Critisism Of Capitalism

[Mr Stabby]

so socialism ie. the USSR, allows better personnel welfare, than Capitalism ie. UK.

:rolling:

 

[ComradeBadger]

"Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy"

I'm sorry what.. no control?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=socialism

Oh, and why the hell should the government decide what's best for people.

I'm left by political nature, but I disagree with you vehemently

 

[Solaris]

"Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy"

I'm sorry what.. no control?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=socialism

Oh, and why the hell should the government decide what's best for people.

I'm left by political nature, but I disagree with you vehemently

Okay when I said no control, I was comabtting a misbelief that I usually encounter: "Socilaism/communism means making everyone the same and making them live in the same houses and wear the same clothes ect.

Comrade the government would decide, becuase it completly elected by the people, democracy would be put everywhere possible it would be a completly new system, the workers would vote on the foreman who votes on his higher up ect. In short, the government would be more democratic than currently, and so would choose for the people, becuase it is the people.

so socialism ie. the USSR

The USSR wasn't socialist nor communist, it was state capitalist.
Just becuase it claimed to be doesnt make it so. Zimbabwe claims to be a democracy but we all know it isn't.

 

[Sulkdodds]

Now, I'm more left than right, both economically and authority/liberally (...yeah) and I believe there are a hell of a lot of problems with capitalism, and certainly with the way it is implemented in our society. But stop looking at the world in primary colours. Your view of capitalism is naively simplistic at best and ridiculous at worst.

Yes there are alot of factory workers, and there are few dentists, you know why? Becuase only a minority of people can be a dentist, not everyone is that clever. Is that fair? To force and eploit workers becuase of there intelligence, becuase that is whats happening to the workers in factory, there being robbed of there surplus value, and this is going to people who are intelligent enough to exploit them.

I hope you realise that intelligence, as you put it, is completely secondary in the modern world to dedication, drive and the willpower to put 120% into things -itself something that is aqquired through effort and not given at birth. I have met many truly stupid doctors and dentists. All they have to do is learn, which any human can do, and persevere, which any human can do (I'm not being against doctors and dentists here; I'm sure it's a very demanding job but you don't need to be born with hawking-like intellect to achieve it).

More people could become dentists if they wanted. But they don't want to, or they don't try to. Like Ren said, supply and demand. Dentists and lawyers earn lots because very few people take those career choices.

You need to rethink your black-and-white view of capitalism. Management is not all enslaving the poor and living fat off your ill-gotten gains. Niether does it require intelligence - again, it's drive and experience that matter. Your view of the 'working class', "working on mininum wage, toiling day in day out" is extremely simplistic and innacurate. The defining characterstic of low-paid jobs in our society is boredom and not hardship. Hell, in most cases, simply staying at the same job for 30 years will see you elevated and elevated until you're pretty high up the chain. The working class of our society are not getting their hands dirty in crampt, horrid cotton mills, losing arms to the clanking steam engines and whipped every day by a man in a top hat. In most cases, management is harder than low-paid work because there is more and not less to do. Like I said, boredom's the killer. Besides, without a manager, they'd not do anything in any useful fashion.

Your talk of 'people making millions of the backs of people they force to work 12 hours a day, some of them children for barely enough to buy a loaf of bread' is A. a generalisation and B. not a problem of capitalism per se. Rather, the things you describe are a problem of shit countries with shit labour laws - what you're talking about doesn't happen in this country, not legally. It happens because other countries in this world are not properly looking after their citizens and nobody is stopping human rights abuses or ensuring the corporations don't step out of line. It is not a problem of economic systems or of capitalism vs communism.

They will live by "To each according to need, from each according to ability". This means people will contribute to the best of the ability. People with low mental ability will not be expected to have to go to college to make a decent ability, but people who are capable would be expected to do so. So if they are capable, they will be pushed to do so. So there will be no-one not going to college becuase they need to work to support there single mum, the state will support thoose who need it, and push people to contribue to the state the best they can, but without being overworked for profit.

How is that fair? Clever people have to do more, but do not recieve any extra benefits? Or they do recieve extra benefits, and it's not fair?

