? Did Valve Lie ?

[phantomdesign]

The “screw valve” attitude presented by some on this forum is extremely inappropriate and uninformed. Valve is a great company, and we should at least show appreciation in hopes for even more great games!

Did Valve lie?

1. Who really gives a **** if they lied? They’re making the most awesome game yet.
2. How can you lie if you say nothing at all? As far as I can tell they’ve said practically nothing.

How many games that are 5 years old do you regularly play today? I’d guess ONE! If they lie, but still release another game that last another 5 years until it is eclipsed by Half Life 3, would you really care? I think now.

The hacker message
Chances are this message is not actually from the hacker, but another source. For example, it could have easily originated from anyone, including me. I doubt it is the real hacker since there is an obvious expression if ignorance about the game development process (continued below). I would expect the hacker to have increased knowledge of programming, and have a minimal understanding of what he was looking at.
Chances are the message is from some 14 year old kid having fun, or an employee of a rival company wishing to spread bad publicity about valve. It really does not matter that most people would disagree with the content of the message, but the bad PR this message would spread is enough to please a rival.
Valve has probably well over $100,000 already because of the hackers actions, and due to effects of posting the source, they will probably loose over a million. Even if the hacker was right (that would take a massive stretch), I see no reason to support such actions.

Status of Beta vs. Status of E3 demo
I would like to start by pointing out that it would be a practical impossibility and a massive waste of time to fake shader effects, particle effects, water effects, etc for a real-time presentation. It is fairly obvious that it is not pre-rendered because some of the physical movements don’t line up perfectly. Below is a simple list of just graphical differences (while there non-graphical things missing, I wont waste my breath).

• The release was obviously not in a “showcase-ready-format.” The large debugging overlay on the right makes this quite obvious.
• Shader effects: Many cool shader effects were obviously missing from the screen shots, which were obvious in the E3 demo. Shader effects make things look glossy, or give it depth or texture. Rather than a slimy looking squiggly monster, you end up with a regular flat-skinned boring monster of all preexisting games.
• Missing particle effects: It appears that all true particle effects are missing. This means no steam, fog, smoke, sparks, etc. Particle effects in some shape or form greatly help the graphics of the game.
• Missing electrical effects: Just to point out how shitty this is…half life 1 had some pretty cool looking electrical effects.
• Missing models: Various models are missing like computer monitors and stuff. It’s like mostly empty rooms.
• Missing liquid effects: This is the first thing that made me say awesome as a graphics person....but HL2 without these effects? I think not.
• Textures: Some textures are obviously missing or incomplete.
• Overlay: Would you really want to buy a game with something covering up a significant portion of the screen?
• …need I continue???

The Delay
And programmer knows that delays are inevitable. To actually hit a your guessed release date and have a result you are pleased with is unheard of. For those who have ever watched the video-gaming industry, you’d realist that over 85% of worthwhile games are delayed. If you ever want to win some easy money, bet some punk that a game will not hit its first release date.
Games that do hit their release date suck. It can pretty much be summed up by “Games-Made-For-Movies” titles, like “Exit the Matix.” I have a feeling practically none of you are beta-testers, so chances are if you play the beta, you recleve an exit-the-matrix experience and become frustrated with the game. Valve knows when it is best to release the game, so I would suggest you be patient and TRUST they know what they are doing.

What about Valve now?
I’m sure all of you know valve is a money making business, and that is their ultimate goal. I doubt anyone here could reach such a lofty goal as Half Life 2 production without such a goal. Valve has worked long an hard on this game, and has invested millions of dollars. They even have invested personal interest PAST their money-making goal. Sure great customer support is a money-making tactic, but it is obvious to me that it is not their full motivation.

The next person (or any person) who says something reminiscent of “screw Valve” deserves to never play Half Life 2, or any other game remotely connected to Valve…EVER!!! Now that you aren’t allowed to play Half Life 2, Counterstrike 2, CS Condition Zero, etc…how does if feel?

