Democratic Convention

[PunisherUSA]

France has a democratic convention??

Or are people just straying off topic....

Anyway, even as a conservative, I believe democrats, as everyone else, have a right to congregate for a political convention. As long as violence and hateful chants are left out, a rally is fine.

{Speaks to self} No Mr. Peabody, we couldn't do THAT. There might be witnesses! [/horrible psychotic joke]

 

[CptStern]

The Offspring song "Cool to Hate" comes to mind.

With that said, there are some fairly large political differences that seperate France from the United States. A lot of it stems from political idealogies. The rest of the hatred toward France stems from the need to have someone to blame. It also doesn't hurt that France never had a good reputation for treating US citizens on vacation.

hehe france has a reputation for treating all tourists alike ....badly.
truth be told some european countries dislike americans more than others.

 

[Apos]

As long as violence and hateful chants are left out, a rally is fine.

Republicans are such hypocrites about this. Their protestors can douse themselves in blood and claim John Kerry eats live human babies, but when Whoopi makes a leud joke that wouldn't even raise an eyebrow on Jay Leno, they create a giant storm of mock outrage at how hateful the Democrats are. Rush Limbaugh and his clones can pour three hours of pure hate out on their shows everyday, but a single word of disparagement of Bush, and Republicans act like Democrats are frothing at the mouths. Michael Moore does nothing any differently from what right wing pundits do all day long, but for some reason his op-ed films are compared to Nazi propaganda, while right-wing clones of his who do exactly the same thing are just expressing their opinions (and if you go farther than that, you are full of hate!)

To Republicans: get over it. Bush has been one of the most inept, extremist Presidents in generations. People don't like him. Just because you have nothing substantive to retort when people point out his failings doesn't mean you can turn the fact that there is a LOT to criticize about him into just another talking point.

Even as a conservative, Bush is a failure on almost every level: whether small-government, libertarian, or even social (since he has accomplished almost nothing: could have had a ban on elective late-term abortions, but they instead chose to pass a bill they knew would get struck down so that not a single life was saved, but they would still have the issue for the election).

 

[PunisherUSA]

Hey, don't get me wrong. Bush isn't that great of a president (*gasp*) . It's just that I believe Kerry is worse, and don't give me any 3rd party bull. I mean, c'mon, they're politicians! Most politicians do what it takes to save their own neck, as in your example for the abortion bill.

And on Moore, I know there are conservative equivalents, but the thing is Moore does it for money. You really think he cares about us as individuals? You may say he does this best for this country which is going down a 'bad road'. I'd say Michael Savage cares about Americans, but he's even more.... eccentric than Moore.

Basically, I'm over it, but I'll pick Bush over Kerry. Hell, it probably won't even make a difference except Republicans vs. Democrats whining about te president. Each side has its faults.

But what do I care, Half-life 2 coming soon!!!! [/BADJOKE]

 

[blahblahblah]

Republicans are such hypocrites about this. Their protestors can douse themselves in blood and claim John Kerry eats live human babies, but when Whoopi makes a leud joke that wouldn't even raise an eyebrow on Jay Leno, they create a giant storm of mock outrage at how hateful the Democrats are. Rush Limbaugh and his clones can pour three hours of pure hate out on their shows everyday, but a single word of disparagement of Bush, and Republicans act like Democrats are frothing at the mouths. Michael Moore does nothing any differently from what right wing pundits do all day long, but for some reason his op-ed films are compared to Nazi propaganda, while right-wing clones of his who do exactly the same thing are just expressing their opinions (and if you go farther than that, you are full of hate!)

To Republicans: get over it. Bush has been one of the most inept, extremist Presidents in generations. People don't like him. Just because you have nothing substantive to retort when people point out his failings doesn't mean you can turn the fact that there is a LOT to criticize about him into just another talking point.

