Effects of piracy on game sales.

[Iced_Eagle]

When the various "industrys" stop trying to claim that 1 pirate copy = 1 lost sale profit then I might care about thier "figures".

Lets say that 92% did pirate the game. Did the creator lose 92% of thier profit? Of course not. Lets say that it wasn't possible to pirate the game. How many of those 92% would have bought it? Close to none. Now, how many of the people who did buy it pirated it first to try it? I'm betting more that would have bought it because they couldn't download it.

And on the subject, that whole "copyright theft is theft" thing? Bullshit. Theft is when you take something, thereby depriving that person of it. Copyright theft is duplicating something without permission, thereby denying the owner nothing, except the fee they would have charged if you bought it. Thats why its called copyright theft, and not just plain old theft.

Rant over

You're right that not every person that "tried it" before buying was going to buy it...

HOWEVER, you can't tell me that people who pirate and beat BioShock (SP only mind you) are going to go buy it just because they want to support the developer.

I promise you they don't, and it's bullshit. It's like eating a stolen candy bar, and then after bitch that it was only decent and you're glad you didn't pay for it. If you don't see the logic in that, I don't know what to say to you.

Personally, I think Steam is going to be a cure for a lot of these problems. It's non-annoying DRM that also prevents 0-day piracy or before (ie, some guy in a shipping room or ebgames isn't leaking the copy weeks before it's out).

I'm going to be honest, I use to pirate a few games here and there when I was low on cash a few years ago. But then I just realized that it was really dumb and it's not supporting developers (only hurting them) so I had a little revelation. If I don't have the money or not sure on the game, I won't play the game. It's that simple. No pirating for me. I either buy it, rent it, or play the demo. I will not pirate games anymore because it's making a dent on the PC games industry. At least, part of it anyways.

People seem to fail to understand or want to have the pain of not playing a game because you don't want to shell out the cash for it. Well, that's life and it's the economy. You pay for goods. If you can't pay, you don't get the goods. You shouldn't go through shady methods to get the good for free because you can.

 

[Kyorisu]

The sale price in Aus is outrageous and I refuse to buy games here on the basis I can import them for cheap from the US. I too also pirate something before deciding on whether or not to purchase it.

HOWEVER, you can't tell me that people who pirate and beat BioShock (SP only mind you) are going to go buy it just because they want to support the developer.

See I bought Bioshock and god was that a bad decision. Awful game.

 

[Krynn72]

See I bought Bioshock and god was that a bad decision. Aweful game.

Your spelling mistake makes your opinion invalid.

HOWEVER, you can't tell me that people who pirate and beat BioShock (SP only mind you) are going to go buy it just because they want to support the developer.

Now I did that very thing!

I also did it with Stalker, Company of Heroes, and Hitman: Blood Money. OMG ALL SP GAMES I MUST BE LYING! (except CoH, but I dont like RTS MP so i only bought it for SP)

The only games in recent memory that I pirated and didnt end up buying were Dark Messiah, and one of the newer Tomb Raiders.

Neither of which I beat, and both of which are no longer on my system.

 

[_Z_Ryuken]

See I bought Bioshock and god was that a bad decision. Aweful game.

I also regret buying Bioshock. I like the game, but I will never play through it more than once. Now I really think hard before shelling out.

 

[Link]

I promise you they don't, and it's bullshit. It's like eating a stolen candy bar, and then after bitch that it was only decent and you're glad you didn't pay for it. If you don't see the logic in that, I don't know what to say to you.

Its not the same. If you steal a candy bar, whoever you stole it from is down one candy bar. If you pirate a game, you don't cost the creator anything, unless you would have bought it had pirating been an option.

This is my problem with all these industry bodies. They keep claiming that it is, that its costing them billions, simply because they count each pirate copy as a lost sale, which simply isn't true.

 

[Kyorisu]

Your spelling mistake makes your opinion invalid.

I'd like to see you try and type on a laptop keyboard with big arse gloves on. Fixed anyway.

I also regret buying Bioshock. I like the game, but I will never play through it more than once. Now I really think hard before shelling out.

