Death is art...

This is the reason why I think vegetarians are often so damn judgmental.

I eat meat, therefore I *MUST* support cruelty and suffering. Oh sweet suffering, you taste delicious.

**** off.

I eat it because it tastes good, and I prefer to have it brought to me in a process that the animal doesn't suffer(except for it's life ending). I'd want it to have a free ranging environment, good food that it'd naturally eat.

Same reason I enjoy the taste of vegetables and fruits. They're delicious, but I don't want pesticides used and mishandling of them before they get to my table.

I enjoy meat because it tastes good. I don't support animal suffering. Anyone claiming so is a judgmental asshole, and also wrong.
 
Gray Fox said:
Making that distinction is like saying it's ok to kill for money, because then you're just doing it for the money not because you like it.
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Yes. Farmers do it all the time. Period. Now shut up :)
 
Gray Fox said:
an in most cases an animal that is more intelligent then your cat or dog. You are morally responsible for the suffering and killing of the animals you eat.
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Okay, so you're trying to convince me that the Thanksgiving turkey I'm already salivating over, is smarter than a Golder Retriever? Smarter than Lassie? Smarter than Rin Tin Tin?

Have you gone MAD?

While my examples are made in jest, my point is not. All animals have some level of intelligence, emotional capacity, and the ability to think and feel. I believe that to be true. However, I don't believe that Tom Turkey is saying "Oh crap, there goes my head" as it gets the axe. While meat processing plants are not exactly cozy, they are mandated by federal agencies (at least in the US) to ensure as little suffering as possible. They don't always succeed (so, please, don't try and push the PETA ads at me.. I know how it works).. but.. they do try.

I am morally responsible for the death of every chicken I've ever eaten. Okay, good. That means I'm also morally responsible for every job that's been created, every piece of technology that's been developed, and well, hell.. I guess.. I'm responsible for Jim Perdue's funny-ass commercials.

Bow to me, because without me, we'd all be eating corn-on-the-cob and lettuce.
 
Raziaar said:
This is the reason why I think vegetarians are often so damn judgmental.

I eat meat, therefore I *MUST* support cruelty and suffering. Oh sweet suffering, you taste delicious.

**** off.
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sigh ..that isnt even remotely true ...there are a lot of vegetarians who keep to themselves ..in fact I bet you'd be surprised how many people are vegetarian ..either for moral or dietary concerns

dont paint everyone with the same brush

and yes if you eat meat/eggs/cheese/milk that comes from a corporate farm you are supporting cruelty albeit indirectly


firenbrimstone said:
so you're trying to convince me that the Thanksgiving turkey I'm already salivating over, is smarter than a Golder Retriever? Smarter than Lassie? Smarter than Rin Tin Tin?
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he means pigs,and yes in some cases they are smarter than dogs


and you people need to STFU about Peta they are NOT the only anti-cruelty organisation out there, dont turn thisinto another peta debate ffs
 
Raziaar said:
This is the reason why I think vegetarians are often so damn judgmental.

I eat meat, therefore I *MUST* support cruelty and suffering. Oh sweet suffering, you taste delicious.

**** off.

I eat it because it tastes good, and I prefer to have it brought to me in a process that the animal doesn't suffer(except for it's life ending). I'd want it to have a free ranging environment, good food that it'd naturally eat.

Same reason I enjoy the taste of vegetables and fruits. They're delicious, but I don't want pesticides used and mishandling of them before they get to my table.

I enjoy meat because it tastes good. I don't support animal suffering. Anyone claiming so is a judgmental asshole, and also wrong.
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Well you may not like the fact that animals are suffering, I understand that. But you also understand that for an animal to get to your plate it has to go trough suffering, and eventual death. So unless you do not have reasonable alternatives, every time you buy and eat meat you consciously support that. Furthermore, death is also suffering, why should animal as intelligent and capable as a pig or a cow have to die just so you can get 5 minutes of pleasure. Is that really a morally justifiably trade off even of the animal had a good life.
 
