Couple arrested for spanking son, son lies to police

[Sedako]

Worcestershire, England:

There was nothing ominous about the knock at the door, but when I pulled it open I was confronted by four police officers and our street was thick with panda cars. This is not a scene you see too often in our home village of Great Malvern, not even if there has been a rare burglary in the respectable part of Worcestershire where we live happily among other decent, law-abiding families. But the police were not coming to our aid. Instead they were coming to arrest me and my husband Folke for child abuse. Looking me straight in the eye the officer said: "We are about to arrest you for cruelty and neglect to Guy Pope."

Guy is our 11-year-old son. And my crime? Smacking him once after he had ignored my warnings to stop his temper tantrum and repeated swearing. He and his 16-year-old brother, Oliver, had then concocted a tissue of lies claiming we had starved and beaten them and - far worse in their eyes - refused to let them have their games consoles. But rather than examining my well-fed younger son and his unmarked, if rebellious brother, the police had called in social services and arrested us.

Seems in today's world, parents are losing more and more of their child raising rights to government intervention. Some may argue that it's the parents' fault for letting their kids hand around with the wrong crowd, but whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Authorities seemed so quick to believe the words of a minor when there was nothing visibly wrong with him to prove he was telling the truth.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...in_article_id=557440&in_page_id=1766&ito=1490

Edit: posted this in the wrong section, request a move to the lounge please!

 

[Vegeta897]

Well, I suppose it's better to arrest and find out later that what the children said isn't true, than for the cops to turn away at situations like that and leave abused children with their abusive parents if the parents were able to cover it up. You never know.

 

[Qonfused]

The whole article was a good read.

I'm glad she's going after the officials in this case. Her losing her job is way out of line, but I'm not sure if anything is going to come out suing social services.

 

[Sedako]

I think it would have been better to do an investigation of the family first before they decided to arrest the parents. Seems very hasty the way they went about it. I'm sure by simple talking to the kids first, they could have somewhat discerned the legitimacy of what the kids claimed, and then went from there. Plus, the way social services were treating the parents seemed highly unprofessional and rude.

 

[CyberPitz]

*Insert 'back in the day we smacked our kids' comment*

Really, this is a bunch of crap. This is why parents are afraid to beat their kids when they deserve it. *No, not punching and stuff, but spanks and real discipline.* Kid just gets the idea to lie about what happens, SUCCESS!

 

[Pesmerga]

I'm just going to hit my kid harder if he tells the cops I hit him.

 

[SamuraiKenji]

WHAT THE **** IS THIS?!
How the hell can they do that?!
Im disgusted
Just...ugh forget it >..>

 

[Krynn72]

Hah... sucks for the kids. Now they'll never get their console systems, and their parents can beat and starve them, and nobody will ever believe them again.



I'd make a great parent.

 

[Link]

Waits by the wall for the civil libitarians to show up. viva la revolution...

 

[FishBulb]

Reminds me of Russell Peters.

"If I phone Children's Aid, you'll get in trouble!"
"I might get into a little bit of trouble, but I know that it's going to take them 23 minutes to get here. In that time, somebody gonna get a hurt real bad!"

 

[repiV]

And this is why British kids are piece of shit oxygen thieving little vermin. They think they can behave any way they want, and they're usually correct.

 

[Cormeh]

Daily Mail...... **** it, two pennies:

Forgive my fairly old attitude, but if I was out of line as a kid, I got a smack on the bum or on the back of the legs. I didn't get a beating for ****s sake, but I got a clout to remind me that I was being bad and needed to behave.

I'm not saying that physical discipline is what everyone should use to control their kids, but in a case like this, they probably deserved a belt.

Kids these days are too ****ing smart for their own good. They get fed, clothed and kept and this is their attitude, "if you discipline me, I'll go to the police." Very good. I sometimes wonder if I'll ever have kids.

 

[highlander]

I'm just going to hit my kid harder if he tells the cops I hit him.

This.

 

[Operational]

60 years ago people didn't trust kids, now there is a 'kids are innocent' mentality which is bullshit. Kids are very devient and skilled in getting what they want.