Ditto got through once and thought "Is that it?" The entire thing just felt lacking of any real depth game mechanics. To make matters worse I have the steam version which isn't re-sale friendly. The last two games I bought legit are Audiosurf and GUN-KATANA（銃刀）－Non Human Killer.

 

[Eejit]

The fact is, PC Gaming is doing decent not awesome. It still sells, but not anywhere close to console numbers because it's more difficult to pirate on a console (possible, but it's not like there are thousands upon thousands doing it unlike in the PC games space).

Another big factor: once you're finished playing your console games you can sell them back to the store.

Now you can do that to some extent with PC games but only if you use E-bay or something similar.

You can also easily buy second-hand games (although PC games have the equivalent of their price going down more a few months after release).

 

[Kadayi]

If I don't have the money or not sure on the game, I won't play the game. It's that simple. No pirating for me. I either buy it, rent it, or play the demo. I will not pirate games any more because it's making a dent on the PC games industry. At least, part of it any ways.

Same stance exactly. I generally assess the worth of a game based on the reviews/previews I read, and if I think it's a 'must have' (like GTA4 or TOB) I'll buy as and when I have the money. If it's something that I think I'd like to play, but am a little bit more ambivalent about (Crysis) I'll generally wait till it's dropped in price, or wait for a demo to see how I feel about it.

Its not the same. If you steal a candy bar, whoever you stole it from is down one candy bar. If you pirate a game, you don't cost the creator anything, unless you would have bought it had pirating been an option.

Piracy is as much about convenience and temptation as anything else (same as candy). If something is there that people want before it's commercially available they will probably take it 9 times out of 10 (because people are weak), sure some people might never buy it, but they are the exception rather than the rule, and it's absurd to argue otherwise. :dozey:

 

[Link]

You miss my point.

Would you be more annoyed if somone broke into your house and stole your homework, or if they broke in and just copied it?

I'm not trying to argue the rights and wrongs of piracy, I am arguing it is not the same as regular theft. Its absurd to argue otherwise.

 

[BaconIsGood4You]

When is the industry going to realize that piracy is never going to stop, even with super dooper DRM. Downloading games and not paying out the butt is the way the consumers what it. And ain't consumer king?

Why do companies producing digital media continue selling it is if it is physical goods. Its not! You have unlimited supply! By making your customers pay an arbitrary fee on the physical goods (60 bucks for a dvd) you are creating artificial limits on your consumer base.

Its like if radio started charging you to listen to a song. It simply doesn't make sense for the medium of business. It doesn't cost the radio station a penny more to have 1 million people hear something than 2 people once they've produced the material and sent it out on the waves, and thus they have adopted a business model to take advantage of this. ITS FREE! They maximize their audience, perfect for advertising.

Digital media should adopt similar creativity in revenue sources. Advertising, tiered perks, service, etc. all make WAY more sense than one flat fee.

The fact that piracy is so rampant points not to the villainy of game players but the inadequacies of the industry to meet its consumers demands due to the artificial institution of IP.

 

[Deleted member 56031]

What wasn?t fantastic was the percentage of those numbers who were playing on stolen copies of the game on stolen / cracked CD keys of pirated copies (and that was only people playing online).

i thought it wasn't possible to play online at all with a pirated game?

I also regret buying Bioshock. I like the game, but I will never play through it more than once. Now I really think hard before shelling out.

This.

 

[Laivasse]

Piracy is as much about convenience and temptation as anything else (same as candy). If something is there that people want before it's commercially available they will probably take it 9 times out of 10 (because people are weak), sure some people might never buy it, but they are the exception rather than the rule, and it's absurd to argue otherwise. :dozey:

Hardly absurd - it's exactly the viewpoint that this stat from Reflexive seems to reinforce, ie. stopping 1000 illegal pirate copies = gaining 1 sale. It may be only one, small game, but I see no reason why the stats would be so aberrantly skewed in this one case either. The online component may not be very well secured, encouraging piracy, but that should be offset by the fact that it is a relatively cheap game, encouraging legitimate sales.

When is the industry going to realize that piracy is never going to stop, even with super dooper DRM. Downloading games and not paying out the butt is the way the consumers what it. And ain't consumer king?

Why do companies producing digital media continue selling it is if it is physical goods. Its not! You have unlimited supply! By making your customers pay an arbitrary fee on the physical goods (60 bucks for a dvd) you are creating artificial limits on your consumer base.

