Does God Exist?

No, because the existence of invisible pink dinosaurs would have no effect on my opinion of life. The existence of God would provide a reason for an otherwise meaningless life.
 
Higlac said:
No, because the existence of invisible pink dinosaurs would have no effect on my opinion of life. The existence of God would provide a reason for an otherwise meaningless life.
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I forgot to mention that moments before your death they sing you a soothing dinosaur lullaby and take you to a place where you frolic and dance in ecstasy for eternity with your invisible pink dinosaur overlords.

Now that invisible pink dinosaurs effect your opinion of life do you seriously consider their existence? Yes or no.
 
Have they been documented for thousands of years?

Also, did they help shape life or the universe in any way? And do they have a well defined system of beliefs?
 
Higlac said:
There is a big difference between humans and animals though. Humans are capable of reason. We are fundamentally different from animals.
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We are animals. We are not fundamentally different.
Sure, if they're wrong, then they miss one hour per week, and some community service every once in a while, but they've still lived a fulfilling life. But what if they're right?
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Don't forget killing. Lots of war, and killing in the name of.

Why would they be right? 72 virgins Vs. eternal paradise. Yeah, these are likely scenarios once you are no longer alive. :rolleyes:

Nobody knows what happens after death, there is one recorded instance of someone coming back from the dead, but the most common response to that seems to be "lol zombie jew." Millions of people believe this "cult" but no one here seems to appreciate the value that it can bring to life.
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That's a cop-out. Obviously once we are dead we can't come back to describe what it is like. But, I don't think there could be anything easier to imagine.

You are no longer conscious. Obviously, you no longer think or feel, or sense anything of any kind. You've no longer have these abilities once your brain is dead. I can't understand why anyone would think that it's more complicated than that.

Also, people have temporarily died before, and after they are revived to recount their experience.

What is this value you speak of? Describe it. It's an emotional feeling? Of course we value our lives, our existence, and our friends and family, etc.
 
But consider this, if you suddenly cease to exist when you die, then why do you ever begin existence in the first place? Being dead and not existing is the exact same as not existing before you were born. There is no dimension of time in non existence. So depending on how you define your identity, death is transient.
 
Dan said:
But consider this, if you suddenly cease to exist when you die, then why do you ever begin existence in the first place? Being dead and not existing is the exact same as not existing before you were born. There is no dimension of time in non existence. So depending on how you define your identity, death is transient.
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Are you implying reincarnation?
 
Dan said:
There is no dimension of time in non existence.
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Indeed. I may have not existed for billions of years or more, but when my life began - now amongst the living - it probably felt like I was never dead.

But, with all of our worldly experience, if we could experience that again - what it was like to become self aware for the first time, in that moment, what would it be like?

death is transient.
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If you want to look at like that; still, eventually it's permanent.
 
I've always wondered that too Virus. Along with what happens to our awareness when we die? To conceptualize just not existing from there onwards is a harrowing thought (guess that is another reason people would turn to religion, life after death).
 
It's scary to consider no longer being here, because being alive is pretty cool. And it's scary in the moments leading up to your death, but after that it is eternal peace.

Your awareness requires your brain to be alive. Maybe you meant something else.
 
Well, this is technically a moment (of many) leading each of our deaths. To be aware is all each of us has ever known, and to think that we will all one day will lose that...
 
Well, it would be cool if we could upload the entire capacity of our brain onto a computer chip. One day, we can - I'm sure of it. How the computer deals with it (or translates it - as in memories) is another matter. Think of a memory where you see your family standing there - some important event. It's like a cloudy video clip right? Well, I'm not sure how the brain stores things like this, but... well, never mind, this is over my head.

Actually, it's interesting because our body is merely a device of the brain. Our brain simply requires blood oxygen and a particular operating temperature. So, it will be possible to hook it up to a machine. The funny thing is, that brain will not have any senses. If you can keep it alive though, it would keep all of it's memories and knowledge. This could be useful in the race of cyborgs. I could go on for about 30 minutes here.
 
They would have your memories, but would they have "you"? All your personality, behavior, beliefs and morals, what makes you unique as a human being, how would one ever contain that, if we ever could?