The people at the top are not better people, they just happen to be more clever.

DOES NOT COMPUTE
REDO FROM START

 

[Mr Stabby]

The USSR wasn't socialist nor communist, it was state capitalist.
Just becuase it claimed to be doesnt make it so. Zimbabwe claims to be a democracy but we all know it isn't.

the USSR was applied socialism, even under Lenin, unless people were forced through terror to accept socialism it would never have been used

 

[Raz]

I'm sorry, but seeing people make millions of the backs of people they force to work 12 hours a day, some of them children for barely enough to buy a loaf of bread.! Yes I am hateful towards them, they are complete b****ds, can you justify for a secound what there doing? No, no you can't there abusing these children in there f****g sweatshops for some more profit so they can build as secound mansion.

The bosses do not contribute more, not for one secound.
The people at the top are not better people, they just happen to be more clever. They deserve more money???? Why? Are they working on mininum wage, toiling day in day out, actually making the things? Saying that the boss makes more than the works is just complete crap, you've shown youreself up there. You say I don't know anything about economics and then say bosses contribute more than the workers, thats just rediculous, unless of course we can build houses buy bullying and underpaying the bricks?

There motivated by money becuase they grew up in poverty, I can see it out my window, and theres even more of it in the USA.

You're living in a fantasy world, Solaris. As I previously suggested, get a job in a factory and see how things really work. People making millions over the backs of others? Don't be ridiculous. The only places in the world where such things actually happen are non-western countries with poor labour laws and as such the problem is not capitalism, it's the government of those specific countries. I certainly hope you don't actually think that your hyperbolic statement is at all applicable to any western business. There is no such thing as the rich industrialist sitting in his office all day smoking cigars and counting money while watching his lackeys whip the poor labouring hordes into submission. This is nothing more than a stupid stereotype that holds absolutely no water.

And yes, bosses do contribute more. Again, what they do is more difficult work. The fact is that while the assembly line worker can sit there all day carrying out his task without a care in the world the boss has his fate, the company's fate and the fate of all it's employees in his hands. For being the ones working the longest hours and making the hard decisions and having all the responsibilities that an assembly line worker doesn't have he deserves more rewards. The cog in the machine is inferior to the man operating the machine.

 

[Solaris]

More people could become dentists if they wanted. But they don't want to, or they don't try to. Like Ren said, supply and demand. Dentists and lawyers earn lots because very few people take those career choices.

No they couldnt. Becuase who would work the machines?

How is that fair? Clever people have to do more, but do not recieve any extra benefits? Or they do recieve extra benefits, and it's not fair?

No they dont at all have to do more.

In my maths class theres both intermediate and higher.
I'm getting an A* easilly Im just really good at maths, there are people on intermediate(which I find really easy) who are working about 10x harder than me and still getting a c, becuase they find it challenging.

I do 'cleverer' work, but they still work harder.

 

[Mr Stabby]

so jobs should be given out based on how much they want to do it, not how qualified they are...

 

[Teh Pwned]

I think this all goes to show that in Mankinds infinate escapade to find the perfect life, Capitalism, though it isn't perfect, is just a stepping stone on the way to perfection, and one stepping stone above socialism.

 

[Solaris]

I think this all goes to show that in Mankinds infinate escapade to find the perfect life, Capitalism, though it isn't perfect, is just a stepping stone on the way to perfection, and one stepping stone above socialism.

Back that up or shut up.

so jobs should be given out based on how much they want to do it, not how qualified they are...

Where did I say qualifacations didn't matter?
I'm saying that society takes according to ability. So if short recoil worked in a factory he would work 4 machines at once.

 

[short recoil]

A perfect system can only be perfect for an individual.

For example my perfect system would be survival of the fittest/fascist system.
Whereas someone who works well with money would be capatilist etc.

Don't try and come up with a perfect system, there isn't one all you can do is come up with something that satisfies as many people as possible. (we are about there)

 

[DrDevin]

A perfect system can only be perfect for an individual.

For example my perfect system would be survival of the fittest/fascist system.
Whereas someone who works well with money would be capatilist etc.