Its like if radio started charging you to listen to a song. It simply doesn't make sense for the medium of business. It doesn't cost the radio station a penny more to have 1 million people hear something than 2 people once they've produced the material and sent it out on the waves, and thus they have adopted a business model to take advantage of this. ITS FREE! They maximize their audience, perfect for advertising.

Digital media should adopt similar creativity in revenue sources. Advertising, tiered perks, service, etc. all make WAY more sense than one flat fee.

The fact that piracy is so rampant points not to the villainy of game players but the inadequacies of the industry to meet its consumers demands due to the artificial institution of IP.

Couldn't have said it better.

 

[Solaris]

As a socialist I can quite happily pirate without feeling immoral at all.

 

[Javert]

I'm going to buy Mass Effect despite the piracy opportunity with it being a single-player game and all. I think that high quality games don't have much to worry about piracy. But if you're Kane and Lynch, I'm not exactly shedding a tear.

 

[ríomhaire]

I only pirate old NES, SNES and Mega Drive games. I wouldn't pirate readily-available PC games, my brother does though, and I still play them

 

[Bad^Hat]

You miss my point.

Would you be more annoyed if somone broke into your house and stole your homework, or if they broke in and just copied it?

You're not looking at the bigger picture.

Let's roll with your example, but instead of homework, let's make it a study guide or something (same ball park). Say you wrote it up to earn a bit of extra cash for your own studies. Yeah, you'd be pissed if someone took one, and maybe less so if someone just "copied" it, but neither of those are the real issue.

Imagine, now, that someone in the school starts handing out photocopies of your exact work to anyone who asks. Would they, then, be stealing?

No, not everyone who takes a copy would have bought it from you otherwise, but they're still benefitting from your work without compensating you. So, while perhaps it can't be thought of as "1 stolen copy = 1 lost sale", they're still contributing to your losses as a whole by denying you a potential sale. So, rather than dividing everyone who takes one by their intentions, couldn't it be thought of that they are all responsible for your losses in some small way?

From the creator's point of view, to seperate those who've taken your work into people who would or would not have bought it had the means not existed to take it, is utterly fruitless. At the end of the day, people are still taking advantage of something they have put time, effort and money into, and all they have to go on are the figures. They're not bloody psychic.

 

[phantomdesign]

Or look at it at the point of view of you invest millions of dollars into a project, thousands of hours, sweat, tears, frustrations, and god knows what else. Then someone decides it's not worth paying for since it's "not physical." The question remains, is anything non-physical worth creating?

Aren't you stealing from their original investment?

 

[Top Secret]

Link is a moron.

If you're going to pirate, pirate.

But don't waste our time attempting to convince us that it is not immoral.

 

[Iced_Eagle]

And ain't consumer king?

No shit! People NEVER want to pay money for anything unless they have to. They pay their bills or else they lose their service.

Hell, you're right consumer's are making a choice by not paying for games. You can just stop paying for games, pirate them, and that is definitely an economic choice. The issue comes that the company no longer gets revenue and they can't make games, so in the end, who can you pirate from?

Link: You're right it's not always going to be one sale per one prevented download. However, you can't deny that if there was no piracy, more people would end up buying the game because it's their only option. If they want to play, they need to pay.

Shit, look at Crysis. It sold HORRIBLY during its first month (~90k units first month). I wonder how many people pirated it though? Granted it bounced back, but the point still stands that the pirates definitely made an impact on the first month sales with all of the really hardcore players who just wanted to "test it out" get it Day 0.

I'll make the case again with BioShock. Since it's SP only, people will pirate it, play through the campaign and then delete it. They are done with that good, so why would they pay for it again? The thing is that they don't.

The point is, pirating games is wrong. Nobody can say for sure what effects it has on the industry, but saying it has no effect is completely ignorant.

 

[Asknoone]

As a socialist I can quite happily pirate without feeling immoral at all.

That's not what I'd call rational?

 

[Stigmata]

As a socialist I can quite happily pirate without feeling immoral at all.

So "as a socialist" you actively condone and perform acts of thievery. I... don't think you know what socialism is.

