Email from Gabe. Re: Pay 2 Play
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MrD
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Question: If, as gabe claims, the majority of the population will opt for the Single Player edition then why would it cost less than normal? Surely they will lose out on a big heap of cash. It is more likely to cost more for the Multiplayer edition...
ie. Single Player will be the standard price.
and subsribers would have to get HL3 when/if it comes out as part of the subscription else there would be no point in subscribing!
What worries me is that "pay to play" becomes so commonplace that I no longer have the option to buy things one off.
Imagine having to subscribe to endless big coroporations and their mothers just to have the right to listen to music, watch your DVDs, play games.
so help me i'll kill myself if the world ends up like that!
ie. Single Player will be the standard price.
and subsribers would have to get HL3 when/if it comes out as part of the subscription else there would be no point in subscribing!
What worries me is that "pay to play" becomes so commonplace that I no longer have the option to buy things one off.
Imagine having to subscribe to endless big coroporations and their mothers just to have the right to listen to music, watch your DVDs, play games.
so help me i'll kill myself if the world ends up like that!
T
TseTse
Guest
i think most folks here are missing the real difference that 99/100 gamers will quickly notice, especially the online gamers.
no more free mods. the big "mods" are being organized as commercial products... add-ons as a shared engine platform only.
as a modder, and as a gamer, this all tells me that hl2 isnt warez friendly and isnt going to offer free online gaming for millions and millions of people... like hl did.
it's a brilliant e-business structure, which could build steam (har har) and realyl change the way game publishing happens.
but as related to online gaming... raw online gaming statistics.
there's no sign of online serendipity like the original had.
you dont GET anything for online gaming by merely buying hl2, as it looks to me right now.
no more free mods. the big "mods" are being organized as commercial products... add-ons as a shared engine platform only.
as a modder, and as a gamer, this all tells me that hl2 isnt warez friendly and isnt going to offer free online gaming for millions and millions of people... like hl did.
it's a brilliant e-business structure, which could build steam (har har) and realyl change the way game publishing happens.
but as related to online gaming... raw online gaming statistics.
there's no sign of online serendipity like the original had.
you dont GET anything for online gaming by merely buying hl2, as it looks to me right now.
Mr Neutron
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In response to headcrap on the previous page (#29):
I believe you, like many people, are drawing many unlikely assumptions about the subscription scheme by making a false analogy: the 'valve subscription' service is really NOT much like the pay-for-play subscriptions of the MM games we have now. Though I've never subscribed to or purchased a MM game myself, I believe MM makers DO abuse their customers in that, while monthly charges are justifyable given the operating costs, also charging normal prices for the games themselves (50 dollar game with only one 10$ monthy fee prepaid for example) totally is not: it's as if the makers/publishers are hedging their bets, EXPECTING the customer to not actually like and use the product for which he must pay in advance. Additionally, charging for expansions just fragments those games' user-experience AND prays on addicts.
But the 'valve subscription' plan, like WalmartHL2, is intended mainly I believe for people wanting to sample the goods or not sure exactly what they want, and Valve expects >99% of people like us to understand the situation and just go straight for the standard deal. Not that Valve is praying on the ignorance of casual customers either; in fact, I think this is a very good correction to the current way consumers are expected to pony up full price before really learning what they're buying; in this case, us fanboys know (or assume we know) what we're getting.
Secondly, I trust Valve to remain honest and set pricing of content-upgrades, add-on MODs, and stand-alone MODs in proportion to the work required in their making. Using the base HL2 product as a baseline, we can assume this means we're not going to pay 4$ just for a new character model or single map (as headcrab suggested on the previous page). I admit though, in this particular regard, Valve has a past blemish (was Opposing Forces really worth full-price?; having picked it up this year for 5 bucks I feel glad I waited--but maybe I'm forgetting the standards of 4-5 years ago when producing that standard content was more difficult and costly). I suspect (and hope) Valve learned a lesson.
