Creative almost cost us Doom's Release date!

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mayro

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I for one will definatly not be upgradeing to a new creative brand product and will no longer attempt to sell them to customers where i work. After reading this HORRIBLE statement that carmack had to put out it is clear atleast in many peoples eyes that ID was getting put over by creative. Isnt it amazeing how after doom'3 goes gold creative some how is able to talk carmack into allowing them to use their EAX on it?

Look at this if you didnt understand me, most of my post dont turn out all to well but it gets the point across. Me being "atleast till this point" a ATI fan have sent a email to nvidia to see if they will be selling sound cards any time soon. LOOK AT THIS CRAP! http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=14459&forum=9

If you dont have time to read it, its basicaly implying that ID got blackmailed in a manner of sorts. Carmack and ID have put alot of time and effort into makeing DOOM's sound engine one of the best. I always liked the features that EAX added to a game but not at the cost of screwing over the person makeing the game. I dont know how but creative owns a patent on some shader that carmack put in doom3. If they would have switched it it would have taken up more resources.

Mainly look at that web fourm post their as really im just attempting to get the point across that we almost had a doom 3 delay becuase of some Dumb A$$ sound card company.
 
That's crazy :eek:
Creative patenting a shadowing technique.. sounds so weird to me
 
Thanks for that info. Something interesting in the gaming world to read about and discuss for a little while.
 
Shuzer said:
That's crazy :eek:
Creative patenting a shadowing technique.. sounds so weird to me
Click to expand...

yeah that is quite weird..
i hope it doesn't affect the games release in any way.. :|
 
I sent a email to HardOCP about it. You know the site thats all buddy buddy with carmack. Its 3am so i dont really think hes reading my email but hopefully when i wake up in the morning i can look on the net and see a big message saying that creative decided that future customers are more important than pissing 75% of the people that could have possilbly bought their card off. I would litteraly plug a USB sound card headset into my computer before i would buy their trash any more. Like i told hardocp... You dont blackmail a game company that has as much support behind is like ID does. That would be like Half-Life 2 not being able to use their facial animation movement system becuase some dweb out in B F E owns a patent on life like talking.

Creative when you read all your hate mail in the morning get a clue.
 
This is going to back fire so bad on Creative it is not even funny. I hope they are forced to retract EAX support for Doom 3.
 
Creative is one shitty company.They always have been really.

Oh well. I will never buy another product from them.
 
Damn and i just ordered my 5.1 audigy ES from them.....could've used this news yesterday.
 
Well, this doesn't really affect me. I like creatives products, so I will continue to buy them :)
 
here in Toronto as far as sound cards go, theres really not much choice.
Creative dominates the market.. and anything else is really just "sub-par"
every time i see some of u American posters posting about other sound cards.. i wonder how good they are and such.. because mostly i haven't heard of em.
 
AHHH! I have Creative speakers!

/me chews on his satellites

But it tastes so good!



And WTF, shadowing doesn't sound like it has anything to do with audio? So they just did that specifically to get at ID? ****!
 
I think Nvidia sound cards would be a great solution the Creative's current monopoly. If Doom 3 was delayed, I and many others would probably never purchase a creative product for a long time.
 
Turtle Beach is a good alternative. Definately not second rate.
 
ShadowFox said:
Turtle Beach is a good alternative. Definately not second rate.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I have turtle beach too, it's great in my opinion. :)
 
I guarantee Carmack is absolutley raging right now. He absolutley hates the idea of people patenting technologies like that, but being screwed over himself by someone who did it. I guarantee hes raging.

**** you Creative.
 
What is this shadowing technique? Is it a graphical thing or some thing with the sounds? I really don't understand the whole situation. So basically Creative tried to make id change some technique in Doom III by claiming they had patented something similar? :D
 
Well, Creative did what seemed right to them. No point in getting so worked up about it :|

/me hugs his creative speakers.
 
Wheres the problem?

