Does infinite really exist?

dream431ca · Oct 8, 2004

Do you people believe infinite exists (in a mathematical term). When you divide 1/0 you get error on your calculator why?? Well if you divide 1/0.000000001 you get 1000000000. So if you divide 1/1*10exp.-56 you get 100exp.54. So you are getting close to infinite. But you will never reach it because we can't divide 1 into 0. It's kinda weird but interesting. If any of you find out how to do it I'll give you a cookie. :thumbs:

Wraith · Oct 8, 2004

infinite exists in my mind because if you go into outer space, as far as you can, you wont just hit a brick wall or something out there. but my dad used to say that maybe if you went out far enough you would come back to where you started, sorta like a big loop. the scientsts say that space is infinite, and then they say that its expanding. these facts contradict eachother if you think about it.

i want hl2.

dream431ca · Oct 8, 2004

Wraith said:
infinite exists in my mind because if you go into outer space, as far as you can, you wont just hit a brick wall or something out there. but my dad used to say that maybe if you went out far enough you would come back to where you started, sorta like a big loop. the scientsts say that space is infinite, and then they say that its expanding. these facts contradict eachother if you think about it.

i want hl2.

Well since that infinte means forever and space is infintie but space is still expanding in an infinite amount of space..it really doesn't contradict anything because no matter how far the universe expands in space..space is still infinite.

Wraith · Oct 8, 2004

dream431ca said:
Well since that infinte means forever and space is infintie but space is still expanding in an infinite amount of space..it really doesn't contradict anything because no matter how far the universe expands in space..space is still infinite.

for something to EXPAND that means it gets bigger, obviously to get bigger you would have to have physical limits. if something doesnt end at all, theres no way it could get bigger or smaller.

moppe · Oct 8, 2004

And, how do you know space is infinite?

Naudian · Oct 8, 2004

....the wait for hl2 is infinite...I.AM.SO.F*ING.FUNNY!!1....

:hmph:

Space sucks....Infinity sucks....not knowing sucks....but knowing would probably suck too....lots a things suckses...I dont believe in no infinity...dotdotdot

Wraith · Oct 8, 2004

moppe said:
And, how do you know space is infinite?

i never said it was, i said that scientists say it is, and they also say that ist expanding.

also space is just the absense of objects, obviously either space is infinite or you get to the bounds of it and there is infinite matter. there is only matter, or the absense of matter. theres no 3rd option so id ont see how it could ever end.

its too ****ing early in the morning for this, i just wanna play hl2

Ames · Oct 8, 2004

Ermmm...ummm....42!

/me runs away..

Tr0n · Oct 8, 2004

Man...not one of these "my minds gonna explode if I try to figure out what there saying" threads.... ;( Intresting stuff tho...

dream431ca · Oct 8, 2004

Wraith said:
for something to EXPAND that means it gets bigger, obviously to get bigger you would have to have physical limits. if something doesnt end at all, theres no way it could get bigger or smaller.

That is a very interesting answer...you are right about that. It doesn't get bigger or smaller because you are comparing it to infinite. But think about it in a mathematical situation..if you divide 1 into zero you should get infinite but math says that infinite does not exist. I think that is the interesting part.

ductonius · Oct 8, 2004

The universe is finite. There is a finite ammount of space in the universe, however, since it is expanding, the ammout of space in the universe is approaching infinite.

As for space looping back in on itself, think of it this way:

A 2D sheet has two sides, the top and bottom, and no thickness, it is 2d; there is no depth to it. A 3D sphere with a skin that is 2D also has two sides and no depth. A creature living in a 2D universe that was bent in a sphere shape could move in a single direction and end up in the same place it started.

The fact that the 2D universe is bent int a 3D shape does not make it a 3D universe, just as the fact that our universe is bent in terms of the 4th, 5th or higher dimentions does not mean it is anything but a 3D universe.

koncept · Oct 8, 2004

Wraith said:
infinite exists in my mind because if you go into outer space, as far as you can, you wont just hit a brick wall or something out there. but my dad used to say that maybe if you went out far enough you would come back to where you started, sorta like a big loop. the scientsts say that space is infinite, and then they say that its expanding. these facts contradict eachother if you think about it.

i want hl2.

hahahahahhahahahahah!!! i loved the last part, thats funny...... ahmm. ahmm.... good day.

p.s. infinite is self explanitory; it just is.

Neutrino · Oct 8, 2004

Wraith said:
infinite exists in my mind because if you go into outer space, as far as you can, you wont just hit a brick wall or something out there. but my dad used to say that maybe if you went out far enough you would come back to where you started, sorta like a big loop. the scientsts say that space is infinite, and then they say that its expanding. these facts contradict eachother if you think about it.

i want hl2.

