Could God commit suicide?

[mechanicallizard]

God is dead and we killed him

i didnt do it. dont try pin it on me. he killed himself.

 

[99.vikram]

God is dead
And no one cares
If there is a hell
I'll see you there!

 

[Rizzo]

I did. Also america as i said is to blame.

 

[BetaMaster]

I blame your avatar.

 

[PvtRyan]

Lawl, "free will".

"A man can do as he wills, but he cannot will as he wills." - Schopenhauer

The best description of "free will" that I've read.

 

[freakyflor]

This entire discussion is moot. God is dead and we killed him.

I didn't do it. I blame the muslims.

 

[Lizardizzle]

he cant..... because he doesn't exist. I win ^-^.

 

[Azner]

Lol no, God doesnt go by human understanding.

Hes God. Please.

(All this said in our belief, ofcourse)

 

[Nomad]

I didn't do it. I blame the muslims.

char

 

[Sheepo]

I did. Also america as i said is to blame.

Oh lulz. YOu is so funny making funneh and uneeque makin fun of amerika like dat.

 

[Jintor]

Lol no, God doesnt go by human understanding.

Hes God. Please.

(All this said in our belief, ofcourse)

It's such a brilliant escape clause. "DON'T TRY AND UNDERSTAND ME I'M TOO AWESOME FOR YOU TO COMPREHEND WHAT I'M DOING. JUST REST ASSURED IT'S ALL FOR THE GREATER GOOD."

I want that escape clause.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Lawl, "free will".

"A man can do as he wills, but he cannot will as he wills." - Schopenhauer

The best description of "free will" that I've read.

One does wonder why God would give us free will and then put us into a world that so constantly, unequivocally and universally deprived us of choice.

 

[Sheepo]

You should close it, because the puns will drasticly decline in quality from there.

Edit: How the hell did I get in this thread?

 

[Pesmerga]

It's such a brilliant escape clause. "DON'T TRY AND UNDERSTAND ME I'M TOO AWESOME FOR YOU TO COMPREHEND WHAT I'M DOING. JUST REST ASSURED IT'S ALL FOR THE GREATER GOOD."

I want that escape clause.

Back out of yourself for a moment. There are many things the human mind can't really grasp at a non-conceptual level. Time, the second dimension, the first dimension, various senses like sonar and the nonvisible spectrums, gravity, nuclear forces, etc.

If you don't agree with the idea of God, fine. If you want to try and combat other people's beliefs by verbally assaulting them, go blow yourself. It's stupid, ineffective, and makes you and your own beliefs sound equally as stupid as you're trying to make God sound.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I think his statement implicitly assumes that God is a being with an obligation to explain Himself to us. It's the old "why should I have faith in a God who does not bother to make himself believable".

 

[Azner]

It's such a brilliant escape clause. "DON'T TRY AND UNDERSTAND ME I'M TOO AWESOME FOR YOU TO COMPREHEND WHAT I'M DOING. JUST REST ASSURED IT'S ALL FOR THE GREATER GOOD."

I want that escape clause.

Well think about it.

He is God, God is God. Its the word G-O-D for a reason, not like, big boss or tao(leader), its God. Also, i said it that in belief, so therefore well, since you are not of the same thinking, you can reject it. I never said that it was for everyone.

Also, L4D LATER MOTHERF*CKER

 

[Pesmerga]

It's the old "why should I have faith in a God who does not bother to make himself believable".

Apparently there was this guy who did a bunch of awesome things and everyone really liked him. I mean, why attack something clearly out of the bounds of logic and rationality with... logic and rationality.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Because it presumes to ask us to follow certain rules during our lives in that temporal world, within which logic and rationality are key tools?

 

[nipples]

One does wonder why God would give us free will and then put us into a world that so constantly, unequivocally and universally deprived us of choice.

Not true, you always have a choice. You don't have to go to work in the morning, you don't have to pay taxes, etc. etc. You chose to do these things, rather reluctantly unless you are a freak.

 

[Pesmerga]

God's message to humanity is a convoluted subject- I argue that one cannot logically disprove a concept that is illogical to begin with. Obviously, if it did exist, it would operate outside the realm of rationality and quantifiance, with some kind of arbiter that communicated between the world of impossibility and our world.