I’m not trying to make some fluffy support valve thread “cuzz itz de rite thang 2 du” thread. I’m not even going to ask you to delete your ILLEGAL beta, but I’m trying to present some common sense. Valve is making a great game (the best in my opinion), and the least you can do is show appreciation. You don’t owe valve anything or spend time protecting the source code, but this screw valve attitude is not right. If you want all of the awesome modifications for Half Life 2, I would suggest you make it an enjoyable process for valve to communicate with their customer base.


Resources for further reading: (generally you don’t need to read past the first post)

The original request for help from Gabe.
http://www.halflife2.net/forums/sho...;threadid=10692

“THE REAL DEAL with the HL2 source” He obviously knows what he is talking about. As a programmer, I can verify all info in the first post.
http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12128

This one discusses differences between the E3 video & the Beta screenshots.
http://www.halflife2.net/forums/sho...;threadid=11691

Interesting read:
http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12530

More stuff about why the beta is incomplete & valve in on schedule:
http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12428

Some very well done research on technical graphics issues:
http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12128

 

[Dr-X]

Awesome post dude.

I have NEVER called valve liars, and i have never said they lied, and to this day i maintain they've been nothing but perfectly honest and trustworthy.

For reasons beyond their control, hl2 was delayed, and that got people all angry. Some of the more ignorant members of the community are still sticking to their guns that valve are liars, but if you look at the facts, valve have been nothing but excellent to the community, MUCH MUCH better than most game developers.

Again, im 100% behind valve, and i always will be.

 

[Dr-X]

hmm, im having a hard time deciding between "Give them a crowbar and plenty of boxes and tell them to get a life." and "Build them a separate colony for their hacker-worship. Cults tend to have a way of taking care of themselves.".

What do you think phantom?

 

[FISKER_Q]

Yeah i agree.

Couple with the fact that CS:CZ which he also released also were several months old. It was made by Ritual, and they changed to Turtle Rock some time ago.

Also the presence of "Days to 09/30/03" in the version number.

If it was the 19th september the build was from, i think Valve obviously would know if it was coming out or not. So there would be no need for that build text at all.


Edit:

Also a Danish community had emailed Gabe. And they have apparently located the hacker.

They've tracked it down to Denmark ;(

"As it stands right now we can conclude it is not any hacking group, our/police investigations points on a single person from Denmark".


More Edit: Release the headcrabs!

 

[phantomdesign]

Thanks My feeling exactly.

I don't know. I voted crowbar, so you vote 4 the other one.

 

[Dr-X]

yeah i went for the colony

 

[Shodan]

Probably they did lie, a bit.

 

[phantomdesign]

Originally posted by Shodan
Probably they did lie, a bit.

Do you have any evidence? Cite a Valve statement, then cite a piece of evidence. Such complete random speculation is not constructive.

 

[poseyjmac]

i just want to say to the poster:

you formatted your post very well, nice job.

 

[Mr. Redundant]

well done Phantom, very nicely articulated post, well thought out.
You convey your point with clear concise examples and logic.
I applaud you and hope to see a lot more of you around the forums in the near future.

 

[phantomdesign]

Thanks poseyjmac

I do my best to make it easy to find relevant information and skip irrelevant information. It’s a natural curse of having too much to say. Imagine if that was 1 or 3 long paragraphs with no headings? Some topics on this forum, I think I’d rather have a headcrab as a pet.

I also try to break it up with some humor. I usually helps keep things under control.

Redundant:
I hope I wasn’t too redundant . I’m sure you will see me around in one way or another. I’m considering developing a MOD for Half Life 2 with some of my car stuff (www.GryphonAuto.com). At the very least it’ll feature drivable cars in multiplayer, then I’ll proceed further replacing weapons and tweaking game-play issues.