Even as a conservative, Bush is a failure on almost every level: whether small-government, libertarian, or even social (since he has accomplished almost nothing: could have had a ban on elective late-term abortions, but they instead chose to pass a bill they knew would get struck down so that not a single life was saved, but they would still have the issue for the election).

Where did this come from? I really expected better from you Apos, regardless if you are working for the Kerry campaign.

 

[Sai]

wait, just b/c apos's opinion was not the same as yours, that makes him a bad person?

 

[Farrowlesparrow]

wait, just b/c apos's opinion was not the same as yours, that makes him a bad person?

Well almost by definition a bad person is someone who simply has different opinions to you.

As an example...

In their opinion, killing those people was perfectly fine

 

[kidrock450]

Al Sharpton For President

 

[Sai]

well, the way mr.blah put it, it sounded overly one sided, like he expected a man campaining for the democratic party to be a bush supporter, that's just a bad assumption

 

[qckbeam]

I'm not going to get involved with this particular thread since it's already heading for trouble However, Apos! When did you come back?! It's nice to see you my friend How goes the campaign?

 

[kidrock450]

haha nice profile Sai

 

[gh0st]

Republicans are such hypocrites about this. Their protestors can douse themselves in blood and claim John Kerry eats live human babies, but when Whoopi makes a leud joke that wouldn't even raise an eyebrow on Jay Leno, they create a giant storm of mock outrage at how hateful the Democrats are. Rush Limbaugh and his clones can pour three hours of pure hate out on their shows everyday, but a single word of disparagement of Bush, and Republicans act like Democrats are frothing at the mouths. Michael Moore does nothing any differently from what right wing pundits do all day long, but for some reason his op-ed films are compared to Nazi propaganda, while right-wing clones of his who do exactly the same thing are just expressing their opinions (and if you go farther than that, you are full of hate!)

if you think its only republican/conservatives that act like that, you are grossly mistaken. the fact is, what you just said is the epitome of ignorance, because each political party/ideology uses the smallest things to discredit their opponents.

there is such a thing as liberal talk shows, and they are just as bad as hannity, limbaugh and others. they are meant to appeal to one group of people, and not the other.

To Republicans: get over it. Bush has been one of the most inept, extremist Presidents in generations. People don't like him. Just because you have nothing substantive to retort when people point out his failings doesn't mean you can turn the fact that there is a LOT to criticize about him into just another talking point.

people dont like him? bullshit: http://www.surveyusa.com/currentelectionpolls.html

In nightly news polls, I've even see bush pull ahead of kerry. way to read into propaganda

Even as a conservative, Bush is a failure on almost every level: whether small-government, libertarian, or even social (since he has accomplished almost nothing: could have had a ban on elective late-term abortions, but they instead chose to pass a bill they knew would get struck down so that not a single life was saved, but they would still have the issue for the election).

kerry himself has made such a positive difference while a senator.

 

[blahblahblah]

wait, just b/c apos's opinion was not the same as yours, that makes him a bad person?

I didn't mean my last post like that. When Apos posts, he usually doesn't flame or insult people. Apos normally makes good and valid posts, even if I disagree with him on certain issues. He doesn't have to be republican or even like Bush. However, it is a completely different thing when he says

Republicans are such hypocrites about this.

That crosses that fine line from disliking a president or politicial ideaologies to insulting my political beliefs. No political party is perfect, not the republicans or democrats. Not even the fabled Green party .

Anyways, this political thread was flame free for a change. It was quite nice. I still plan on watching the Democratic National Convention tonight, even though I am a republican. For the hour I will watch, the democrats will have a chance to change my vote. However, they will not get the chance to change my vote by calling me a hypocrite or calling me ignorant.

 

[el Chi]

The Offspring song "Cool to Hate" comes to mind.

It's so easy to attribute someone's current discontent with America's current administration and outlook on the world to that, isn't it? It's a nice way to shirk around the possibility that they're actually using their own sentient reasoning to come to that conclusion?
Of course, some people are swept away by the many, but the same is true for so many people who blindly support Bush and the war because otherwise they would be "un-American" and a bad person.
It works both ways.