I'll admit I've pirated many games. I've also bought many games that I pirated which I never would have purchased otherwise. For instance, I never would have purchased SimCity 4 or Mafia if it weren't for bittorrent. Of course this doesn't make me a better person, but at least in my case the end result was a positive cash flow from me to the games industry.

 

[Kadayi]

I'll make the case again with BioShock. Since it's SP only, people will pirate it, play through the campaign and then delete it. They are done with that good, so why would they pay for it again? The thing is that they don't.

Well said, there is little or no incentive to buy a non MP game after you've played it through once already. If someone pirates a film or a TV show, then there's a fair chance they might buy a DVD or Boxed set down the road, for better quality, extra content, commentaries etc, but with an SP game, the experience is total, so there is no potential beyond what is initially released.

The point is, pirating games is wrong. Nobody can say for sure what effects it has on the industry, but saying it has no effect is completely ignorant.

Agreed.

 

[knut]

I'll pirate music gladly because, when it comes down to personal beliefs, I don't believe any one should ask for a price when it comes to creativity, and if the music is plugging in your guitar and pouring out a **** load of... well, emotion and creativity then I think it's quite greedy that someone would say ''gimme money'' for doing something they enjoy, and then in saying that it often seems they don't enjoy it and are doing it just for money. But I digress, it's my personal opinion. But when it comes to games, which go through tons of mind-numbing, complicated processes like coding and programming that someone has to do then yeah, they deserve my money because it's not such a simple progress as sitting down at an instrument and playing.

Eugh, it's hard for me to explain.

 

[Iced_Eagle]

I'll pirate music gladly because, when it comes down to personal beliefs, I don't believe any one should ask for a price when it comes to creativity, and if the music is plugging in your guitar and pouring out a **** load of... well, emotion and creativity then I think it's quite greedy that someone would say ''gimme money'' for doing something they enjoy, and then in saying that it often seems they don't enjoy it and are doing it just for money. But I digress, it's my personal opinion. But when it comes to games, which go through tons of mind-numbing, complicated processes like coding and programming that someone has to do then yeah, they deserve my money because it's not such a simple progress as sitting down at an instrument and playing.

Eugh, it's hard for me to explain.

I know what you're saying, but playing an instrument, let alone creating an enjoyable song is hard work. You're not just paying to listen to that music, but also supporting them so the artist can go out on tour and all of that stuff.

Creating a CD may not be as long to create or take as much manpower as a AAA game, but that still doesn't give you the right to pirate it... Especially when they lower the cost of a CD, and you can even buy songs you want for only $1.

I am a ZunePass subscriber, and if you have a Zune I highly recommend it. All I do is pay $15 per month and have access to a shit-ton of music anytime I want. It's awesome, and legal and still supports the artists.

 

[VirusType2]

I'm certain that a large percentage of 'pirated' games are games that the person bought, but lost they stupid 'cd key'.

About 15 of my games that I bought and own the disc, I lost the key to play it. hell, sometimes I just download a key for it because it's faster than looking through the hellhole that is my room to find the stupid game box to find the hidden key somewhere in the manual or inside the case.

I just stopped buying games altogether. The only game that I don't regret buying in the past like 10 years was Half-Life2, GTR2, and Call of Duty 4, and (don't laugh) Oblivion.

Then there are some that I regret buying because I don't play them anymore, but were still good games, but anyway...

I don't pirate games. I don't have time to play them or download them anyway.

I would think that 92% of the time they aren't even worth downloading for free in my opinion.

When I was a kid, we spent like $150 on an Atari 2600 and like $55 for ET the Extra Terrestrial. That was my first game. This should have clued me in that video games are a ****ing rip-off, but I loved them so much that I spent the majority of my allowance and income on them throughout my life. I must have bought a 1000 games, and rented 1000 more.


Now I buy like 1 or 2 a year, and sometimes I regret even doing that, yet I still can't resist them for some reason, even though I usually never play them for more than a few hours before they collect dust.



I would think music piracy is the worst because the mp3 files can be compressed to where an album can be downloaded in minutes. If you really like the album, you could pay for it, and then you are sure to get the best possible sound. Or you could just go into the music store and listening to the album before you buy it, instead of downloading it. However, you can't do this with video games, with the exception of the very few that are playable at a Kiosk.