 

[Mr. Redundant]

wow those models are amazing how long have you been modeling?
very impressive.. what is their average polycount?

edit: that inferno is simply stunning

 

[FriScho]

pointless

 

[phantomdesign]

I've been modeling for less than 2 years....self taught.

 

[HUGEkebab]

i sincerely think valve are misleading the public. the excuse for the latest release is the hack. the beta was recent, and if youve seen it then youll see itsd in a nowhere near finished state. to keep claiming they could make a sept the 30th release on this basis is just a lie. they knew they wouldnt make the date. and ccan somebody please tell me how you hack valve and download 10 gigabytes (all the files leaked come to that) without them knowing. pfff dont beleive a word of it. :cheers:

 

[FISKER_Q]

I haven't seen anywhere Valve saying it's because of the hack.

 

[phantomdesign]

• Don’t confuse Valve with the publisher Vivendi.
• I already proved the beta was incomplete, whether or not the beta is old.

I see no reason to recognize your argument. You aren’t a programmer, you know little about hacking, and they didn’t keep claiming they were going to meet the release date (as I said, valve has said practically nothing). Please do real research before you start/continue to spread misconceptions. You are being counterproductive and obvious have no clue what you are talking about.

Thank you,
Common Sense

 

[crabcakes66]

I agree 100% phantom. Good post. We need more of these.

Edit: I especialy like your last option in the poll

 

[Brian Damage]

Feed 'em all into a meatgrinder, and use the output as fertilizer for VALVe headquarters' flower gardens.

Though, the headcrab one *is* enticing.

Seeya.

 

[Mountain Man]

While the initial post is very informative, it must be pointed out that Valve kept Half-Life 2 under wraps for five years and, by their admission, only announced it when they knew they could deliver on a given date, that date being September 30, a date that was reiterated by Valve countless times over the months since the game's unveiling. Problem is, rumors of the delay started floating around shortly after the announcement with Valve emphatically stating the rumors were false and that the game really wasn't going to be delayed until Holiday 2003 but released on time. They kept up this charade for four months. Then, less than a week from their promised release day, they said, "Oh, by the way, the game is delayed until Holiday 2003."

So did Valve lie? Did they underestimate the time they needed to finish the game? Was it marketing, where they named an overly optimistic release date with every intention of turning it into a moving target? And what of the rumor of the latest April 2004 delay that Valve has been reluctant to address? It's hard to say. But I do know one thing, Valve needs to stop jerking its customers around.

 

[GhostValkyrie]

Nice post. I like your thinking, my friend. Here, *Hands drink to Phantom* ,to the Holidays, VALVe, and Hl2!

-Ghost.

 

[crabcakes66]

Originally posted by Mountain Man
While the initial post is very informative, it must be pointed out that Valve kept Half-Life 2 under wraps for five years and, by their admission, only announced it when they knew they could deliver on a given date, that date being September 30, a date that was reiterated by Valve countless times over the months since the game's unveiling. Problem is, rumors of the delay started floating around shortly after the announcement with Valve emphatically stating the rumors were false and that the game really wasn't going to be delayed until Holiday 2003 but released on time. They kept up this charade for four months. Then, less than a week from their promised release day, they said, "Oh, by the way, the game is delayed until Holiday 2003."

So did Valve lie? Did they underestimate the time they needed to finish the game? Was it marketing, where they named an overly optimistic release date with every intention of turning it into a moving target? And what of the rumor of the latest April 2004 delay that Valve has been reluctant to address? It's hard to say. But I do know one thing, Valve needs to stop jerking its customers around.

dont forget HL1.....they spent a year rewriting the game after it was finished......

 

[Mountain Man]

Also troubling is what has been dubbed "Valve's Wall of Silence". Really, they need to come clean with their fans. If they suspect they'll have to delay until Q1 2004 then just say so, but this refusing to acknowledge further delays is not endearing them to certain members of the community. I'd have so much more respect for Valve if they simply said, "If you have money set aside for Half-Life 2, go ahead and spend it on something else because Half-Life 2 won't be out for a while."