They used something Creative had patents on, whether they knew it or not, they still did it. So creative said you can either shell out the cash for it, or you can put our EAX in your engine for FUTURE games, they could have tried to get it into Doom 3.

To me, this seems to be the best thing, because ID didnt have to pay out a load of money for the patent or recode the game and we still got it. Sucks that they had to be forced, but thats the way it goes, after all, ID wrote the code so its their fault.

Hopefully the creative EAX crap they threw in will be a good thing. But business is business.
 
Creative already screwed me over more than once with crappy drivers, now I sure as hell won't be buying anything from them again.
 
With any luck they'll get to keep their excellent sound engine for use in future Doom III based games. It'll be an option: you can use the built-in engine or EAX.
 
amneziac85 said:
Wheres the problem?

They used something Creative had patents on, whether they knew it or not, they still did it. So creative said you can either shell out the cash for it, or you can put our EAX in your engine for FUTURE games, they could have tried to get it into Doom 3.

To me, this seems to be the best thing, because ID didnt have to pay out a load of money for the patent or recode the game and we still got it. Sucks that they had to be forced, but thats the way it goes, after all, ID wrote the code so its their fault.

Hopefully the creative EAX crap they threw in will be a good thing. But business is business.
Click to expand...
Perhaps, but it is exactly this kind of thing that limits development and ends hurting the customers. That is why everyone is pissed, it doesn't matter if you have a patent or not and it doesn't matter how legal it is, if you use it in this manner you are going to be limiting technological development, innovation, competition, and you are going to hurt the customers.
 
To anyone who hasent read the book, i just got it from the liebrary.Getthe masters of doom. Its so awsome, it shows you how Carmack thinks.

Hey carmack good budy put a picture of you useing your 5000$ axe to split a creative video card in half. or....

It is irrational to think that carmack or his team would allow EAX to even get near the doom engine unless they were in a bind. The logical awnser to the question we have been pondering is that if Id didnt go through with creatives idea we would be waiting quite a bit longer for doom 3.

Like i said guys get that book. It shows a side of carmack that you will not find on the internet. That guy will literaly use rationality and logic to blow your mind! The most interesting pice ive seen in that book so far is that carmack went to catholic schools when he was a kid. After mass people would chalange john on his belifes. John haveing the mind of a computer himself used logic that caused the people that he talked to, to run away crying. I guess this shows why he doesnt mind releaseing a game full of demons, he probably doesnt belive in them :) "Except for the kind that holds patents on software"
 
Welcome to the world of corporations. Creative Labs is just like any other company in the world.

Imrahil
 
Shuzer said:
That's crazy :eek:
Creative patenting a shadowing technique.. sounds so weird to me
Click to expand...

I think its lame.
 
Hey guys i got a heads up for you. Either late tonight or earlyer tomarrow morning i will be posting my personal oppinion of creative sound cards. They will be in picture format and in no way are linked to supported by or endorsed or any other legal thing they might try to nail me for.... Consider the pictures that will follow to be expressing my freedom of speech. I dont know what size they will end up being but if they go over the size limit ill try to host them some where.

I guarante you will laugh your a$$ off at these pictures. "Note: these pictures are not evidance that i have to much free time so please no comments on that :)"

Also I only have the one soundblaster card to spare so its a one time thing with the set of pictures :)
 
Imrahil said:
Welcome to the world of corporations. Creative Labs is just like any other company in the world.

Imrahil
Click to expand...


That's precisely the problem. These sorts of tactics (yes, I know nothing illegal was done here) are exactly what stifle creativity and innovation in every field. Furthermore, while Creative technically did nothing illegal, they apparently went ahead and disclosed this shadowing algorithm (a shadowing algorithm they themselves had taken from another) with id and the software community in general on their developer forum, waited a few months, and then filed a patent on it. That smells like a dirty trap to catch a developer and blackmail them into supporting EAX (which is exactly what happened here).
 