The universe isn't infinite. What scientists say it is infinite? It is known to be expanding, thus there are finite limits to it. Of course we have absolutely no clue as to what lies beyond it's borders, if you can even think of it in those terms. I doubt we could comprehend it as it probably wouldn't even be a part of space and time.

dream431ca · Oct 8, 2004

ductonius said:
The universe is finite. There is a finite ammount of space in the universe, however, since it is expanding, the ammout of space in the universe is approaching infinite.

As for space looping back in on itself, think of it this way:

A 2D sheet has two sides, the top and bottom, and no thickness, it is 2d; there is no depth to it. A 3D sphere with a skin that is 2D also has two sides and no depth; there is also no depth to it. A creature living in a 2D universe that was bent in a sphere shape could move in a single direction and end up in the same place it started.

The fact that the 2D universe is bent int a 3D shape does not make it a 3D universe, just as the fact that our universe is bent in terms of the 4th, 5th or higher dimentions does not mean it is anything but a 3D universe.

Interesting reply...but there are something confusing things in it.

The first part of your reply states that there is a finite amount of space in the universe but in order to make the space infinte matter has to expand. To me if the universe had a finite amount of space matter would have to "hit" something or stop somewhere along the say...that is to say...matter has found the end of the universe but since matter should expand infinitly..then space should be infinite as well.

Another confusing thing in your reply is the 2D paper and sphere. I get the paper part but I am having a difficult time understanding what you mean by the sphere having a 3D component and a 2D component. The skin of the sphere may be 2D but a 2D component has no volume just area. So what I think your saying is that sphere has a 2D skin on top of it but below that is a volume of space. And yes if someone were to walk in one direction around the sphere they would eventually come to the same place as they started.

You can think of the 4th Dimension as a 3D shadow. We can't picture a 3D shadow in our minds because it's way to complex, but it doesn't mean it does not exists. Math has proven that a 3D shadow does exist but Math is hardly used for practical terms and more for use in the theoretical area (which where infinite is)

dream431ca · Oct 8, 2004

Another thing you have to think about is when you look at some galaxy very far away lets say 10 billion light years..bear in mind that you are seeing the galaxy 10 billion years in the past. So the farther an object gets the farther away in time it gets relative to the speed of light. So what you are seeing is not really a measurement of distance between the galaxy and you but a measurment of the dimension of time between you and the galaxy ( the galaxy is in another dimension of time).

Wraith · Oct 8, 2004

dream431ca said:
That is a very interesting answer...you are right about that. It doesn't get bigger or smaller because you are comparing it to infinite. But think about it in a mathematical situation..if you divide 1 into zero you should get infinite but math says that infinite does not exist. I think that is the interesting part.

lol, i dont think in "math" sorry buddy. i suck at math.

f|uke · Oct 8, 2004

Wraith said:
my dad used to say that maybe if you went out far enough you would come back to where you started, sorta like a big loop

Your dad played a few too many games of Asteroids

Letters · Oct 8, 2004

Idonotbelonghere said:
Space sucks....Infinity sucks....not knowing sucks....but knowing would probably suck too....lots a things suckses...I dont believe in no infinity...dotdotdot

This man reads minds!

More specifically, mine!

neozero · Oct 8, 2004

Ductonius does have something going for him.

Recent observations on harmonic magnetic waves in space have shown holes on opposite ends of the universe. The only way to really explain these wholes is to think of the universe as being in a torus ( or donut shape) in the fourth dimension.

Think of the 2d creature living on the outside of a donut, and how it could go in any direction without stopping. We actually can't say sphere b/c spheres distort, and don't define an infinite x/y plane.

Now imagine making a wave in that donut. As the wave went out ward and outward, it would eventually run into itself. If you were a two dimensional creature observing this wave, you'd see strange patterns of holes within it. Well we are noticing this, but in much larger three dimensional waves.

Now as for mathematics approach to infinity. If you were to take calculus, you would be introdocued to the concept of a limit, which is a very quirky thing. Using the 1/x example, you see that either side will approach a positive or negative infinity. (1/.00000000000000000~1 if there are an infinite amount of zeroes, or 1/.00000000000000000~-1)
the graph would like like two curves going away into space in opposite directions. There never is a point in which the opposite sides cross, and therefore 1/0 will never exist. We do treat the value it approaches to exist, and that is infinity.
This is what it would look like btw http://thesaurus.maths.org/dictionary/images/Hyperbola.png
Here is a better example, and it is also the definition of a derivative.

I'm assuming you know that a standard line is in the form y = mx+b
where m is the slope. m is given in the form rise over run.