 

[Dax]

Goddamnit, this makes me want to beat up some kids real bad. Lying smelly good-for-nothing little bastards!

 

[DreamThrall]

That article is disgusting. Poor parents...

 

[CptStern]

And this is why British kids are piece of shit oxygen thieving little vermin. They think they can behave any way they want, and they're usually correct.

oh come on, that's more than a little overgeneralised





anyways Child services has to follow up on complaints ..like any other enforcement agency following procedure in an investigation takes time ..I somewhat sympathize with the parents in that they got railroaded by the system ..unforenately sometimes innocent people get investigated but in cases of real abuse their methods are warrented ..for example in a case of real abuse say a sexual molestation or abusive parent case, taking away thechildren is the smartest thing to do

that said I think their was a breakdown in discipline from an early onset that led to the behaviour problems ..had she developed better strategies to deal with behaviour she could have avoided this

oh and there's never a reason to spank a child: it's a parent reaction to a behaviour ..she herself says as much when she says this:

When they returned, there was more trouble. Guy said "F*** off, you cow" to me once too often, so I smacked him once on the backside, firmly but not hard.

she's justifying her use of force by saying it wasnt hard ..so then what are you tryig to say to the child by "spanking him lightly"? ..if anything that does far more harm than good as it shows the kid that the ultimate consequence (spanking) isnt that bad

Smacking is a last resort, but Folke and I believe it is our right as parents to administer this punishment if absolutely necessary.

ya well you can believe anything you want, doesnt make it right ..where is the cut off point? bruising? bleeding? a low self esteem?

there are no easy answers in how to stop a child from acting out inappropriately ..however as a parent it is their responsiiblity to prevent it from getting to that point in the first place

I mean she's doling out blame on everyone except those directly responsible: the kids and parents

she blamed her son's behaviour on his friend and his friends family
she blames the system for what happened, and recinds any responbility on the part of her sons when she says:

Of course, we don't blame the children - they can't possibly have known what was going to happen.

wtf. she just made this whole thing completely pointless in terms of teaching her children to have responsibilities for their actions



I also cant help but notice how the final point to the article is that "parents need to have the right to smack their children" ..she manipulates the event to hit on a few key points that seems right out of the old school mentality that discipline can only be meted with with force or the threat of force ....but this is the daily mail

 

[Que-Ever]

If any kid told me to **** off he'd be picking himself up off the floor.

 

[Kyorisu]

I was hit, had my hair pulled and all manor of physical abuse as a child and I'm a perfectly capable human being. That doesn't make it right by any means just that it can be an effective tool when used in conjunction with other non physical punishments. A large majority of parents these days are just plain lazy.

 

[CptStern]

I was hit, had my hair pulled and all manor of physical abuse as a child and I'm a perfectly capable human being. That doesn't make it right by any means just that it can be an effective tool when used in conjunction with other non physical punishments. A large majority of parents these days are just plain lazy.

what did you learn from having your hair pulled?

I got smacked around by my dad and the most I got out of it was intense hatred for my dad (it's not like that now)

 

[Kyorisu]

what did you learn from having your hair pulled?

That whatever I did was an incredibly stupid thing to do. Likely that was when I threw a chair at a teacher one day. Honestly I would have done it again if I was just told off or given some mundane form of punishment.

I got smacked around by my dad and the most I got out of it was intense hatred for my dad (it's not like that now)

Hey you grew up with your father that's one up on me. Mine ran away like a coward and is just cheap all round. I don't mind being around him these days but his effect on my brother pisses me off just a tad.

 

[Link]

The function of smacking is not actually to hurt the child, thats a side effect. It is to make the child understand that what it is doing/sying is unacceptable.

Its also about balance and perception. My father for example would be beated with a leather belt when he was naughty as a child, which in those days was considered harsh, but not shocking. For my own part, I got the odd smacking, usually on my arse, but once or twice, around the side of my head. Again, this was considered harsh, but not shocking. Now adays, your not allowed to touch your own children without social services removing them.