CptStern said:
sigh ..that isnt even remotely true ...there are a lot of vegetarians who keep to themselves ..in fact I bet you'd be surprised how many people are vegetarian ..either for moral or dietary concerns

dont paint everyone with the same brush

and yes if you eat meat/eggs/cheese/milk that comes from a corporate farm you are supporting cruelty albeit indirectly
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I paint them when they paint me. I already said in the past I don't think all of them are, but when they keep coming out of the woodwork to criticize me, I'm going to label them as judgmental.
 
firenbrimstone said:
Okay, so you're trying to convince me that the Thanksgiving turkey I'm already salivating over, is smarter than a Golder Retriever? Smarter than Lassie? Smarter than Rin Tin Tin?

Have you gone MAD?

While my examples are made in jest, my point is not. All animals have some level of intelligence, emotional capacity, and the ability to think and feel. I believe that to be true. However, I don't believe that Tom Turkey is saying "Oh crap, there goes my head" as it gets the axe. While meat processing plants are not exactly cozy, they are mandated by federal agencies (at least in the US) to ensure as little suffering as possible. They don't always succeed (so, please, don't try and push the PETA ads at me.. I know how it works).. but.. they do try.

I am morally responsible for the death of every chicken I've ever eaten. Okay, good. That means I'm also morally responsible for every job that's been created, every piece of technology that's been developed, and well, hell.. I guess.. I'm responsible for Jim Perdue's funny-ass commercials.

Bow to me, because without me, we'd all be eating corn-on-the-cob and lettuce.
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I wasn't saying the turkey was smarter then lassie, but there are many animals like pig's and cows that are smarter then cats and dog's. As far as your second argument about being responsible I really don't get what your trying to say? With the animals you eat, you have a direct connection because by buying their meat you have directly supported and rewarded the industry that killed them, you do not have that with every development out there.

There is also more truth in PETA commercials then people give them credit for, in many cases the enforcement of regulations is weak and it's cheaper to skip on making their lives easier.
 
Raziaar said:
I paint them when they paint me. I already said in the past I don't think all of them are, but when they keep coming out of the woodwork to criticize me, I'm going to label them as judgmental.
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ok I get it, if an extremist vegetarian stereotypes you into a certain catagory you in turn paint every vegetarian into a stereotype? isnt that being hypocritical?
 
*resigns from topic* there's no way you're going to get me to stop eating meat. I know me to believe myself right. And you're evidently not going to stop. So I'll leave you guys to delve further and further off topic.
 
CptStern said:
ok I get it, if an extremist vegetarian stereotypes you into a certain catagory you in turn paint every vegetarian into a stereotype? isnt that being hypocritical?
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No, even though I didn't explicitly clarify myself, you know what I mean. When vegetarians out there stereotype me, I'm going to declare that there are vegetarians out there who are judgmental. I'm not judging them, but I'm constantly being judged by them so I'm not going to pretend there aren't vegetarians out there who's goal in life seems to be to criticize and judge meat eaters.
 
Raziaar said:
No, even though I didn't explicitly clarify myself, you know what I mean. When vegetarians out there stereotype me, I'm going to declare that there are vegetarians out there who are judgmental. I'm not judging them, but I'm constantly being judged by them so I'm not going to pretend there aren't vegetarians out there who's goal in life seems to be to criticize and judge meat eaters.
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ya well that can be true for any lifestyle


gray fox, relax, he's being sarcastic ..specifically the "best art ever"
 
Gray Fox said:
As far as your second argument about being responsible I really don't get what your trying to say? With the animals you eat, you have a direct connection because by buying their meat you have directly supported and rewarded the industry that killed them, you do not have that with every development out there.
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I'd like to introduce you to a little term known as "sarcasm". It's wonderful and useful, but apparently missed.

Just as an FYI, I know that the industry isn't perfect. I'd never claim that it was. I do think it's slightly more evolved than hunting a wooly mammoth with a pointy stick. Prodding it and chasing it for days, following the blood trail, as it slowly weakens.

Anyways, you're entitled to your opinion and you rock for sticking with it, but.. we're always going to disagree fundamentally on this.