Area 51 is fine when you're developing the game in secret, but once the cat is out of the bag, it's time to keep your fans better informed.

 

[fez]

haha, nice post. the poll was good too. i wish ppl would stop going on about the hacking incident, personally i think we have scrutinised it enough. its nice to see ppl making posts about HL1 and also making up theories for things that have been shown in HL2 movies

 

[Fenrir]

Grrrreat post! There actually is some sense in these boards.

I think the Sept. 30th delay had a very good reason and they don't have to tell us anything. I doubt they have anything to say.

 

[Dhoco X]

Did Valve Lie ?

- Yes.

 

[ulukai]

Yeah they lie a bit like everybody.
They dont release hl2 because it don t work perfectly with steam to sell the game and to play multiplayer.

For the april date saying it's because they stole hl2 beta and codes etc... it's true.

But if they want to not lose money like that, put the game gold without steam support and make patch like every gamedevellopers.

HL it's the game the most patched why hl2 could be like that.

 

[phantomdesign]

Well, the next screw valve person is going to get a link to this thread and a warning to watch out for headcraps.


Wow......47/75 votes 4 the head crabs. Could someone change me from "Headcrab" to "UNLEASH THE HEADCRABS!!!" That would be awesome!

 

[weeds]

Well, I think that Sept 30th date was a lie, unfortunately.

I base this on 2 things:
1. The beta isn't even close to being a game.
2. Gabe lied about the release of HL1 way back when.

Remember when it, HL1, was supposed to be released in Sept (like HL2)
and was delayed for an entire year? A year and 2 months to be exact.
When gamespot ran an article about the 'making of HL1' Gabe mentioned that they "lied to the community about how far along they were because they were EMBARASSED".

I think this may be whats happening.
There is no doubt ANON delayed it even more, but I don't think they had a chance of making Sept 30, and they knew it.

 

[phantomdesign]

Even if they did lie, you know they're making the most kick ass game ever. I would also like to point out they haven't really said much about the game's progress, and any responses have been vague. It's hard to lie if you don't say anything.



Also, missing a release date isn't a lie....just a mistake(or not a mistake as the game will be even cooler).

 

[weeds]

Its one thing to say "we are going to release in 2 months on ___ date" and then miss the date. Missing release dates is nothing new.
Its another thing when you say "we're gonna release in 1 month on ___ date" knowing you couldnt possibly make that date.

 

[Dougy]

i could swear ive already posted in this topic.

its a lot like the 40 other ones where some retarded fanboys says ppl who are pissed at valve says we owe them something?

as far as im concerned the only thing i ever owed valve was £30 and in return they gave me a game.

all this "there great and you dont like them" is ppls personal opinions and i for one would like silly kids to quit fu**** saying i owe something to a company thats not done anything for me that i havent given them in return.


Im beginning to seriously belive that Headcrabs should not be alowed to post threads.

 

[phantomdesign]

Maybe they thought they'd make the release date. Programming can be very unpredicatable, especailly if you have billions of ideas of cool extra features to add to the game. Your post didn't make too much sense, but I see no evidence to support your random theories. I'd rather play with theories like Gabe is really Elvis Presly. At least talking about something like that can be fun.

Even if they did lie, I DONT CARE!

 

[nw909]

I'd test that mod out in real life.

 

[phantomdesign]

I said...

I’m not trying to make some fluffy support valve thread “cuzz itz de rite thang 2 du” thread. I’m not even going to ask you to delete your ILLEGAL beta, but I’m trying to present some common sense. Valve is making a great game (the best in my opinion), and the least you can do is show appreciation. You don’t owe valve anything or spend time protecting the source code, but this screw valve attitude is not right. If you want all of the awesome modifications for Half Life 2, I would suggest you make it an enjoyable process for valve to communicate with their customer base.