So unlike some of the subscription schemes in existence and in the works in other game genres:
1) This is not a scheme to extract more money without providing more value.
2) Whatever added value it brings will not be closed off to non-subscribers: Valve--if it didn't figure it out before (and I think they did despite everyone here jumping to conclusions)--knows people don't want to have to hedge their bets about getting the better deal by haggling over whether to go on the installment plan or paying flat out: we don't want to have to finance our game purchases (or just think that hard about them in general).
Now I do think, to ease people's purchase anxiety, Valve should introduce a credit scheme for their subscribers whereby one's monthly 10$ fee earns you credit towards ownership. This would not necessarily be 10$ to 10$ but maybe 10$ to 5$. For example:
Joe subscribes for 4 months but then cancels, spending $40.
Joe has earned $20 dollars credit for Steam purchases.
THEN
a) He decides to buy standard HL2, spending: 30$ (50$ game cost - 20$ credit)
OR
b) he decides to buy stand-alone DOD2 priced at $20 (hypothetically
)
In case 'a)', Joe may have spent $20 more for HL2 than he would have in the first place, but he got the benefit of the full valve panoply for three months and got to try out the whole product, as well as the one's he realized he could do without.
In 'b)', he also spent $20 bucks more than what he would have otherwise, but he probably decided he was sick of the SP and didn't really care for the other variants out there.
(Of course, your canceled account record should be kept for a time, at least a year, perhaps, so that one's credit doesn't evaporate instantly.)
Also notice that, as a scheme for replacing demos, yes you would be paying for what was formerly free, but you'd get the whole game: if you like it and decide to buy, you've only spent 5$ more (one month should be adequate to try out a game); if you hate it or realize that it has no replay value, you didn't waste 50$, only 10$ (which is much more proportional to the value you get from almost all SP games).
-------------------------
Thus ends the lesson.
I believe you, like many people, are drawing many unlikely assumptions about the subscription scheme by making a false analogy: the 'valve subscription' service is really NOT much like the pay-for-play subscriptions of the MM games we have now. Though I've never subscribed to or purchased a MM game myself, I believe MM makers DO abuse their customers in that, while monthly charges are justifyable given the operating costs, also charging normal prices for the games themselves (50 dollar game with only one 10$ monthy fee prepaid for example) totally is not: it's as if the makers/publishers are hedging their bets, EXPECTING the customer to not actually like and use the product for which he must pay in advance. Additionally, charging for expansions just fragments those games' user-experience AND prays on addicts.
But the 'valve subscription' plan, like WalmartHL2, is intended mainly I believe for people wanting to sample the goods or not sure exactly what they want, and Valve expects >99% of people like us to understand the situation and just go straight for the standard deal. Not that Valve is praying on the ignorance of casual customers either; in fact, I think this is a very good correction to the current way consumers are expected to pony up full price before really learning what they're buying; in this case, us fanboys know (or assume we know) what we're getting.
Secondly, I trust Valve to remain honest and set pricing of content-upgrades, add-on MODs, and stand-alone MODs in proportion to the work required in their making. Using the base HL2 product as a baseline, we can assume this means we're not going to pay 4$ just for a new character model or single map (as headcrab suggested on the previous page). I admit though, in this particular regard, Valve has a past blemish (was Opposing Forces really worth full-price?; having picked it up this year for 5 bucks I feel glad I waited--but maybe I'm forgetting the standards of 4-5 years ago when producing that standard content was more difficult and costly). I suspect (and hope) Valve learned a lesson.
So unlike some of the subscription schemes in existence and in the works in other game genres:
1) This is not a scheme to extract more money without providing more value.
2) Whatever added value it brings will not be closed off to non-subscribers: Valve--if it didn't figure it out before (and I think they did despite everyone here jumping to conclusions)--knows people don't want to have to hedge their bets about getting the better deal by haggling over whether to go on the installment plan or paying flat out: we don't want to have to finance our game purchases (or just think that hard about them in general).