I'm off to lunch, I think I'll get a double hamburger with extra cheese. I'll get a large order of fries, but.. I hope the potatoes don't scream when they're dropped into the hot oil.
 
Raziaar said:
No, even though I didn't explicitly clarify myself, you know what I mean. When vegetarians out there stereotype me, I'm going to declare that there are vegetarians out there who are judgmental. I'm not judging them, but I'm constantly being judged by them so I'm not going to pretend there aren't vegetarians out there who's goal in life seems to be to criticize and judge meat eaters.
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Pedo's, murderurs, communist, fatty's all don't like to be judged.
Judging is something we all do. Just getting mad about it, and treating it like a barrier against discourse is wrong.
 
Gray Fox said:
Pedo's, murderurs, communist, fatty's all don't like to be judged.
Judging is something we all do. Just getting mad about it, and treating it like a barrier against discourse is wrong.
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*Peado's and *Murderers do not come under the same categories as Communists and "Fattys". If you're going to be argumentative, try at least not to offend a group of people who might not even be obese by choice.
 
Gray Fox said:
Pedo's, murderurs, communist, fatty's all don't like to be judged.
Judging is something we all do. Just getting mad about it, and treating it like a barrier against discourse is wrong.
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Discourse? There's nothing that needs to be communicated. What I'm doing isn't wrong, except in your eyes. I'm nourishing myself. I barely even eat meat these days, but when I do, I enjoy it... And I'm not going to let anybody make me feel bad about it.

I'm done with this conversation... not because I'm chickening out(omg lol chickening out, get it?), but because there's nothing else that needs to be said.
 
You saying commi's aren't as bad as murderers and pedo's?

Raziaar said:
Discourse? There's nothing that needs to be communicated. What I'm doing isn't wrong, except in your eyes. I'm nourishing myself. I barely even eat meat these days, but when I do, I enjoy it... And I'm not going to let anybody make me feel bad about it.
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But again, that isn't a justification. Someone could use that reasoning for any kind of behavior.
 
Druckles said:
*Peado's and *Murderers do not come under the same categories as Communists and "Fattys". If you're going to be argumentative, try at least not to offend a group of people who might not even be obese by choice.
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Very astute point! You can't be all high and mighty about animals, whilst calling a segment of the population "fattys". Maybe they're just bloated from too much fiber???
 
Gray Fox said:
You saying commi's aren't as bad as murderers and pedo's?
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Yes. Communism is a belief. It's as bad as Christianity and Islam and Judaism if you will. But this is getting into a rather heated debate which should belong in the Politics section, I believe
 
Gray Fox said:
You saying commi's aren't as bad as murderers and pedo's?
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Yup. I'll say that. Communists, while I disagree with their logic and beliefs, are definitely not in the same category as pedophiles and murderers.
 
and we come full circle ..the artist is right. people's agendas are more important than the dog's life ..look at you all using this incident to spout your own personal belief system while ultimately ignoring the main issue
 
CptStern said:
and we come full circle ..the artist is right. people's agendas are more important than the dog's life ..look at you all using this incident to spout your own personal belief system while ultimately ignoring the main issue
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I've already discussed my views on the topic at hand before all this meat eater crap started happening. I feel the dog was in a terrible situation, and should have been helped. I also feel stray dogs on the street should be helped.

What's wrong with that? Nothing.
 
Is it so hard to spot humor when you see it, or was the lure of flaming me just to great?
 
CptStern said:
and we come full circle ..the artist is right. people's agendas are more important than the dog's life ..look at you all using this incident to spout your own personal belief system while ultimately ignoring the main issue
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I'll take that feedback.

Animals are better than people, therefore they should not be harmed. Having said that, they DO get harmed. If I could be everywhere at once, I'd be glad to save them all, but I can't. So, I do what I can locally, by supporting my local shelters, volunteering my time, and spaying/neutering my pets.

Oh, and that jackass needs to be strapped to a wall with no food or drink until he dies. He's a lazy human, so it shouldn't take long.
 
I thought we established in a previous thread that if you believe it is ethically ok to eat animals, you must also believe it is ethically ok for Ikerous to rape a cow.