 

[blahblahblah]

It's so easy to attribute someone's current discontent with America's current administration and outlook on the world to that, isn't it? It's a nice way to shirk around the possibility that they're actually using their own sentient reasoning to come to that conclusion?
Of course, some people are swept away by the many, but the same is true for so many people who blindly support Bush and the war because otherwise they would be "un-American" and a bad person.
It works both ways.

It was "cool to hate" France long before Bush Jr. ever thought about running for the White House. It just became known to the rest of the world in recent years.

Anyways, I don't understand your point. It was nothing about politics, I was simply commenting on how people tend to follow other people. If a few people hate the French, it becomes the "cool" thing to do. There are real reasons why Americans dislike the French, but I do not think it warrants this level of hatred.

 

[el Chi]

It was "cool to hate" France long before Bush Jr. ever thought about running for the White House. It just became known to the rest of the world in recent years.
Anyways, I don't understand your point. It was nothing about politics, I was simply commenting on how people tend to follow other people. If a few people hate the French, it becomes the "cool" thing to do. There are real reasons why Americans dislike the French, but I do not think it warrants this level of hatred.

I'm sorry - I got the wrong end of the stick. I thought you were referring to "Cool to hate Bush" Sorry

You're absolutely right, a lot of people have decided they hate the French, despite never having been there, met a French person or experienced French culture beyond "Freedom Fries." It is a band-wagon and it has been blown out of proportion.
The French are, on the whole, decent people in a nice country with fabulous food, some great film-makers and some excellent music too. They have their little foibles - the arrogant, sometimes condescending French people stereotype certainly has its roots in truth, but of course it doesn't apply to everyone all of the time - but then who doesn't.

 

[blahblahblah]

I'm sorry - I got the wrong end of the stick. I thought you were referring to "Cool to hate Bush" Sorry

Yeah, this thread has gone from off topic, to waaaayyyy off topic to back on topic. Kinda of confusing. lol

:cheers:

 

[Apos]

And on Moore, I know there are conservative equivalents, but the thing is Moore does it for money.

Oh, sure. Limbaugh and O'Reily have part time jobs as short order cooks to support their jobs, which don't pay them anything.



But I am more than willing to believe that Moore AND his right wing equivalents do it because they believe in what they are doing. The money is nice, and a way to make a living, but it's a living doing what they like. I just object to the fact that Moore is called a Nazi propagandist while people in their own camp who do exactly the same thing on a daily basis won't even accept people suggesting that they are biased or don't tell the whole story.

That crosses that fine line from disliking a president or politicial ideaologies to insulting my political beliefs.

Do you not agree that it's hypocritical to go absurdly negative and then call the Democrats bitter and angry based on random incidents like a Whoopi joke? Kerry's campaign ads have been almost completely positive in terms of all his large media buys. Bush's campaign ads have been almost completely negative, right from the start. And yet Republicans claim, and people parrot, the idea that Democrats are all negative and hateful. Can I not find that a little irritating and frustrating? I deal with people everyday whom the Republicans have talked to telling them that John Edwards practices witchcraft: lying to them by trying to confuse TV psychic John Edward with Kerry's VP. I'm out here trying to do this honestly and by the book, and Republicans are out here telling black people that they need two forms of photo ID to vote and they'd better be sure their parking tickets are paid up, or talking about how they need to "supress" the vote in Detroit somehow to win. I'm out here telling people why I think John Kerry's policies will be good for America, and Republicans are out here telling people that Kerry is Osama Bin Laden's homo boyfriend. So forgive me if I'm a little tired of hearing people tell me that both parties are all the same, and they both do nasty things. Sure, both sides occasionally do bad things. But in terms of the overwhelming balance of things, they just don't even begin to compare.

And yeah, I object to the Republicans claiming that Democrats are the party of hate. I'm not trying to insult people who vote for the party on the issues, but I am objecting to the behavior of the party itself, and I think rightly so. "Tu quoque" is not an excuse.

there is such a thing as liberal talk shows, and they are just as bad as hannity, limbaugh and others.

