Creationism to be taught in Wisconsin Schools

CptStern

CptStern

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I thought this was long dead and buried ...since when should schools teach theories based on faith rather than facts? If they're going to teach creationism they should also allow for other creation mythos from other religions ...why not native indian or hindu creation mythologies? why only creationism according to christianity?

Evolution flap flares up in Wisconsin
 
Well I guess its not surprising, Creationists have recently been really fighting to get creationism taught in schools again while evolutionists have seemingly stopped fighting altogether.

Its definately too bad though, the few people that still believe in creationism over evolution are either ignorant of biology, or so religious that they are unwilling to consider anything else.
 
Well with Bush's reelection you expect more things like this (though I am not directly blaming Bush for this incident).

However, I don't have a huge problem with them teaching this as long as they teach other theories, specifically evolution and they do it in a open way (not preach the christian faith for example).
 
No Limit said:
(though I am not directly blaming Bush for this incident).
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that's good, b/c this is clearly bill clinton's fault :angry:

However, I don't have a huge problem with them teaching this as long as they teach other theories, specifically evolution and they do it in a open way (not preach the christian faith for example).
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well, there really is no other way to teach creationism, it's based on very specific interpretations of the bible. it'd be akin to teaching history from tolkien's ring books. it's wrong and shouldn't be done under the guise of pedagogy. if it were wholly separated into an optional "religious studies" class, that'd be different.
 
If Creationism is going to be taught in school, then it should be taught along with the theory of evolution and creationism from other religions.

...

No, wait. That's a position I might have adopted a year or two ago. But now I believe that teaching this in school, unless relegated to a course pertaining to the study of religion, is just wrong. Period.

Creationism is faith-based and is not scientifically or factually backed up. For that reason, it should not be taught as suck. Some people may cry out about hypocrisy. These people just don't get it. The theory of evolution not only has a degree of scientific credibility, but it is something that can be seen all around us. You can investigate it and test it. As such, it can be taught as a theory.

Faith, however, should stay outside of the schools where it belongs. It is belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. Such a thing does not belong on a school curriculum.
 
This is a quote from the November issue of National Geographic. The front cover article is titled "Was Darwin Wrong?" (The answer in the article is no, he was completely right).
If you are skeptical by nature, unfamiliar with the terminology of science, and unaware of the overwhelming evidence, you might even be tempted to say that [evolution] is "just" a theory. In the same sense, relativity as described by Albert Einstein is "just" a theory. The notion that Earth orbits around the sun rather than vice versa, offered by Copernicus in 1543, is a theory, Continental drift is a theory. The existence, structure, and dynamics of atoms? Atomic theory. Even electricity is a theoretical construct, involving electrons, which are tiny untis of charged mass that no one has ever seen. Each of these theories is an explanation that has been confirmed to such a degree, by observation and experiment, that knowledgeable experts accept it as fact.
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I just thought it would be appropriate here.
 
If Creationism is going to be taught, Science must have a part in it. If this, creationism, that is going to be taught, would be more roadway to, "omfg hate teh gays wub god", I'll be totally against it.

A Public school is for the public--creationism has no part in it.
 
Lil' Timmy said:
that's good, b/c this is clearly bill clinton's fault :angry:

well, there really is no other way to teach creationism, it's based on very specific interpretations of the bible. it'd be akin to teaching history from tolkien's ring books. it's wrong and shouldn't be done under the guise of pedagogy. if it were wholly separated into an optional "religious studies" class, that'd be different.
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If you are going to teach evolution I think you have to teach the other side. I know some people find it amazing but a lot of people do actually believe the idea of creationism. But like I said, it should be done in a way that doesn't preach a certain faith, it should simply give the ideas of the theory and leave it at that.
 
No Limit said:
If you are going to teach evolution I think you have to teach the other side. I know some people find it amazing but a lot of people do actually believe the idea of creationism. But like I said, it should be done in a way that doesn't preach a certain faith, it should simply give the ideas of the theory and leave it at that.
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that's not really possible as each individual religion has it's own creation myth ..which would be more suited for a religious-studies class
 
No Limit said:
If you are going to teach evolution I think you have to teach the other side. I know some people find it amazing but a lot of people do actually believe the idea of creationism. But like I said, it should be done in a way that doesn't preach a certain faith, it should simply give the ideas of the theory and leave it at that.
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the "other side" is falsity. should we teach flat-earth too? some people believe that too. obviously people's beliefs are not a criterion for what should be considered a valid outlook on the world. it's not hard to believe that lots of people believe in complete nonsense, look around you. but a public school is not he place to teach a doctrine of nonsense, plain and simple. i'm all for a "bible study" type class, in which the instructor could talk about creationism to their heart's content. but creationism is not the "other side" of evolution... it's just denial.
 