Don't try and come up with a perfect system, there isn't one all you can do is come up with something that satisfies as many people as possible. (we are about there)

Agreed.

I completely understand your ideas solaris, however I am not content with having only so much. I enjoy having quality possesions which I acquire through hard work and study. I don't show off but I am not content with an average car if I know their is something much better.

Sure I know people who are happy to be middle/lower class all their lives but some people want more and the if you force everyone to be equal then there will be violence/rioting.

If you put a genious on the same level as a factory worker then there is destined to be trouble. Sure the world tells you everyone should be equal but they are not (everyone should have equal rights though).

Where is the drive for sucess if you gain nothing by overachieving?

Also many tradesmen (carpenters, welders, mechanics) make really good money here: $60-$80 thousand dollars a year. I dont consider those jobs requiring a lot of mental capacity (although they are hard). Everyone is good at something!

My usual argument is that anyone can make money/be sucessful in a democracy like ours. Anyone can get money for an education through grants, start their own company, be promoted or even become a national leader. All it takes is work. If you are lazy you deserve what you get.

 

[little.rebel]

Facissm in its extreme is just another form of socialism. Which also has failed, adn proved that it was no good. It was too strict and too over enphasised in areas of life.

 

[Teh Pwned]

Back that up or shut up

In theory socialism is the morally superior social system despite its dismal record of failure in the real world. Capitalism, by contrast, is a morally bankrupt system despite the extraordinary prosperity it has created. In other words, capitalism at best, can only be defended on pragmatic grounds. We tolerate it because it works.

Ha, just google, yahoo, or any search engine will do, just look up Socialism vs. Capitalism, alot better arguments than ours.

 

[SIGbastard]

Solaris it doesn't take being clever or smart to achieve much. All it takes is dedication. I didn't even have a 3.0 in High School because I didn't take it serious. Hell I was stoned half the time I was at school. I did well enough on the ACT to get into the university where I lived (I never took the SAT's or whatever it's called). If I had applied a year later I would not have gotten in because the standards were raised. My grammar is horrible alot of the time as well as many other things.

While an undergrad I studied countless hours to get a competitive GPA. I have friends that are much smarter than me and I think could have done anything they want. They lacked motivation though and have basically done nothing with themselves.

The idea that people are unable to do this or that is utter bullshit. It's about committment and hard work. Unless you have some learning disability there is no excuse.

My parents started out with nothing. They are both from Arkansas. They lived in a trailer park and had one car that was 4 different colors with rust as one of the colors (they had that car for 12 years). My dad joined the Air Force and through their programs he has a BS in Electrical Engineering, a BS in something else, and a Master's in Computer Sciences. He is now a software engineer for Boeing. I know he used to write defense programs for B1 bombers but I have no idea now.

My point is this whole idea of yours that there are "clever" people and then everyone else is complete bull shit. People get where they are from hard work and dedication. Some people like me get an easier start because my parents made life easier for me than they had it. That is every parents goal and is completely achievable by anyone at least in the US. I don't know enough about other countries to include them but I am assuming that it is like that in alot of places.

 

[clarky003]

Lets face it socialisim , ie as in star trek socialisim, would be great if we had abundance of energy.. equaling abundance of food and anything that required energy to manufacture. It would all be as cheap as muck and we wouldnt have to worry about allocating cost's so much... so technology can defiantely help

Problem today is, we havnt been able to developed the right technologies or moral values (state of mind) to accomplish that.

Secondly socialisim under that context needs a unifying motive something that everyone can morally associate with no matter their religion or belief.. ie every decent person probably believes we should better ourselves for the whole, concentrate on the bigger picture, etc, ie a manhatten project for exploring our galaxy, ideas for converting all military's into one NASA like organisation.

That isnt emphasised in schools enough.. we are essentially brought up in constant aggressive competition (whos the bigger monkey shit) rather than taught howto appreciate each other and howto work together and be friendly at competing when we have to, we presently are all the things we cant be to move into a peaceful socialist society, majority wise we are irrationally emotional, possessive, egotisitcal, self perpetuated by personal aquisition of material wealth, alot of good people even lack motivation because we get depressed at the site of how much shittyness there is, and hardly being able to do a thing about it.