If this is derailing the thread I'll be quiet about this :)
 
Self existence and identity is an arbitrary thing. There is no reason for you to exist, or for your identity to be such that it is. In absolute terms, the existence of anything is meaningless and thus arbitrary. You are only defined by yourself in a self perpetuating manner. There really is no causality, just a spontaneous generation of coherent patterns. Why are you who you are and not someone else, or a frog? Well the answer is that you could be, but then you wouldn't be yourself anymore. See, you aren't really an independent entity at all, just a random collection of parameters. It so happens that we are all a similar collection of parameters that have the capability to think and to discuss. Other similarly arbitrary identities, such as some pattern in your desk, are not able to think or talk, and thus do not interact with us.

It so happens that our identity is tied to time. In what manner exactly I am not sure. Does your identity only exist for an instant of time? Does it exist for all time? We are fundamentally linked into the physical world that supports our existence. How does your identity travel or change from one instant to the next. Surely we are not the same person we were 10 years ago. Did that person "die". Their identity no longer exists. If our identity can change over time, where do you stop being yourself and cease to exist?

So what does death mean in this context? If identity is elastic, and not fixed, then maybe some similar component of your identity can exist in completely different physical situations (different universes). This would not so much mean existence after death as parallel existence with no chance of interaction. But it is nice to know that you still exist somewhere. For that matter, since time doesn't matter after death, you do still exist on Earth for the time frame that you existed, and you always will exist for that period of time.
 
VirusType2 said:
Well, it would be cool if we could upload the entire capacity of our brain onto a computer chip. One day, we can - I'm sure of it. How the computer deals with it (or translates it - as in memories) is another matter. Think of a memory where you see your family standing there - some important event. It's like a cloudy video clip right? Well, I'm not sure how the brain stores things like this, but... well, never mind, this is over my head.

Actually, it's interesting because our body is merely a device of the brain. Our brain simply requires blood oxygen and a particular operating temperature. So, it will be possible to hook it up to a machine. The funny thing is, that brain will not have any senses. If you can keep it alive though, it would keep all of it's memories and knowledge. This could be useful in the race of cyborgs. I could go on for about 30 minutes here.
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If you think about it, that could be the case in this very instant.

We are probably dead, but our brain is kept alive and we're simply reliving our memory from the very beginning to the very end.
 
Wanted Bob said:
They would have your memories, but would they have "you"? All your personality, behavior, beliefs and morals, what makes you unique as a human being, how would one ever contain that, if we ever could?

If this is derailing the thread I'll be quiet about this :)
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Think of your brain as a CPU and hard drive full of data. If you put it in a different case without any input devices, without a monitor, any of that, and gave it power. So yes, everything would be there. It might be difficult to imagine what it would be like to have no senses. No feeling, no hearing, no sight, smell; nothing. No nerves.

So to answer the question, yes you'd be conscious. You'd have the ability to think and go through your mind as per usual.

Anyway, if they were able to get that far, they could easily get some output from the brain, be it charts or graphs or chemical reactions taking place on a computer screen.

Now, we have spent out lives learning how to send signals to our mouths and make use of our vocal cords. Anyway, this ability would now be useless.

Now if they've made it this far. The hard part is over. It isn't hard for me to think "H" and "I", or even "Hi!", and they could get these thoughts into text, or even computer speech easily.

In fact, I've heard they now have technology and a device that can translate thoughts into interactions with computer games.

Epoch (input device for games):

http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/gadgets_and_gaming/article2926810.ece

Brain Carpet:

Researchers at the University of Utah have developed a new, more precise way of placing microelectrodes on the surface of the brain to enable patients to turn thoughts into action. Led by Bradley Greger, a professor of bioengineering, the "Brain Carpet" as it's called, represents a "modest advance" in techniques already in use. The Brain Carpet makes use of smaller microelectrodes, and also employs many more than are usually used. The method involves sawing off the skull of the patient, then placing 32 electrodes about 2mm apart on the surface of the brain. Though they've conducted tests on just a handful of patients -- all epileptics -- the technique, they believe could also be used to help people control their prosthetic limbs much more effectively. The electrodes allow detection of the electric signals in the brain which control arm and hand movements. In the tests, patients have successfully controlled a cursor on a computer screen following the operation, and they see applications for brain-machine interface devices in the future. There's no word on when the Brain Carpet will move from the research to reality phase, but the group's findings have just recently appeared in the journal Neurosurgical Focus.
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http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/31/brain-carpet-microelectrodes-could-help-translate-thoughts-into/


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...ions+in+games&cts=1260212522211&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
 
Fascinating Stuff. I knew about the Epoch (would be a cool peice of hardware, if I could afford it), but the Brain Carpet is new to me.
 