Please, point me to these liberal talk shows. There just aren't anywhere near comparable to Hannity or O'Reily. The only thing that comes close is AirAmerica, which only started this year specifically to combat the overwhelming prevalence of right-wing pundits.

people dont like him? bullshit: http://www.surveyusa.com/currentelectionpolls.html

In nightly news polls, I've even see bush pull ahead of kerry. way to read into propaganda

In context, you'll see that by "people" I didn't say anything about polls. I just said that people (some) don't like him, and to get over it. If someone thinks this President is lousy, and if he actually is lousy, then it stands to reason that there will be a lot to criticize. To then turn around and claim that people are hysterical for criticizing all his faults is ridiculous. Either refute their criticisms or don't. But don't attack the very idea of criticism.

 

[Direwolf]

Note: anyone dragging this thread farther off topic will be shot
I will now immedietly violate that by saying I do see why some people are a bit more annoyed by Moore and other liberals than their conservative counterparts. I've seen an awful lot of the right-wing counterparts, and I've always proffessed being on neither side of the political scene, but for some reason the liberal side (and Moore in particular) grates much worse upon my mind. It may be their somewhat Machiavellian nature or tendency to grab the limelight, but I've never been able to tolerate them as easily.

 

[blahblahblah]

Do you not agree that it's hypocritical to go absurdly negative and then call the Democrats bitter and angry based on random incidents like a Whoopi joke? Kerry's campaign ads have been almost completely positive in terms of all his large media buys. Bush's campaign ads have been almost completely negative, right from the start. And yet Republicans claim, and people parrot, the idea that Democrats are all negative and hateful. Can I not find that a little irritating and frustrating? I deal with people everyday whom the Republicans have talked to telling them that John Edwards practices witchcraft: lying to them by trying to confuse TV psychic John Edward with Kerry's VP. I'm out here trying to do this honestly and by the book, and Republicans are out here telling black people that they need two forms of photo ID to vote and they'd better be sure their parking tickets are paid up, or talking about how they need to "supress" the vote in Detroit somehow to win. I'm out here telling people why I think John Kerry's policies will be good for America, and Republicans are out here telling people that Kerry is Osama Bin Laden's homo boyfriend. So forgive me if I'm a little tired of hearing people tell me that both parties are all the same, and they both do nasty things. Sure, both sides occasionally do bad things. But in terms of the overwhelming balance of things, they just don't even begin to compare.

And yeah, I object to the Republicans claiming that Democrats are the party of hate. I'm not trying to insult people who vote for the party on the issues, but I am objecting to the behavior of the party itself, and I think rightly so. "Tu quoque" is not an excuse.

You're going to hate this, but the democrats do the same thing. My friend is a democrat and sometimes we listen to NPR when he is driving. As a republican, it amazed me how the world is different on the other side of the fence. What may seem normal to you, is absurd to me. Vice Versa.

It is just as easy for me to find people bashing Bush, just as easy as I can find people Bashing Kerry.

To be frank, I am subscribed to several republican newsletters. About 50% is propaganda while the other 50% is seeking donations for money. I am willing to bet (no scratch that, I know) that democrat newsletters are the same way. The difference is, that I am willing to support my political beliefs but I am willing to realize that some of the info I receive is pure garbage. You can deny it all you want and say democrats don't do those things, but that would be incorrect.

I can easily go to several pro-Kerry websites and pull numerous quotes that are propaganda. Its sad to say that neither side is clean.

Good Luck with your work. I hope it goes better for you. :cheers:

 

[yadalogo]

I believe in anarchy. sure once it comes things will be chaotic for a while but then eventually people will come together to create a better way of life.

 

[Apos]

You're going to hate this, but the democrats do the same thing. My friend is a democrat and sometimes we listen to NPR when he is driving.