Remember, the function of pain (In evolutionary terms) is to teach the recipient not to do whatever it did. Don't touch that nettle/hot plate/moving vehicle, says pain. Smacking allows parents to use this to teach about other things they should not do.

 

[CptStern]

That whatever I did was an incredibly stupid thing to do. Likely that was when I threw a chair at a teacher one day. Honestly I would have done it again if I was just told off or given some mundane form of punishment.

so you learned to fear the consequence more than why what you were doing was wrong..my first ithought when caught doing something wrong was: "my dad is going to kill me" .. instead of "oh shit that was the wrong thing to do now I'm going to have to make amends"

Hey you grew up with your father that's one up on me. Mine ran away like a coward and is just cheap all round. I don't mind being around him these days but his effect on my brother pisses me off just a tad.

seems like you have some unresolved issues that have been brewing for a long time

 

[Kyorisu]

so you learned to fear the consequence more than why what you were doing was wrong..my first ithought when caught doing something wrong was: "my dad is going to kill me" .. instead of "oh shit that was the wrong thing to do now I'm going to have to make amends"

But the important thing to remember is now I realise what I did was wrong. Whether or not I did at the time as a child is irrelevant now. Fear is a very powerful tool and I see little harm is using it sparingly to raise a child if circumstances deem it necessary.

seems like you have some unresolved issues that have been brewing for a long time

Indeed.

 

[Cormeh]

so you learned to fear the consequence more than why what you were doing was wrong..my first ithought when caught doing something wrong was: "my dad is going to kill me" .. instead of "oh shit that was the wrong thing to do now I'm going to have to make amends"

When I got caught that's what I thought too. It's surely part and parcel of growing up, you don't think about what it is you're doing until someone has dealt with you and shown you the consequences.

If I was doing something bad, it was running the risk and I bloody well knew it. Not why doing it was bad, but why getting caught is bad.

 

[CptStern]

But the important thing to remember is now I realise what I did was wrong. Whether or not I did at the time as a child is irrelevant now. Fear is a very powerful tool and I see little harm is using it sparingly to raise a child if circumstances deem it necessary.

use of fear as discipline is the lazy man's way out ..it's far harder to instill discipline without using fear/force

and personally I dont think there's ever a circumstance where beating my child is necessary ..I havent hit either of my kids and dont ever intend to

The function of smacking is not actually to hurt the child, thats a side effect. It is to make the child understand that what it is doing/sying is unacceptable.

like smacking a puppy with a rolled up newspaper because it pisses on the carpet ..gotcha

Remember, the function of pain (In evolutionary terms) is to teach the recipient not to do whatever it did. Don't touch that nettle/hot plate/moving vehicle, says pain.

yet my 4 year old son knows to stay away from the stove even if it's not on ...despite never being burnt

Smacking allows parents to use this to teach about other things they should not do.

which can be taught without smacking ..it's just easier to smack the child than deal with the behaviour

 

[99.vikram]

Explaining in logical terms why something is wrong is probably the best method. If that fails, use a punishment (force the kid to stay in one room/miss TV etc.). But having seen cousins grow up around me, I am in favour of parents' right to spank kids. Sometimes nothing deters them but pain.

Then again what do I know about parenthood..

 

[Eejit]

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?t=140912
Can we get a thread merge please?

 

[99.vikram]

Explaining in logical terms why something is wrong is probably the best method. If that fails, use a punishment (force the kid to stay in one room/miss TV etc.). But having seen cousins grow up around me, I am in favour of parents' right to spank kids. Sometimes nothing deters them but pain.

Then again what do I know about parenthood..

 

[Sedako]

I plan on using spankings and what not as a form of punishment when I have children. My parents did it to me when I was young, and from my point of view as an adult now, I would have to admit that it was one of the things that kept me from making some bad decisions. In the end it's up to the parents to raise their children as they see fit, as long as it doesn't hurt them either physically or mentally in the long run.