Lil' Timmy said:
the "other side" is falsity. should we teach flat-earth too? some people believe that too. obviously people's beliefs are not a criterion for what should be considered a valid outlook on the world. it's not hard to believe that lots of people believe in complete nonsense, look around you. but a public school is not he place to teach a doctrine of nonsense, plain and simple. i'm all for a "bible study" type class, in which the instructor could talk about creationism to their heart's content. but creationism is not the "other side" of evolution... it's just denial.
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But what gives you the right to say that evolution is right and everything else is false. This is no better than the religious fanatics that think they are 100% right and everyone else is wrong. We are still a very religious society, you can argue that evolution is anti-religion so because of this I think you need to teach creationism to keep things fair. Obviously it all depends on how that creationism is taught and since I don't know how it will be taught I can't really defend it. Anyone have any links to the lesson plan or anything similar for this?
 
No Limit said:
But what gives you the right to say that evolution is right and everything else is false. This is no better than the religious fanatics that think they are 100% right and everyone else is wrong. We are still a very religious society, you can argue that evolution is anti-religion so because of this I think you need to teach creationism to keep things fair. Obviously it all depends on how that creationism is taught and since I don't know how it will be taught I can't really defend it. Anyone have any links to the lesson plan or anything similar for this?
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Evolution is not anti-religion. Many Christians believe in evolution. It's the fundamentalists that have an issue with it.

And, as I said before, faith serves no purpose on a school curriculum. Evolutionary theory is acceptable because it is scientific in nature. There is nothing scientific about Creationism. It should be relegated to a course on the study of religion.
 
yes but the problem that lil timmy brought up is facts ...you dont teach something that isnt factual in science ...you can measure evolution, you cant quantify a theory based on faith, there is no evidence to back up creationism
 
No Limit said:
But what gives you the right to say that evolution is right and everything else is false. This is no better than the religious fanatics that think they are 100% right and everyone else is wrong. We are still a very religious society, you can argue that evolution is anti-religion so because of this I think you need to teach creationism to keep things fair. Obviously it all depends on how that creationism is taught and since I don't know how it will be taught I can't really defend it. Anyone have any links to the lesson plan or anything similar for this?
Click to expand...

It's been said in this thread already. Creationism is not a scientific theory. It is a religious belief. It should NOT be taught in conjuction with scientific theories or it will confuse the issue.

(When you're fighting a losing battle, as are the creationists, to succesfully muddy the issue is as good as winning)
 
Creationism is anti-science.
It's finding "evidence" (emphasis on the quotes) so they can build it around their dogma's (with twisting the evidence a bit here and there). Real science, sees a phenomenon and then tries to explain that by setting up possible models for it that could explain the phenomenons, and then testing those. You can't practice science when your theory is fixed and unchangable.
 
dys4iK is right.

Personally I have no problem with Creationism being taught in a History class. Hell, it was taught to me, along with Islamic, Jewish and Buddhist ideals in my 8th grade history class.

But creationism has ABSOLUTELY NO place in a science class. Creationism is not a science.
 
PvtRyan said:
Creationism is anti-science.
It's finding "evidence" (emphasis on the quotes) so they can build it around their dogma's (with twisting the evidence a bit here and there). Real science, sees a phenomenon and then tries to explain that by setting up possible models for it that could explain the phenomenons, and then testing those. You can't practice science when your theory is fixed and unchangable.
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Bingo!
That's what makes me sad. This, the Texas textbook censorship and Bush's re-election pretty much confirm a dangerous state of affairs:
There are so many irresponsible christians in america that the democratic process of voting is now consistently choosing the least logical, least democratic choices.

It's not like christians can't be logical about secular affairs, but it seems massive amounts of them have taken to abandonning logic completely.
 
CptStern said:
I thought this was long dead and buried ...since when should schools teach theories based on faith rather than facts? If they're going to teach creationism they should also allow for other creation mythos from other religions ...why not native indian or hindu creation mythologies? why only creationism according to christianity?

Evolution flap flares up in Wisconsin
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There are just as many facts that support creationism as there are evolutionism. Although I think creationism is complete crap, it is still possible. In public school all we learn about is evolutionism, but some of the teachers believed in creationism to they tried to add it to the ciriculum.
 
Foxtrot said:
There are just as many facts that support creationism as there are evolutionism. Although I think creationism is complete crap, it is still possible.
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Facts and creationism on the same sentence? Does not compute!

But seriously, what facts?
 
Mechagodzilla said:
Facts and creationism on the same sentence? Does not compute!

But seriously, what facts?
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I shouldn't have said as many, but I work with someone who believes in creationism and he pointed out A LOT of facts. But he kept thinking of evolution like a step by step mutation, he just couldn't grasp the concept.
 
facts?

"God has no place within these walls, just like facts have no place within organized religion." - Supernintendo Chalmers
 
I'm am unaware of any facts which support creationism.