One could also argue that God can be explained as any unexplained scientific phenomena, or, in short, the dark side of the universe.

Not true, you always have a choice. You don't have to go to work in the morning, you don't have to pay taxes, etc. etc. You chose to do these things, rather reluctantly unless you are a freak.

I believe Sulkdodds was trying to express the error in giving humanity free will, then depriving them of choice.

However I think that in the classical sense, one's choices determine their paths to heaven and hell.

 

[Sulkdodds]

God's message to humanity is a convoluted subject- I argue that one cannot logically disprove a concept that is illogical to begin with. Obviously, if it did exist, it would operate outside the realm of rationality and quantifiance, with some kind of arbiter that communicated between the world of impossibility and our world.

When a religious person freely admits this, then the debate becomes about what's acceptable criteria for belief and action. The atheist would perhaps argue that something outside quantifiability should simply be discounted. However, the religious person doesn't usually concede this.

You've still got the problem that God As Chaos, Irrational Other is trying to intrude into the 'secular' realm of quanitifiability by making up rules that we should have to follow, and then having these power-structures that try to justify things in earth-logic. I'm of the opinion personally (allowing my personal opinion to intrude explicitly rather than sneakily into the debate for a moment) that no decent God would ask anyone to have to follow principles that are actually impossible to understand by the standards of the world in which they are forced (by this same being!) to live.

One could also argue that God can be explained as any unexplained scientific phenomena, or, in short, the dark side of the universe.

Such an argument would rest on a definition of God that is drastically different from what we currently mean when we say the word (i.e. personal, personform diety).

 

[nipples]

If God does exist, how would we even be able to interpret its thoughts in the first place? Surely its "brain" would be the equivalent of every brain in the world combined, x, xE99999999999999999999999999999. All the smart brains that is.

 

[Pesmerga]

I'm of the opinion personally (allowing my personal opinion to intrude explicitly rather than sneakily into the debate for a moment) that no decent God would ask anyone to have to follow principles that are actually impossible to understand by the standards of the world in which they are forced (by this same being!) to live.

In which case, faith is the necessity to follow said impossible principles. Believing without logical proof, for our human understandings of logic are, somehow, flawed and limited. In such arguments, I tend to throw out any traditional wisdoms of God and Christian creation stories.

If there were to be a God, a higher power, something omnipotent and immortal and infinite- a paradox to any form of correct logic, it would obviously be unprovable. What it wants with humanity is unknown. Is it evil, good, neutral? Is it active, or does it just simply react like gravity or matter, dispassionate.

I'm not postulating that something like it does exist, only that it could- and if it does, it would be impossible to comprehend. Personally, I think the universe is a simple place and will soon all be explained and all the mystery we once tied with our beginnings and ends will become academic. But I like to wonder.

 

[Sulkdodds]

I wish I could say I find it an interesting possibility; I don't. In any case, with it accepted, the debate will always become about whether that kind of baseless faith is ever appropriate at all. And that's a pretty boring debate, really.

In conclusion, God could commit suicide, because it's awesome.

 

[The Monkey]

Such an argument would rest on a definition of God that is drastically different from what we currently mean when we say the word (i.e. personal, personform diety).

You are stuck in a Western line of thought. God doesn't have to be a person, he can also be (or represent) something, a force, a thought, a truth, the universe, or even a river.

 

[G(ordon)-man]

You know, Estonia is the most less christian country in EU. But it believes more into a higher force that guides us.

 

[Sulkdodds]

You are stuck in a Western line of thought. God doesn't have to be a person, he can also be (or represent) something, a force, a thought, a truth, the universe, or even a river.

Of course I am in a western line of thought. We are discussing the concept of God in the english language, and we are not discussing th concept of a metaphor, a force, a thought, a truth, the universe or even a river. The word 'God' has a meaning and connotations, and if we want to discuss another concept, we should use another word or at least make it known that our definition of 'God' is for the purposes of the discussion going to be different or wider.

 

[NeptuneUK]

God is dead
And no one cares
If there is a hell
I'll see you there!