I will tell you though... my girlfriend's aunt has two younger children, neither of which have ever been hit as punishment, just told calmly that certain behaviors are unacceptable. As of now, they are two of the worst behaved children I've ever seen.

 

[CptStern]

out of curiosity ..at what age shoud spanking begin?



sample behavioural problem:

my brother in laws birthday yesterday, he asks my son where we should go to celebrate (big mistake) ..he says Chuck E Cheese (asked me on the way there why they dont sell cheese) ..so I'm sitting with my 20 month old daughter, she grabs the cup with tokens and is playing with the coins ..she starts putting some of the coins in her mouth ..now anyones instinct would be to tell her to take them out of her mouth (first mistake) followed by forcibly removing them from her hand (second mistake)

ok so if I say to her "dont put it in your mouth" ..she'll immediatrely put them in her mouth (to get a reaction out of me)

so if I pull it out of her hand she'll immediately throw a tantrum (completely escalating the problem) so now you have a screaming child who doesnt understand why she had the coins taken from her mouth


what's the solution?

I will tell you though... my girlfriend's aunt has two younger children, neither of which have never been hit as punishment, just told calmly that certain behaviors are unacceptable. As of now, they are two of the worst behaved children I've ever seen.

she's not doing it right

 

[Bad^Hat]

You know what I find fascinating about this?

This thread has been going for nearly full two pages and noone has noticed it's in the wrong forum.

 

[Sedako]

out of curiosity ..at what age shoud spanking begin?

Definitely not any younger than 2, but I would feel comfortable starting physical punishment at around 3 or 4. Nothing hard at that point, just enough to let them know that the way they're acting will result in an unpleasant experience. Too many times have I seen a child throw a temper tantrum with the parent only using harsh vocal punishment with little to no avail.

she's not doing it right

Yes, I realize that. We all do, but she refuses to raise them any differently. If that's the way she wants to raise them, then it's her choice and she should not be forced otherwise.

 

[Operational]

what's the solution?

x = 3

 

[Krynn72]

You know what I find fascinating about this?

This thread has been going for nearly full two pages and noone has noticed it's in the wrong forum.

hahah, I totally didnt even realize that.

 

[DreamThrall]

The point of the article isn't whether spanking is right or wrong... some parents choose to use it, some parents choose to not use it. The point is that the police and child services severely overreacted to some punk teenager acting out on his parents, and continued to do so even after it was apparent that the children weren't being abused (at least according to the law, if not CptStern). I'm not saying that the claim shouldn't have been investigated - but incarcerating the parents for 36 hours and placing them on whatever register they were placed on was a gross overreaction which ended up ruining the poor woman's career over an issue that should've been left to the family to resolve.

 

[Rapstah]

The logic going on here seems to be "but I was beat when I was a kid, I have the right to give my kids the same treatment!".

 

[CptStern]

The point of the article isn't whether spanking is right or wrong... some parents choose to use it, some parents choose to not use it. The point is that the police and child services severely overreacted to some punk teenager acting out on his parents, and continued to do so even after it was apparent that the children weren't being abused (at least according to the law, if not CptStern). I'm not saying that the claim shouldn't have been investigated - but incarcerating the parents for 36 hours and placing them on whatever register they were placed on was a gross overreaction which ended up ruining the poor woman's career over an issue that should've been left to the family to resolve.

agreed, however if the allegations turned out to be correct we wouldnt be discussing this issue because we'd all agree it was justifiable ..still doesnt erase what they had to go through, it's unforetunate but there has to be some measures ut into place to protect children from abusive parents

 

[Seppo]

lol

reminds me of that south park episode where the kids lie about their parents molesting them.

 

[Pesmerga]

The logic going on here seems to be "but I was beat when I was a kid, I have the right to give my kids the same treatment!".

Woah, there's a HUGE GAP between beating and spanking.

Physical discipline is definitely something I'm for as a last resort. But not physical abuse- breaking bones, leaving bruises, starving, etc. I know that when I was spanked, it wasn't the spanking that hurt, it was the terrifying gaze from my parents and the humiliation of having your slacks dropped.