Higlac said:
Reason and science require faith that your unproven postulates are correct.
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No. Faith is a personal conviction that something is true, a will or a desire, even in the absence of evidence.

There is no such conviction in the scientific process. Sure, there is the assumption that the foundation you build on is actually sound, but that assumption is based on evidence in the first place. To call both faith and thereby implying they are somehow equals is disingenuous at best.

There are many things that science cannot explain, or it has no method to explain.
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But then again, neither can you. What's wrong with saying "I don't know"? Instead of saying "lets find out!" you just make shit up. That's not helpful!

Higlac said:
The existence of God would provide a reason for an otherwise meaningless life.
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On the contrary. What is this life to you but a trial set up by God to proof your worthiness to him? The 80 years you spend here are meaningless to the eternity you'll be spending in heaven. Not only that, but the life after this one is better than life here on Earth, infinitely better even to not make an infinite life a living hell. A true believer would want nothing more than to die. Logically, he would commit suicide if God didn't frown upon that.

On the other hand, for an atheist, this life is all he's got and he has all the more reason to make it meaningful to himself, however he sees fit. An atheist has reason to protect life, because once it's gone, it's gone. This is not the case for a theist, logically, a theist should want to go on a killing rampage in order to maximize everyone's happiness, because he's sending them to a better place, right? Of course, it's a shame God doesn't feel that way, but otherwise..!

It's death that makes life valuable. Any highschool course in economics should have taught you that scarcity is what gives something value. Why does a religious person even grief?

Now, I'm not saying you are that kind of theist. But you can't argue with the logic, so the only conclusion can be that you're not a true believer.
 
Higlac said:
Well, I came into this thread to throw my 2 cents worth in here. It then turned into a multi-quote war and I ended up defending a faith that I only marginally believe simply because this forum is full of anti-religious bigots who can't accept the fact that this argument is at a stalemate. I'll let you guys think you've won because "lol imaginary friends." To be quite honest, I'm more of an agnostic with pro-Catholic leanings. I haven't been to mass since I've moved out of my parent's house last year, but I will still defend Catholicism.
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That's a shame, because we were starting to get somewhere interesting. I hate debating people when they just give up, as is so common with theists.

Usually my debates with theists end in a few ways,
1 Pity.
"You're beyond hope. I will pray for you."

2 Passive-Aggressive.
"Clearly you know more than me about this. I am just a humble mystic who understands the universe in my own way."

3 Non-Sequitur
"Lol well god is beyond logic anyway so I win."

It's really a shame.
 
Well, my posts went from posting what I thought, to defending that stance because people have to nitpick, to an exhaustive attempt to prove the existence of God, which I cannot do. I went to four years of Catholic high school, I don't have the degree to be debating this any further than I have already. At the moment I am trying to defend the positive aspects of religion in society.
 
They're far outweighed by the negative aspects.
 
I cannot STAND people who state that this life is meaningless without something after death. The fact that this life could be our last, is what makes it so beautiful, the fact that any moment could be our last. Death is what makes us human.

The idea that ANYONE can have their lives dictated from rules stated in a book, on the basis of where they go after death, is a ****ing joke, not to mention, a massive contradiction. God gives us free-will, but you still have to follow these rules or I'll throw your ass into the pitsfires of Hell? Ha! ok.

I don't know what happens after death, its a step into probably the greatest mystery of all, whereby only pure speculation can cover it. Whether we float into some city of the afterlife, walk around as invisible spirits or merely just diminish into nothingness, I for one will worry about that when the time comes, for now I'll focus on this 'meaningless' life in the middle.

I'm agnostic by the way.
 
Thanks for all your replies, i just read them all and there was alot of interesting topics and discussions highlighted. :)

Sorry for reviving this thread but the reason I started it was because I saw the following videos on youtube, can you please tell me your thoughts on these videos (if you have enough time to watch them that is).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS-CaiQaBAw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwG7CSvBUHI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK1sS1VRb90&feature=related

My two cents on the matter, the scientist athiest with glasses is highly intelligent... and he and his colleague did a good job considering the crowd were a mojority of muslims/sikhs etc) The crowd were one sided and clapping to everything the 2 thiests when the thiests made no sense in their arguments. They talked total rubbish and were were fighting a losing battle.

the speaker was also bias towards the thiests giving them more time and always letting them have more time to respond and having the last word.

finally though, i feel the two athiests won, they did a marvelous job against so many religious people.

thoughts? cheers
 
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