 

[Kadayi]

I'm certain that a large percentage of 'pirated' games are games that the person bought, but lost they stupid 'cd key'.

So a large percentage of the people who downloaded UT3 before it was retail released had lost their CD Keys? Fascinating, where do you get your facts from? :dozey:

 

[99.vikram]

So a large percentage of the people who downloaded UT3 before it was retail released had lost their CD Keys? Fascinating, where do you get your facts from? :dozey:

He only said a large percantage, not majority. In time this will be true for UT3 as well.

I make it a point to 'obtain' games protected by Starforce or other draconian means, just to spite the developers.

 

[Stigmata]

So a large percentage of the people who downloaded UT3 before it was retail released had lost their CD Keys? Fascinating, where do you get your facts from? :dozey:

Because "large" = "majority", and "games" = "UT3". Good work.

 

[Iced_Eagle]

VirusType2: I totally see the (in all honesty, perfectly valid) reason for downloading. However you do enter some grey area.

You legally own the game, you could provide proof of cd-key, etc. That's not what people get fully upset about. They get pissed because while downloading you are also uploading it to people who chances have it do NOT own the game, thus they can say you are partly contributing to the spread of piracy because you are uploading. That's the way BT works and not too many ways of getting around that.

 

[Krynn72]

That's not what I'd call rational?

That is a question?

They get pissed because while downloading you are also uploading it to people who chances have it do NOT own the game, thus they can say you are partly contributing to the spread of piracy because you are uploading. That's the way BT works and not too many ways of getting around that.

Only if you use torrents. Most of the pirating community use other means, while the newbs use torrents.

 

[Musk]

I might pirate a game but if I really like it I will go out and buy it if I have the cash.

 

[Iced_Eagle]

Only if you use torrents. Most of the pirating community use other means, while the newbs use torrents.

That's true.

Either way, that's still a grey area on if that is legal / illegal since there's no way to really tell if they bought the game.

 

[Musk]

There are other ways apart from using Torrents?

 

[Jintor]

I might pirate a game but if I really like it I will go out and buy it if I have the cash.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Infoceptor]

If you're going to pirate, pirate.

But don't waste our time attempting to convince us that it is not immoral.

. .

 

[Bad^Hat]

. .

Good point.

Seriously, did you quote that from somewhere?

Edit - Unless you were just meaning to agree with him. For some reason that looked like more of a disdainful silence, like "..." as in "...I won't even dignify that with a response" or something, but uhh...

Yeah, you can go ahead and ignore this.

 

[Krynn72]

/ignored

There are other ways apart from using Torrents?

Yes. Torrents are shit.

And no, i wont tell you about it.

 

[Kadayi]

Because "large" = "majority", and "games" = "UT3". Good work.

I'm glad you like it. You can get up off your knees now and go make me some pie. :dozey:

I make it a point to 'obtain' games protected by Starforce or other draconian means, just to spite the developers.

So do you steal food from supermarkets as well, because they dare to have security guards on the door? Based on your statement I guess it's fair to assume you've liberated all of Valves games then because they've dared to sell their software through Steam. What downright audacity by these developers that they might be trying to make a living off selling something they've poured their heart and soul into for a number of years. :dozey:

I might pirate a game but if I really like it I will go out and buy it if I have the cash.

So you pirate it at release then 6 months later pick it up at the bargain bin, when it's probably a 6th of it's original value and the developers get an absolute pittance from the publisher? :dozey:

Contrary to popular opinion the games industry is not full of win when it comes to making vast wads of cash for everyone involved at the drop of a hat. Sure a few people make it rich (like John Carmack), but the vast majority, even those well known in the industry aren't living like Hollywood film stars financially. Their fame far outstrips their fortune in most cases.

 

[Pesmerga]

So do you steal food from supermarkets as well, because they dare to have security guards on the door?

More like, I'd steal from a supermarket if a cop frisked me on the way in, questioned my family, and then punched me in the gut without having yet committed a crime.

 

[Eejit]

Only if you use torrents. Most of the pirating community use other means, while the newbs use torrents.

Torrents are great if you've got access to good private tracker sites, which my flatmate does.