In other words m is (the distance Y travels/ versus the difference Y travels) .

exmp. y = 2x+0 this is aline that starts at the origin (0), and will rise 2 spaces for every one space ex goes forward.
I.E. Y goes up 2/ everytime X goes forward 1 = 2/1 = 2

Well Y is a function of x. and there for we can say that y = f(x).

Is is no different than saying y = 2x+0, or any other function.

If the Y = x*x then F(2) = 4 because f(4) = 2*2.

be cause of this we can now say that y/x = f(x)/x

well lets say you want to find the slope between two points in a parabola.

all you do is take take two points and subtract their y and x values.

what you would get here is (y1-y2)/(x1-x2) well this is no different than saying f(x)-f(x+h)/h

it changes like this becaus "h" is the difference in the two x values of the two x points, and the top is just subbing that value in.

Whats intresting is that if you make h smaller and smaller ( essentially moving the two points closer and closer), you get a line that is closer and closer to the slope at the point of X. Of course logic will till tell you that a slope at a single point cannot be found, and the above expression would confirm that. If you have f(x)-f(x+h)/h and h becomes zero ( affectively making both points x). you get f(0)-f(0)/0, which equals 0/0. That is actually worse than 1/0

What we can do is make h a value really small. Infinitely small, but not zero. The point is that we can find ( or even observe) the value that the expression becomes as h gets closer and closer to infinity, and because of that we can find out the final value it reaches, when it hits infinity. Therefore we can find the slope of a graph at a specific time.

That is the first fundamental theorum of calculus.

The point is that mathematics treats infinity as a number that can never be reached, but can be computed. So for all intents and purposes, it does exist. We will just never be able to create or comprehend it. We can only use it.

Lil' Timmy · Oct 8, 2004

most cosmologists believe the universe is finite, but unbounded. as ductonius was illustrating, a sphere is an example of a finite, but unbounded, shape (a torus is another one).. well, unbounded in 2-space anyway.

infinity is an abstract concept. logically speaking, to say something approaches infinity, or to compare something to the infinite is absurd. infinity as a mathematical conjecture can be conceptualized, but when you speak of mathematical infinity, you're not really dealing with anything related to physical reality.

one philosophical outlook is that the universe can neither be infinite in space, nor in time (eternal). this is based on the observation that the universe is expanding and cooling. to say that the universe is eternal would imply that it has existed forever. aside from being logically completely untenable, this notion necessitates that the universe "now" would already have reached a final state. in the case of an expanding and cooling universe, it'd have reached a deep-freeze at ~3K or something. similarly, if the universe were infinite in space, all distances would be infinite, and we'd never see anything outside of our own solar system..

contending the universe is infinite in any measure is as absurd as contending that it does not exist. well.. assuming that you believe that the universe is expanding.

blahblahblah · Oct 8, 2004

my head hurts. :dork:

Dr. Freeman · Oct 8, 2004

hmm...did somebody forget to take their pills?

Rochet · Oct 8, 2004

well scientist now believe that there is more then one universe and that there are many of them. Think of a pool and you blow bubbles those bubble represent the universes, and between those bubbles are suppose to be absolute darkness, I really don't understand what they mean by absolute darkness, but its more then just being dark, I read it in a science magazine where it can kill anything or whatever, but if there theory is right, actually im gonna stop there before my head explodes. :sniper:

The Monkey · Oct 8, 2004

if you divide 1/0 you DO NOT get infinity, beacouse infinity*0 is not 1.

And btw, "Only two things are infiitive, universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." /Albert Einstein.

Lil' Timmy · Oct 8, 2004

The_Monkey said:
if you divide 1/0 you DO NOT get infinity, beacouse infinity*0 is not 1.

prove it.

The Monkey · Oct 8, 2004

Lil' Timmy said:
prove it.

This is your logic: 1/0=∞, 7/0=∞, 83893791773/0=∞
But is ∞*0= 1, 7 and 83893791773 at the same time? No.

Hope you understood me.

Neutrino · Oct 8, 2004

The_Monkey said:
This is your logic: 1/0=∞, 7/0=∞, 83893791773/0=∞
But is ∞*0= 1, 7 and 83893791773 at the same time? No.

Hope you understood me.

In common mathematical terms 1/0 is undefined. However, the limit of 1/x as x approaches 0 is indeed infinity.

Phisionary · Oct 8, 2004

infinity is only a concept to convey that something has no limit... in the real world all things have limits of some kind. space is finite. presuming that it started from the big bang, it expands outward at the speed of light. it is unbounded, because it can travel outward in this fasion forever. but infinity, as in math, is unattainable. to expand to infinity would require infinite time, which again is an unnatainable point.

fascinating stuff, hmm?