The one dreaded stink nugget with capitalist society is the attitude often needed to get to the top can easily corrupt, requiring the key things that make us ignorant, neglegent and overally bad, egotisim selfishness.. etc, so often enough it really is the shit's that end up controlling the planet, there are a majority of good people that could make something more of us if you gave them the chance who are left without a say, my pardon, a yes or no vote.

I dont really have anything honorable to say about capitalisim , it brings out the worst in us as a race, you cant have global standard of life equality with capitalisim it relies on the few, not the many, having heresay and resources. A form of socialism would make that possible in time, when we perhaps have learnt to not be such shits.

All I want to know is what are we all still doing roaming around squabling on this ball of rock under the lead of some egotisitical idiot's when we can make it possible to unify despite our fear's of a very small number of 'terrorist's opposed to western ideal's' or our irrational fears of other culture's, combining resources we can then try harder to allow us to have other places to go and other things to see, also so this place doesnt feel so cramped!.

 

[kirovman]

I think that nationalism brings out worse things than capitalism.

In European countries, I would say we have a healthy balance of capitalism/socialism.

We are not so polarised to an extreme, we have capitalist businesses here, free market, etc, but also we have a socialist style system to look after the less well off. No job? No problem, we'll give you some money and a place to live.
Need healthcare because you're sick, but you can't afford medical treatment? No problem, medical treatment is free for all.

I think we have one of the best ideas: allow people to work hard, progress up the career ladder and earn a better wage, while at the same time ensuring noone falls into poverty or unneccessary sickness.

Competativeness is motivational in itself, humans are competative by nature, it's how we have survived up until now. However, we are also cooperative, which is also a good survival skill in the right context.

If you remove competition from business, the business will become complacent, due to the fact that it dominates the market, will cut back on new products and research and development, everything will stagnate.

However I agree that businesses should be regulated sufficiently by the government, to avoid mal-practices and mistreatment of workers.

 

[ComradeBadger]

Agreed with Kirovman

 

[BirdMan]

Lets face it socialisim , ie as in star trek socialisim, would be great if we had abundance of energy.. equaling abundance of food and anything that required energy to manufacture. It would all be as cheap as muck and we wouldnt have to worry about allocating cost's so much... so technology can defiantely help

Problem today is, we havnt been able to developed the right technologies or moral values (state of mind) to accomplish that.

Secondly socialisim under that context needs a unifying motive something that everyone can morally associate with no matter their religion or belief.. ie every decent person probably believes we should better ourselves for the whole, concentrate on the bigger picture, etc, ie a manhatten project for exploring our galaxy, ideas for converting all military's into one NASA like organisation.

That isnt emphasised in schools enough.. we are essentially brought up in constant aggressive competition (whos the bigger monkey shit) rather than taught howto appreciate each other and howto work together and be friendly at competing when we have to, we presently are all the things we cant be to move into a peaceful socialist society, majority wise we are irrationally emotional, possessive, egotisitcal, self perpetuated by personal aquisition of material wealth, alot of good people even lack motivation because we get depressed at the site of how much shittyness there is, and hardly being able to do a thing about it.

The one dreaded stink nugget with capitalist society is the attitude often needed to get to the top can easily corrupt, requiring the key things that make us ignorant, neglegent and overally bad, egotisim selfishness.. etc, so often enough it really is the shit's that end up controlling the planet, there are a majority of good people that could make something more of us if you gave them the chance who are left without a say, my pardon, a yes or no vote.

I dont really have anything honorable to say about capitalisim , it brings out the worst in us as a race, you cant have global standard of life equality with capitalisim it relies on the few, not the many, having heresay and resources. A form of socialism would make that possible in time, when we perhaps have learnt to not be such shits.

All I want to know is what are we all still doing roaming around squabling on this ball of rock under the lead of some egotisitical idiot's when we can make it possible to unify despite our fear's of a very small number of 'terrorist's opposed to western ideal's' or our irrational fears of other culture's, combining resources we can then try harder to allow us to have other places to go and other things to see, also so this place doesnt feel so cramped!.

I want you for president of the world! Could not have said better, great post