Now I do think, to ease people's purchase anxiety, Valve should introduce a credit scheme for their subscribers whereby one's monthly 10$ fee earns you credit towards ownership. This would not necessarily be 10$ to 10$ but maybe 10$ to 5$. For example:
Joe subscribes for 4 months but then cancels, spending $40.
Joe has earned $20 dollars credit for Steam purchases.
THEN
a) He decides to buy standard HL2, spending: 30$ (50$ game cost - 20$ credit)
OR
b) he decides to buy stand-alone DOD2 priced at $20 (hypothetically
)In case 'a)', Joe may have spent $20 more for HL2 than he would have in the first place, but he got the benefit of the full valve panoply for three months and got to try out the whole product, as well as the one's he realized he could do without.
In 'b)', he also spent $20 bucks more than what he would have otherwise, but he probably decided he was sick of the SP and didn't really care for the other variants out there.
(Of course, your canceled account record should be kept for a time, at least a year, perhaps, so that one's credit doesn't evaporate instantly.)
Also notice that, as a scheme for replacing demos, yes you would be paying for what was formerly free, but you'd get the whole game: if you like it and decide to buy, you've only spent 5$ more (one month should be adequate to try out a game); if you hate it or realize that it has no replay value, you didn't waste 50$, only 10$ (which is much more proportional to the value you get from almost all SP games).
-------------------------
Thus ends the lesson.
Mr Neutron
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In reply to TseTse above:
I don't see the same downside concerning MODs:
1) amateur, always free MODs aren't going away
2) amateur MODs which valve takes in-house (CS, DOD)
a) have not yet been announced as costing anything
b) if they do cost something, this cost should be judged based on the resources Valve puts into it; now, if Valve were to take the next popular amateur MOD, make insignificant changes, and then release a new version, charging a fee for what was previously free, yes that would be bad (of course, even if they actually wanted to do this, it would be difficult if the MP servers can't be compelled to upgrade).
I don't see the same downside concerning MODs:
1) amateur, always free MODs aren't going away
2) amateur MODs which valve takes in-house (CS, DOD)
a) have not yet been announced as costing anything
b) if they do cost something, this cost should be judged based on the resources Valve puts into it; now, if Valve were to take the next popular amateur MOD, make insignificant changes, and then release a new version, charging a fee for what was previously free, yes that would be bad (of course, even if they actually wanted to do this, it would be difficult if the MP servers can't be compelled to upgrade).
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Critical_Bill
Guest
I agree with you W7RE, I think most people will opt for the Buy in-shop. What worries me is will these 'updates' include major patches? Are we going to have to subscribe in order to be on the same version of HL2 as the Steam users?
More worryingly, suppose a HL2 mod becomes really popular and valve buy it, then add it to their 'content' list meaning only Steam subscribers are allowed to play the mod? No mod team is going to turn down valve for the sake of keeping their mod open to everyone. They'd be crazy to.
Nasty business this...
MoJo|Night
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"I agree with you W7RE, I think most people will opt for the Buy in-shop. What worries me is will these 'updates' include major patches? Are we going to have to subscribe in order to be on the same version of HL2 as the Steam users?"
If you buy in shop you'll get all the updates of the steam users, not the other games like the subscribers though.
HL2 will come with steam built into the backend of it, a lot of people are none too happy about it but it'll be there. If you've paid for the game from a retailer you'll have steam and be capable of getting hl2 updated to the latest version at all times.
If you buy in shop you'll get all the updates of the steam users, not the other games like the subscribers though.
HL2 will come with steam built into the backend of it, a lot of people are none too happy about it but it'll be there. If you've paid for the game from a retailer you'll have steam and be capable of getting hl2 updated to the latest version at all times.
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Logic
Guest
Subscription will not be needed to obtain patches. Nor will it be needed to obtain mods. The only mods that will be unavailable to everyone are the ones that cost money (if the mod developer decides this), in which case it will need to be paid for.