Oh, now I get it. The shadowing technique has something to do with the sounds in Doom III. At first I though it ment the incredible realtime lighting effects, but then I was like wtf does EAX have to do with graphics
 
Seppo said:
Oh, now I get it. The shadowing technique has something to do with the sounds in Doom III. At first I though it ment the incredible realtime lighting effects, but then I was like wtf does EAX have to do with graphics
Click to expand...

Wrong.

You know about the shadowing technique used in DOOM 3? That's called the depth-fail method, or more commonly the Carmack's Reverse.

Practically, some peep (Dietrich, I think) affiliated to nVidia posted a method of doing stencil shadows the 'reverse' way, on the Creative Labs forums in 1999. Carmack was working on a similar shadowing technique independently at that time, and he succeeded in 2000, a few months after the post was made. In essence, Carmack came up with a more complete solution than Dietrich did, and made the additional stride to implement it in a fully interactive environment.

However, in the few months gap in between Dietrich's post, and Carmack's announcement of his own breakthrough, Creative filed a patent for Dietrich's "semi-thesis" (whether Creative informed Dietrich about the patent, I do not know). So basically, Creative took someone else's idea and patented it for themselves, screwing id and Carmack in the process.

F*cked up, isn't it?
 
don't you love companies and patents?

paintball has one atm were a company called smart parts has patented the use of electricty to trigger a cycle for a paintball gun to fire. As most top end guns are electro they demand royalites from all other guns. Stupid thing is, they weren't even first. What they did was extend and old patent for a specific gun to a general one.

Kinda like ford patenting the stearing wheel :)
 
Id told Creative that they implemented a shadowing technique that they later found out was patented by Creative. Creative made them a deal so that Id could use the shadowing technique, thus increasing the performance of the game, as long as Eax was put into Doom3.

Gamers get the better sound of Eax, if they have a card that supports it, and better performance with the shadows.

Creative get their Eax engine installed on one of the best games ever made.

Id get to use the fastest Shadowing technique without paying any money to anyone.


Where the heck is everyones problem, everyone wins don't they?
 
Razor said:
Id told Creative that they implemented a shadowing technique that they later found out was patented by Creative. Creative made them a deal so that Id could use the shadowing technique, thus increasing the performance of the game, as long as Eax was put into Doom3.

Gamers get the better sound of Eax, if they have a card that supports it, and better performance with the shadows.

Creative get their Eax engine installed on one of the best games ever made.

Id get to use the fastest Shadowing technique without paying any money to anyone.


Where the heck is everyones problem, everyone wins don't they?
Click to expand...

The whole point is that Creative patented an idea on reverse shadows. The whole idea of patenting technologly is looked upon as "a jackass move." This is because alot of technologies use the same basic principles and derivitives off of those principles. Thus, the people that lose is all of us because it hinders technological decelopment because there is a sea of legal matters that would need to be dealt with before anything could be created. It would be like Havok company (the physics engine) asking for royalties on Doom 3's physics engine because Havok came up with the idea of physics in a game first. That is why this whole situation is so aggrivating.

On a side note, Carmack programmed the sound in Doom 3 to be more relient on the CPU instead of the sound card because he though it would yield better sound over a broader span of computers and it would sound better than if EAX was enabled for Creatives cards
 
crabcakes66 said:
Creative is one shitty company.They always have been really.

Oh well. I will never buy another product from them.
Click to expand...
yp.. ad3d pwned untill creative bought them and turned into a piece of shit
 
EVIL said:
yp.. ad3d pwned untill creative bought them and turned into a piece of shit
Click to expand...
I mean A3d .. damn 20 minute edit limit
 
crabcakes66 said:
Creative is one shitty company.They always have been really.

Oh well. I will never buy another product from them.
Click to expand...

Aye - the smell of D3 fanboyism has reached unbelievable levels- mind if I join you.

screw you creative. :p
 
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