Epic <3

 

[Maestro]

This is an extension of the Problem of Omnipotence.

"Can God create a rock that not even He could lift?"

Two valid answers:
1. Of course not, he's all powerful!
2. Of course he can, he can do anything!

Both of these are contradictory, so there is no solution to the problem that does not involve limiting God's power. In short, it is impossible for anything to be "all-powerful" for this very reason.

A further extension of this is that God cannot be all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good at the same time:

1. We observe that there exists evil and suffering int he world.
2. If God be all-knowing, he must know of this evil, so why does he not stop it?
3. If God be all-powerful, then he chooses to not stop it, which would make him evil.
4. If God be all-good, then he must not be all powerful, because he would certainly choose to stop it.
5. If God is not all-knowing, why call him God?

Some possible answers:
1. The world is already the best it can possibly be.
2. God promotes "higher-order good" by allowing "lower order evil"
3. God is some combination of all-powerful, all-good, and all-knowing, but not all three
4. God does not exist.

You've never read the Bible, have you?

There is evil because God has allowed free will, God told Adam and Eve not to eat the apple but he gave them free will. With that they chose to partake of the Tree of Knowledge and thus became sinners for disobeying God. The cause for evil is Satan if you look at the root of the problem.

Let me ask you this: the only way for God to stop evil is to control people, which violates free will, would you want God to control you like a puppet so there is no suffering or would you rather have freedom? I am thankful God has let me choose the latter.

Your logic is flawed and you have obviously never taken an in-depth look at God or the Bible.

PS - No God can't commit suicide! The simplest reason being it's ordained a sin by the big man Himself! God can't sin, so the logic here would be of course God can't commit suicide. The other thing I ask is if he could, why would he?

 

[Azner]

Maestro, we have to speak in a way that we can relate to them. I mean we throwing our ideas wont help unless they themselves have thought hard about it, so we have to slowly build up for them to see where we are going (Considering they're thinking with an open mind not "THERE IS NO GOD BALBLABLA"

Well this question is like who created God and such. My favorite childhood question.

 

[G(ordon)-man]

God can't sin,

But how did the Jesus born? :3

 

[Azner]

But how did the Jesus born? :3

I.. I.. I.. (lawl)

Anyway, my Atheist buddies (love you guys) you guys should really talk to the Theologians concerning such questions, you get good answers!

 

[PvtRyan]

One does wonder why God would give us free will and then put us into a world that so constantly, unequivocally and universally deprived us of choice.

That's not what I'm trying to say, actually. The thing is: there is no free will at all.

Free will means that you're free to do as you want, and in the end God will judge your choices. However, you have absolutely no control over what you want. For example, if a gay guy decides to not be gay to conform to God's petty wishes, it's not because he exercised free will, it's because his fear of God's retribution and shame over what he is, is greater than the desire to cornhole other men.

A 'choice' is merely the weighing of the relevant variables in your brain. A 'free choice' would mean making a choice without the influence of those variables. A choice in a vacuum, a complete vacuum which doesn't even include the influence of your brain.

There's always reasons behind what you want, and if given all the variables, you could predict all choices someone makes, give or take randomness introduced by quantum scale uncertainty, if that even has influence on the macroscopic world. But the universe not being deterministic does not mean, unlike what some claim, that free will exists, it just means that your choices might be partially random.

Hence "a man can do as he wills, but not will as he wills".

 

[The Monkey]

Of course I am in a western line of thought. We are discussing the concept of God in the english language, and we are not discussing th concept of a metaphor, a force, a thought, a truth, the universe or even a river. The word 'God' has a meaning and connotations, and if we want to discuss another concept, we should use another word or at least make it known that our definition of 'God' is for the purposes of the discussion going to be different or wider.

But God was never a strictly clear definition. Even within the Bible God took many and often contradictory forms and different interpretations of the Bible may yield many other forms, some reminiscent of the Hindu concepts. And then there're the jewish and muslim forms of God, though while influenced and influential by and on Christianity and eachother, differ somewhat from it.

We must take into account all accounts of forms of "God" when having a discussion like this.