Comparing NPR, which features conservatives and Republicans in almost equal measure and whose hosts chat with them and interview them instead of berating them to Rush Limbaugh is beyond beyond beyond ridiculous.

I can easily go to several pro-Kerry websites and pull numerous quotes that are propaganda. Its sad to say that neither side is clean.

True, but that doesn't mean there aren't overwhelming differences. Just because you can point to this or that example of perfidy on either side doesn't show that everyone's the same. Out where I'm working, I AM and am with the Democratic campaign movement. I know everything we're doing here. We really aren't playing dirty. But we really are getting played dirty. That's just the way it is. That's the way it seems like it is everywhere. And while Kerry stuff plays up strengths and plays down weaknesses like all political spin, there just isn't the out and out deception and maddening distortion on our side. We don't really have anything to compare to claiming that Kerry voted to gut intelligence funding or against body armor or to increase taxes 350 times.

 

[blahblahblah]

True, but that doesn't mean there aren't overwhelming differences. Just because you can point to this or that example of perfidy on either side doesn't show that everyone's the same. Out where I'm working, I AM and am with the Democratic campaign movement. I know everything we're doing here. We really aren't playing dirty. But we really are getting played dirty. That's just the way it is. That's the way it seems like it is everywhere. And while Kerry stuff plays up strengths and plays down weaknesses like all political spin, there just isn't the out and out deception and maddening distortion on our side. We don't really have anything to compare to claiming that Kerry voted to gut intelligence funding or against body armor or to increase taxes 350 times.

To me, bashing and deceit is a slippery slope. Once you start, you can't stop and you have no idea how far you will fall. I'll concede that republicians are vicious, but democrats can't claim "I am holier than you" because you deceit less than republicians. Once you get on the slipper slope, it is really difficult to get off. In this respect, both sides have lost...lost horribly.

Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone. That is what comes to mind for this entire discussion betwee you and me. I don't want to change your politicial beliefs, I want you to see that both sides have a lot of problems and need a lot of work.

From my experience, republicians supporters are not as evil as you say they are. I have no doubts there are one or two people who spoil the bunch and make your life hard for you. However, more than likely, people who are actively supporting Bush are more like you than you think.

Good Luck

PS - Remember, even though I disagree with your politicial beliefs you are helping to keep a vital part of our democracy alive. Don't forget that.

 

[kidrock450]

I believe in anarchy. sure once it comes things will be chaotic for a while but then eventually people will come together to create a better way of life.

lol youve gotta be kidding me..

 

[Tr0n]

I believe in anarchy. sure once it comes things will be chaotic for a while but then eventually people will come together to create a better way of life.

LOL!Your being sarcastic...right?

 

[kidrock450]

Im trying to get what Yadalogo said as my sig lol. thats just precious.

 

[Sai]

well, i'm still not sure what the convention will be held....someone mind informing me?

 

[DarkStar]

Clinton's speech was really good.

 

[Apos]

I'll concede that republicians are vicious, but democrats can't claim "I am holier than you" because you deceit less than republicians. Once you get on the slipper slope, it is really difficult to get off. In this respect, both sides have lost...lost horribly.

I guess, but the thing is that if anything is out of the ordinary, it's how positive the Kerry Campaign has been, and how negative the Bush campaign has been (especially for an incubent! These sorts of races are supposed to be all about the incumbent running on his record: instead its like Bush has already lost that argument, and we are just arguing over whether Kerry is the right man to replace him). Statistically, Kerry's campaign is one of the most positive in recent history (in terms of the fewest attack ads) and Bush's the most negative (same measure). The Kerry campaign will have to go negative at some point later on, but I bet that even when they do it won't be as anywhere near as nasty or dishonest. But if people are tired of negativity, I wish they'd actually give us some credit for that, SUPPORT that sort of thing, instead of just habitually singing the refrain of "everyone's the same." Reward good behavior, punish bad, and you may well see more good behavior. The reason both campaigns go negative is because the people react well to it, even while complaining that they don't like it. They reward bad behavior, and so they get more of it.