P.S. I'm aware my vision of universe expansion is a bit rough... I've heard it described that it is actually spacetime expanding in the moments after the big bang, not actual physical movement of the mass... But my understanding of this is sketchy at best...

The Monkey · Oct 8, 2004

Neutrino said:
In common mathematical terms 1/0 is undefined. However, the limit of 1/x as x approaches 0 is indeed infinity.

Correct. But remeber, infinity does not belong in Mathematics, rather in Philosophy.

Neutrino · Oct 8, 2004

The_Monkey said:
Correct. But remeber, infinity does not belong in Mathematics, rather in Philosophy.

No, it belongs in both.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity#Use_of_infinity_in_mathematics

Lil' Timmy · Oct 8, 2004

The_Monkey said:
'yada yada yada'..

Hope you understood me.

it was actually kinda a mathematics joke.. like show me a formal proof that 0*∞≠1.. but nvm :|

um, regardless, in this case i opt for the viewpoint that ∞ is not a number, and therefor does not need to conform to multiplicative rules

Kyorisu · Oct 8, 2004

I have a question? Space is infinite right> meaning that it's expanding and at the same time accelerating! Also that the distance's betwenn two point's relative to each with this expansion stay's the same? Now since space is infinite, does that also pertain to the amount of matter/substance in it? Why would the content of space dictate the total nature of space? Also, everyone agree's that the big bang theory fit's, as do I, but I think that if all matter was condenced in one form at some time, then surely the matter hasn't increased merely changed form or shape. Is'nt it plausible that if the universe is expanding, that all the transformation of matter in the universe haven't as of yet taken place. Just thinking out loud!

Sprafa · Oct 8, 2004

Infinite exists

IchI · Oct 8, 2004

Well, if at the max speed we could go at was lets say.... 100000mph and the universe just happened to be expanding at 2000000mph, surly it would be infinite to that person...

The Monkey · Oct 8, 2004

Space is not infinite, it's somewhere around 30-40 billion lightyears in diametre.

Phisionary · Oct 8, 2004

Kyo said:
I have a question? Space is infinite right> meaning that it's expanding and at the same time accelerating! Also that the distance's betwenn two point's relative to each with this expansion stay's the same? Now since space is infinite, does that also pertain to the amount of matter/substance in it? Why would the content of space dictate the total nature of space? Also, everyone agree's that the big bang theory fit's, as do I, but I think that if all matter was condenced in one form at some time, then surely the matter hasn't increased merely changed form or shape. Is'nt it plausible that if the universe is expanding, that all the transformation of matter in the universe haven't as of yet taken place. Just thinking out loud!

I'm sorry. I don't quite understand the question?

I see 'two points relative to this expansion stay the same'
Perhaps I'm misreading, but as I understand it, these two points will expand also.. Since it indeed spacetime itself expanding, not just the box that space-time is in, two points would change relative to one another...

picture a baloon. two dots on the baloon are galaxies. If you blow up the baloon more, the dots get farther apart. Try to picture the dots in 3d, as points inside the baloon, and it's a better model.
This may be a bad analogy, or I am explaining it wrong, bacuse the dots wouls get larger in that model, is they were drawn in pen or whatever.

one thing I woonder about... If space is infinite, or pseudo-infinite, when is the point at which expanding space begins to exhibit signs of virtual particles ala vacuum energy ala zer-point energy. since this would seemingly increase the mass in the universe, and as the mass increased, begin pulling things together faster...

I dunno. I also, just thinking aloud.

Immortal · Oct 8, 2004

Maybe its like in those super mario levels where you go the wrong way and you come on the other side.

Baal · Oct 8, 2004

I'm going to be the one who reaches the barrier of space! [/little kid talking to parent]

Seriously though...how is it possible it is infinite? Unless, it is expanding so fast you can never hit the barrier.

Link · Oct 8, 2004

Think it through. Say there is an edge to the universe. Whats on the other side of this edge? Whatever is on the other side is still in the "universe" as the universe is defined simply as everything and everywhere. Thus the universe cannot be finite.

As for looped space and doughnut theories, tell me, what outside the doughnut?

NeLi · Oct 8, 2004

dream431ca said:
Do you people believe infinite exists (in a mathematical term). When you divide 1/0 you get error on your calculator why?? Well if you divide 1/0.000000001 you get 1000000000. So if you divide 1/1*10exp.-56 you get 100exp.54. So you are getting close to infinite. But you will never reach it because we can't divide 1 into 0. It's kinda weird but interesting. If any of you find out how to do it I'll give you a cookie. :thumbs:

Jag pratr

Does infinite really exist?

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