It's entirely true that you're morally responsible for the animals killed that you eat; the question is how great a responsibility that is: as great as human/human murder, or as little as stealing a pencil sharpener?

As for the art: it's completely horrible, but what seems more horrible is that nobody actually rescued the dog, seeing it only as an exhibit (which was the artist's point, it seems).
 
It's a pretty horrible thing. But I wouldn't do shit about it.

Sure it would be nice to save the dog and feel good about ones self and then walk home perhaps with a slightly smug smile on ones face. Perhaps whilst wearing some nice white trainers made by a 9year old who lives in complete poverty. Walk past the oxfam charity shop whilst millions are starving to death and spend 20quid on a new tshirt that you don't particularly want or need but as a treat for yourself for saving that dog.

I'm a socialist, the poverty in the world sickens me. Seeing the way we allow cooperations to pay impoverished people so slow makes me angry. People who care more for a ****ing dog whilst being fully complicit in society, exerting very little pressure on it to change. You buy carbon neural car insurance and you'll feel contented. You shouldn't.


Of course, every penny I spend on anything other than the bare essentials to survive is tainted with the hunger of millions of children. It disturbs me somewhat that I'm OK with that. We're all complicit in the worlds poverty. Just as we are complicit in that exhibition. Ones a lot easier to fix; but I'd quite happily build 100 of it to solve the other.
 
Solaris said:
It's a pretty horrible thing. But I wouldn't do shit about it.

Sure it would be nice to save the dog and feel good about ones self and then walk home perhaps with a slightly smug smile on ones face. Perhaps whilst wearing some nice white trainers made by a 9year old who lives in complete poverty. Walk past the oxfam charity shop whilst millions are starving to death and spend 20quid on a new tshirt that you don't particularly want or need but as a treat for yourself for saving that dog.

I'm a socialist, the poverty in the world sickens me. Seeing the way we allow cooperations to pay impoverished people so slow makes me angry. People who care more for a ****ing dog whilst being fully complicit in society, exerting very little pressure on it to change. You buy carbon neural car insurance and you'll feel contented. You shouldn't.

Of course, every penny I spend on anything other than the bare essentials to survive is tainted with the hunger of millions of children. It disturbs me somewhat that I'm OK with that. We're all complicit in the worlds poverty. Just as we are complicit in that exhibition. Ones a lot easier to fix; but I'd quite happily build 100 of it to solve the other.
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Wow... I'd help the dog. Just because terrible things happen in the world, it doesn't mean I would stand idly by if I had the power to do something about it as an individual.
 
As far as I know it isn't, and there is a very handy quote of the definition of believe from wiki that puts it better then i ever could.
Belief is the psychological state in which an individual is convinced of the truth or validity of a proposition or premise (argument) without necessarily being able to adequately prove their main contention to other people who may or may not agree.
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Yeah, but you're pretty much hardcoded with "good morals" and "don't kill people" type beliefs.

Unless you're a sociopath, or something.
 
Well, the provoking debate part seems to have worked.
 
Never argue with vegetarians. They are always right, and those of us who actually "conform" to the omnivorous status we were all born with, are always wrong.
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Sadly, thats usually the truth.
 
Gray Fox said:
But you do make the conscious decision that your pleasure is more important then the life of an animal, an in most cases an animal that is more intelligent then your cat or dog. Making that distinction is like saying it's ok to kill for money, because then you're just doing it for the money not because you like it. Mind you I'm not comparing the killing of a human to an animal, just the logic behind your reasoning.
You are morally responsible for the suffering and killing of the animals you eat.

But to come back to the topic, the artist killed the dog to make a political statement, not because he enjoyed it. You have supported the killing of many animals.



Is there any point to this post. Apart from not really addressing my reasoning it's just restarted. You do know that every time we kill each other, fight wars, steal, we just comform to the natural status we are born with.
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.....
 
K e r b e r o s said:
Sadly, thats usually the truth.
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duh because you are wrong? there isnt a single person here who would be able to defend factory farms and the needless cruelty visited on animals just so you can order a meal and have it front of you within 5 minutes
 
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