And there's a big difference between what this or that person says or does on their own, which the party can't control (and Democrats have always been less organized than Republicans, though this convention has them playing the unity card pretty darn well), and the party's own strategy. This year, the Republican party is using fear of homosexuals the same way it used to use fear of African Americans in the South. This isn't some outlaw wing of the party, this is the actual party platform out on the campaign trail.

From my experience, republicians supporters are not as evil as you say they are.

You misunderstand me. I'm not taling about Republican voters, but Republican party people, out on the campaign trail. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that not all Republicans support the sorts of things their party is doing. But their lack of awareness doesn't change the reality out on the ground.

 

[el Chi]

Im trying to get what Yadalogo said as my sig lol. thats just precious.

Just checking here kidrock - you do understand that he's referring to the genuine political ideology of Anarchism? Yes it has gained connotations for meaning pandemonium, however that is not what true Anarchists stand for. The Anarchists who go around smashing in McDonalds' on May Day thinking they are making a "political statement" are brutish hooligans with no idea what they are talking about and a limited understanding of politics and globalisation as a whole.

Anarchism is the idea that we live in small communes and do essentially what is right for that small community in a genuinely democratic fashion. That way, peoples' voices are heard more than if it were in a vast mass of people as in the populous of a nation. It shares similarities to Communism in that all must be equal. To relate it to gaming, it is similar to what Tracer Tong suggested at the end of Deus Ex.

However I object to Anarchism because it is simply too parochial; it is potentially dangerous and quite dull to close oneself off from the rest of the world in such a way.

If you actually understood what he was referring to, then I don't understand why it was funny enough to be sigged.

 

[CyberSh33p]

Just checking here kidrock - you do understand that he's referring to the genuine political ideology of Anarchism? Yes it has gained connotations for meaning pandemonium, however that is not what true Anarchists stand for. The Anarchists who go around smashing in McDonalds' on May Day thinking they are making a "political statement" are brutish hooligans with no idea what they are talking about and a limited understanding of politics and globalisation as a whole.

Anarchism is the idea that we live in small communes and do essentially what is right for that small community in a genuinely democratic fashion. That way, peoples' voices are heard more than if it were in a vast mass of people as in the populous of a nation. It shares similarities to Communism in that all must be equal. To relate it to gaming, it is similar to what Tracer Tong suggested at the end of Deus Ex.

However I object to Anarchism because it is simply too parochial; it is potentially dangerous and quite dull to close oneself off from the rest of the world in such a way.

If you actually understood what he was referring to, then I don't understand why it was funny enough to be sigged.

damn, chi, way to blow the tires out in the funmobile :|

 

[Direwolf]

In my view both sides pull so much BS so often that I don't care which is (slightly) cleaner. Both sides happen to be allied with powerful jerks, and neither one can deny making jabs at the other one.
I'm sure that eventually someone is going to win one of these races simply by cutting out all the BS and just being normal, but until that happens I accept it as part of the whole system.

 

[el Chi]

damn, chi, way to blow the tires out in the funmobile :|

Actually I was aiming for the tyres of the uninformed-nonce-mobile.
It was a driveby from the condescending-student-mobile.

Screw it - I was just trying to defend yadalogo from being ridiculed. Right before I then criticised his political beliefs...

 

[CyberSh33p]

Actually I was aiming for the tyres of the uninformed-nonce-mobile.
It was a driveby from the condescending-student-mobile.

Screw it - I was just trying to defend yadalogo from being ridiculed. Right before I then criticised his political beliefs...

Brilliant old boy, and I must say your aim was indeed spot-on! you got both! Says wonders for spray and pray, doesn't it chap?

[SARCASM]I'm a republican militaristic neo-socialist, but the militaristic part is just for gusto![/SARCASM]
edit: no one saw this...
actually, thats my friend, I'm an ignoramus, dear lad.