why they still support the bastard, but they're there. Collateral is part of the removal process, regardless of how nasty it is.

 

[CptStern]

mis-placed friends???? here's a list of "misplaced friends"

the Shah of Iran (1953)
"Papa Doc" Duvalier (Haiti)
"Baby Doc" Duvalier (Haiti)
General Castelo Branco (brazil)
General Suharto (Indonesia)
Mobutu Sese Seko (zaire)
Lon Nol (cambodia)
Augusto Pinochet (Chile)
Jonas Savimbi (angola)
Anastasios Samoza II (niceragua)
Ramón Mejia (honduras)
Manuel Noriega (panama)
Hugo Banzer (Bolivia)

that's just a sampling ...btw every last one of those men are responsible for genocide committed in their respective countries ...all backed by the CIA

The US prevented another Auschtwitz before it got out of hand. Just accept it. Again, the water dealie, should have been fixed. Bad mistake on the US's part to fuxxor up.

prevented?????? prevented? they CAUSED it!! there was no prevention ..read the document, it clearly says that by targeting the water system the civilian population would begin to see heavy casualities in as little as 6 months

 

[firemachine69]

Haven't they always tried to fix their mistakes however?

Regardless, I asked a question and didn't get an answer:

Do you or do you not agree Saddam had to be removed (however late or f*cked up previous circumstances were)?


(BTW, no "WEEELLLLL"s or "in this case"... a direct yes or no. Nothing else.)

 

[CptStern]

Haven't they always tried to fix their mistakes however?

no they havent ..research the names on that list

Regardless, I asked a question and didn't get an answer:

Do you or do you not agree Saddam had to be removed (however late or f*cked up previous circumstances were)?

NO!, who are you to pick and choose who needs to be disposed??? What about Rwanda, what about Sudan? what about the Congo? when there are legitamate countries that need help, where are you? fighting some other war of your own making. if anything YOU should have a regime change . The US continually causes more problems then it fixes ..every last one of the people mentioned in the list above where the US' making ..so much blood on your hands that you're swimming in it. The biggest threat to world security is NOT terrorism ..it's the US

(BTW, no "WEEELLLLL"s or "in this case"... a direct yes or no. Nothing else.)

so now that I directly answered your question why not answer mine?

1. do you think killing 500,000 iraqi children was justifiable
2. Do you think that the US was justified in vetoing a UN resolution brought by Iran to try saddam for crimes against humanity in the mid 80's?
3. Do you think it was ok for the US to CONTINUE to sell wmd to saddam even though the entire world was aware of the atrocities Iraq had committed?

BTW, no "WEEELLLLL"s or "in this case"... a direct yes or no. Nothing else

 

[Mechagodzilla]

mecha, its 80 billion

and there are two ways of handling it, ur way, which works long term. whiel ridding the world of terrorism around the world, we would get hit every few years.

with teh whole invading iraq thing, notice that all these terrorists seem to pop-up out of nowhere? there hasnt been an attack in america in over 4 years? there have been no major attacks on american land/citizens outside saudi arabia and iraq? by keeping the focus on iraq, our soldiers can go go off and kill the terrorists there, instead of letting cops in D.C worrying about gettting a warrant.

and we are building robots, they just only have shotguns now though

First of all, thanks for pointing out the missing zero. Damn that's a big number.

But what's with this excuse I'm always hearing? That the war is bait for terrorists, and now US forces can just kill them off by the thousands?
I'm sure I've heard at least five people make that identical line of reasoning, and it's not getting any lamer.

The point of the war in Iraq was to prevent terrorism.
Not to provoke massive amounts of terrorism, and then dumping it onto another country.
All those terrorists flooding into Iraq what you think is a windfall are actually a failure. A failure to properly secure a nation.

The point is to give them elections. How is that going to happen if you're simultaneously wishing to turn their cities into terrorist havens?
The point was to give them freedoms. But the suicide bombings and continuous warfare are really putting a dampener on that.
Iraqi civilians generally say that their quality of life is no different, or worse than, living under Saddam's regime.

The war was supposed to have ended a year ago. This current conflict is a mistake of terrible proportions. This 'bait' justiification is only putting a weak PR spin on the biggest US military screw-up since Vietnam.

Basically, your argument is "I don't want to be carbombed, so let's make sure terrorists bomb Iraqi civilians instead."
You're taking your greatest fear, and forcing other people to live it. The civilians, soldiers and Iraqi police that you're justifying as bait are dying by the thousands, even the tens of thousands.