And inconsistancies in evolution don't count.
 
evolution is not a fact, it's a piece of nonsense taugh in schools. naturally, everybody who graduates from these schools just takes evolution for granted.
unfortunatly, many people who stood up against it are no better, earth is 6000 years old? that's a real easy target for evolutionist to bash, and just confirms the lie that creation is just a christian myth.

here .. if you've never seen evidence forcreation, or against evolution, look no further:
http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/

be enlightened :p pure science. only the arrogant will reject it.
 
hasan said:
evolution is not a fact, it's a piece of nonsense taugh in schools. naturally, everybody who graduates from these schools just takes evolution for granted.
unfortunatly, many people who stood up against it are no better, earth is 6000 years old? that's a real easy target for evolutionist to bash, and just confirms the lie that creation is just a christian myth.

here .. if you've never seen evidence forcreation, or against evolution, look no further:
http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/

be enlightened :p pure science. only the arrogant will reject it.
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Oh yes, I'm certainly going to believe a site that's called "EvolutionDeceit" and purports that one of the REAL ideological roots of terrorism is Darwinism. I can't catch a whiff of bias in that!

Allow me to wallow in my arrogance and reject that piece of trash on the grounds that it's narrow-minded and one-sided.

But instead of linking to that site in an effort to put the work on somebody else, why don't you take some time to explain to us why evolution is just a bunch of nonsense. I think you'd find that a large percentage of the scientific community would disagree with you over that. But wait, they're all wrong, aren't they?
 
Of course they're wrong. They're all conspiring to decieve us, for some... uh... unimaginable goal.
 
Absinthe said:
Oh yes, I'm certainly going to believe a site that's called "EvolutionDeceit" and purports that one of the REAL ideological roots of terrorism is Darwinism. I can't catch a whiff of bias in that!

Allow me to wallow in my arrogance and reject that piece of trash on the grounds that it's narrow-minded and one-sided.
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yes, reject everything against your religion. how open minded.
 
Creationism is complete bullshit.

It's ridiculous to pretend that it even rings true. Oh, that site is completely wrong with the fossils. How about undisturbed proto-ants living in Australia?

Oh, I forgot, the "Flat Earth Society" says Australia doesn't exist!
 
hasan said:
yes, reject everything against your religion. how open minded.
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Evolution is not a religious belief.

He's rejecting everything that has no factual basis.
 
yes, and he knows it has no factual bases because he read the book ..

oops .. he didn't read it, he pre-judged it.
ofcourse, it's a known fact that anything against his religion is inevitably false, so no need to waste his time and read any scintific refutation, becuase his belife is based on arrogance, not facts.
 
hasan said:
yes, and he knows it has no factual bases because he read the book ..

oops .. he didn't read it, he pre-judged it.
ofcourse, it's a known fact that anything against his religion is inevitably false, so no need to waste his time and read any scintific refutation, becuase his belife is based on arrogance, not facts.
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Scientific refutation is all over the place, not just in what Darwin wrote. Just pick up the November 2004 issue of National Geographic, or search for online articles, or take a biology course.

Here, even alot of Christian church officials aren't completely disagreeing with it:
Even church officials and theologians say that neither the Catholic nor the Anglican Church endorses undermining evolutionary ideas. The Bishop of Durham, Michael Turnbull, told New Scientist: "I would hope they would be teaching modern scientific theories along side any sort or biblical approach to creation."
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From here: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992045
That article was written in 2002.
 
people who believe in creationism (while not dumbasses) are severely stupid. im christian, and i simply dont see it. at least, not as in adam and eve banging away until theres 6 billion of us, because we'd be inbred to hell. did god make the first amino acids? did he toss our greatx1000 ancestors into the primordial soup? that is more reasonable to me, but i dont think He made man directly.

that its taught in school is blasphemy. school is a place for fact and reason, not superstition. appeal to everyones belief of logic instead of a relative minority of peoples faith.

edit: wait, its wisconsin. who cares?
 
wow .. even bushists here are evolutionists :LOL:

Mullinator, I'm not christian, I'm muslim.

P.S. I don't know what they are gonna teach kids, I can't take a position on it unless I know.
But I'm fully opposed to preaching evolution in schools.
evolution is not fact, not science.
 
hasan said:
But I'm fully opposed to preaching evolution in schools.
evolution is not fact, not science.
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of course it's science. whether it's "fact" or not is simply an arbitrary designation of term. if you don't understand that evolutionary biology is as scientific as any of the physical sciences, then you're simply ignorant or willfully stupid. but either of those can be fixed, so good luck to you on that.
 
CptStern said:
...If they're going to teach creationism they should also allow for other creation mythos from other religions ...why not native indian or hindu creation mythologies? why only creationism according to christianity?
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[sarcasm]Isn't it obvious why? Christianity is the 'true' religion, not some pagan/heathen religion created by the devil.[/sarcasm]

My view is, if you want to learn creationism, go to church, not school.
 
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