Dougy

• Try making some sense.
• Get your facts straight…
• …then shut your mouth about people who have better things to do than spend 24/7 on HL2.net forums.

 

[Wolf]

Why do people assume that because the compiled source of the Engine is relatively modern (ie - pre-E3) that this also must mean that the resources and game content are too? Clearly the beta doesn't even match E3 quality (placeholder art, out of date models, sounds and textures missing, different quality etc etc), so I wouldn't be trying to draw any conclusions about the game's progress from that. It seems to me, to be much more probable that this guy took some proof of concept content and put together an ad hock collection of whatever he could find in some older folders...

Valve has said all along that it is now fine tuning and polishing, that the multiplayer is working and fun, and that Steam was the only real concern... It is just amazing that some people want to turn this into an elaborate web of lies just to vindicate the word of some weenie hacker criminal. Where's the common sense in that?

Re: lying
Also, since when did reiterating a 'tentative' release date ever amount to lying in the gaming industry anyway? You're free to make your own judgements of course, but I'd suggest that in the interests of consistency you'd also have to go out on a witch hunt and condemn just about every other decent developer on the planet while you're at it... Then again I suppose that consistency has never been a strong point of whinging little brats who d/l warez and unauthorised leaks...

 

[Kadayi]

Nice sentiments to the thread. Quick heads up to all the people who are naive enough to think that the 'beta' is actually current code........it's not, infact it probably pre dates the E3 movies. The source code that was obtained was more current, but the game files the hacker used to compile the 'beta' are practically redundant. That's why there are so many error messages when you play it because of the inconsistency between what the engine wants to run with regarding resources, and what resources it has available to it.

As for 'lying' about the release date, the release only got put back after the hack was discovered, and up until that point Valves clear policy was to stick to that date. There is a lot of speculation about the 'importance' of steam, but frankly big online issues are best dealt with there and then through patching (like with MMPORPGs). It's hard to know what to optimise unless you can see and experience it. If Valve really didn't think that they were going to be able to hit the 30th then there is no logical reason why they wouldn't say 'Sorry to say dudes, but the games been delayed for a few months while we sort out blah blah blah', they wouldn't be the first game to slip, and they certainly wouldn't be the last, and as someone said earlier generally the games that make the target suck badly.

Personally I'm sceptical of the vivendi announced date of april 2004. However I suspect that Valves silence its probably due to the ongoing investigation regarding the hacking, as any form of statement might impart information that might well invalidate a legal case, however irrelevant or seemingly unrelated.

 

[Dhoco X]

Yeah they lie a bit like everybody.

A bit ? Man, can't you see ! Thats was a BIG lie that shaked the world !

 

[Saltpeter]

Originally posted by Kadayi Polokov
Nice sentiments to the thread. Quick heads up to all the people who are naive enough to think that the 'beta' is actually current code........it's not, infact it probably pre dates the E3 movies. The source code that was obtained was more current, but the game files the hacker used to compile the 'beta' are practically redundant. That's why there are so many error messages when you play it because of the inconsistency between what the engine wants to run with regarding resources, and what resources it has available to it.

Hear hear!

 

[weeds]

Originally posted by Kadayi Polokov
If Valve really didn't think that they were going to be able to hit the 30th then there is no logical reason why they wouldn't say 'Sorry to say dudes, but the games been delayed for a few months while we sort out blah blah blah', they wouldn't be the first game to slip, and they certainly wouldn't be the last, and as someone said earlier generally the games that make the target suck badly.

There may be no logical reason not to come clean, but they ARE guilty of doing just that with HL1.
They were saying holiday release for a long time suddenly, one day in sept, they come on the contaminated.net forums and make the announcement that the game won't be released for another year.
Here we were, Valve fanboys, following the game from the beginning, expecting a release within weeks and BAM...still got another year wait.

Gabe admitted to all of that in that gamespot article I mentioned.
They aren't being completely honest with us is what I think.