Yeah, there haven't been attacks on the US. But there have been plenty elsewheres in the world. Osama bin Laden was broadcast on TV just three months ago. Al-Qaeda hasn't been stopped. It's been delayed.
80 billion spent instead on fighting Al-Qaeda would have literally saved over a hundred thousand lives in Iraq. Not to mention the lives saved from future attacks against western society.

And the reason Iraq has stopped attacking the US is that it has never attacked the US. It hasn't even shown any actual threat to any US citizen for over a decade. Terrorism simply did not exist in Iraq, at least not in the massive amounts that have occurred now that you've tried to save them from it.

All you're doing is shoving innocent people into an anthill and then using them as a footpath to walk across.
But from CIA reports and other evidence, it's clear that the people you're using as bait would now be pleased to drag you down with them. Terrorism is on the rise, and the Iraq war is fueling a new wave of anti-americanism, and subsequent terrorist recruitment.

The war in Iraq has created terrorism, and has fueled Al-Qaeda. It has given one small country over 5 concecutive 9/11s in death toll.
But at least they're not attacking you, right?

 

[Ardoramor]

Thats bull shit, sorry. What was I thinking, the right to go to starbucks on your lunch hour is far more important than a starving innocent child, and our soldiers wouldn't need protection if they weren't there in the first place. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if the iraqi people wanted change they would have brought it about themselves. Thats the way the world works, we shouldn't force our "freedoms" or our democracy on them.

We are no better than the "evil communists" of late when we do. You are very close minded seinfeld, look at the results. Iraq is a disaster, many have died and many more will die. The saddest part is, we've replaced a dictator with a puppet, (and if you don't think allawi will win then you are kidding yourself) These people are in no better shape right now than they were before the war.

I worked with a guy who was extremely against gay marriage and abortion and his answer to justify why he was against it was because his personal religous beliefs. He said he didn't want his tax dollars to pay for abortions or help gay marriages. Fine, but what if I don't want my tax dollars to pay for war and killing? I have no choice, even if my personal religous beliefs say otherwise?

This country is so screwed up its sad. The american people used to be good honest and compassionate people. Now we are scared vengeful bloodthirsty lunatics, its just to bad people like you can't see the shift this country has taken.

I'm sorry, I didn't read all the post but I saw this several times and want to make some comments... Both sides are right! It's America's money so we cant do anything about how they decided to spend it (or waste it?). I do not agree with Iraqi was and think thats all BS but I dont believe that Iraqi people would do anything about their "troubles" themselves... Look at Ukraine (I'm Ukrainian), post communistic government was BSing us ever since we got out "freedom" but we only realized it now... this BS was in Iraq for much longer period and people just dont notice it... its fine for them like that... you may say that I'm wrong but I'm not... what if you lived in a world w/o sweets... would you ever miss it or fight for them? You would have a slight idea that there should be something better then sour or salty food but you would never bother to explore. America is a good country and Americans are generaly good people. Its just that there are people who still carry old values with themselves and try to pass them on to newer generations. The real change will happen only then when old people will be replaced by new, young people... and yes, even if young ppl have old ideas, its always possible to relearn ... there is a saying that you cant teach an old dog new tricks... i think it applies here really well! I also have an opinion that US should stop supporting Isreal in war against Polestina... I mean, wth is that? Isralies are building a wall around Polestinian territory? Have they forgotten that Nazis did the same to them some 50 years ago? Did they like it? Eye for eye... I fear that "what goes around, comes around" will keep coming back to Israel and this war will never stop.

Some closing notes:
- In US vs. Iraq and Israel vs. Palestina, both sides are correct... they are all people that want to live... it is only empowered people that are thirsty for blood (maybe not even realizing it)
- I'm getting sick of hearing that halacast (or however you spell it) was only about Jewish people (plz dont flame me or warn me thinking that i dont like Jewish people because I dont have anything against them). It is wide spread in the US that only Jewish people were targeted by the Nazis. Slovanic (Polish, Bolgarian, Russian, Ukrainian, Moldovan, etc), Black, Disables, and some other groups were targeted as well. In fact, more Slovanic people died then Jewish (If I'm wrong, plz point me your source of information). I know that this wont change anyones opinions but it just gets to you sometimes... its like black people (hehe, I had friend that I met like that ) still accuse white people of slavery when only about 3% of white people were slave holders... Just to conclude my conclusion old minds have long been replaced by new ones and I can safely say that none of us here were victims or doers (hehe, dont know the right word) of slavery or nazism

hmmm... looking at what I typed, I have no idea how I jumped from war in Iraq to war slavery :S... just ignore this post...

hope there will be no hard feelings and if I have offended you in some way, I am sorry and didn't mean to!