Even if mods are bought by Valve, and are added to their 'content' list, they, like other valve products, will still be able to be purchased by non-subscribers. By my understanding, Valve will never restrict the playing of any game or mod to subscribers only. The way I see it, anyone will be able to obtain any and all of Valve's 'content', but how you choose to pay for non-free content is up to you.
Valve would not kill their own community by restricting games for playing by subscribers only.
Valve is attempting to create a system under which mod developers can sell their mods if they so choose. This may even prevent mods from being "bought" by valve, since mod developers will be able to maintain creative control, and still make money from their hard work. It's a better option for them.
Even if mods are bought by Valve, and are added to their 'content' list, they, like other valve products, will still be able to be purchased by non-subscribers. By my understanding, Valve will never restrict the playing of any game or mod to subscribers only. The way I see it, anyone will be able to obtain any and all of Valve's 'content', but how you choose to pay for non-free content is up to you.
Valve would not kill their own community by restricting games for playing by subscribers only.
dis
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I don't completely understand everyone's beef with Steam. At first I was totally against the idea. I prefer to download updates myself, so I know what's being done on my computer. That's what I don't like about Steam, but it doesn't bother me that much anymore. I have found that other things about Steam, like the speed of the server refresh, the friend connection stuff, the ability to chat with friends while in a game, make Steam a pretty good idea overall. But I'm certainly not comfortable enough with it or my internet connection to purchase HL2 over Steam. I'll be going to the store to pick up my SP+MP (collector's edition if possible) on Sept. 30th.
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Logic
Guest
I was originally very hesitant about steam. Being a 56k user, it was never really appealing to me, but I always thought that even if I had a faster connection, I wouldn't like relying on it. Now that some more information about Valve's marketing and pricing has been released, I'm starting to see the bigger picture (especially after replying a lot in this thread, it's made me think about it) and I actually think Steam, and the rest of Valve's plans and pricing systems, are actually quite well thought out, offering options that appeal to everyone. Rather than creating a generic product, they are catering for a range of different types of users. People will find options specifically designed for people in their situation, that suit their financial status and gaming desires. Steam, and the whole subscription thing, does seem like a very plausable glimpse at the future of the gaming industry. Valve are being very innovative.
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Logic
Guest
That would be nothing short of insane.Originally posted by Kamakiri
Imagine the thread with multiplayer details in it. Official.
Edit: Imagine a thread stating officially that there will be no multiplayer! Like hitting a bee-hive with a stick :cheese:
K
Koldfire
Guest
Code:
select * from ******s
where company_name = 'Valve';
.....
Query returned 7 rows.I seriously hope Valve goes out of buissness if they decide to go with those pricing options.
:dork:
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Logic
Guest
It's not a negative thing at all. You can still buy your normal version for a normal price and not have to worry about all the other options.
Valve going out of business....
There's more chance that they'll become the 'Microsoft' of the gaming industry than there is of them going out of business. They're making bold moves, and the more I think about it, the more successful I think they are going to be. These are smart guys, they know what they're doing.
Feath
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I seriously hope you fall under a bus and die for comments like that.
Not a very nice thing to say is it? Neither was your comment.
The pricing options will be as follows:
Half Life Single Player Only - Cheaper than the standard game price
Half Life SP/MP - Same as standard price of a new game
Half Life Collector's - More Expensive than standard game price.
Are you angry that there's a cheaper version that only has single player.
Steam prices:
Half Life 2 SP/MP - Standard Game Price, one off payment
Subscribion - Access to all of Valve's products for $10 a month
So you either buy Half Life 2 straight away or you subscribe to Valve's products for $10 a month.
I fail to see what you are so angry about.
K
Koldfire
Guest
I read different on shacknews. they said it would only be the collectors edition that would have MP + mods. =.
I shouldnt have said that. I hope Valve stays in buissness forevar. ;(
I shouldnt have said that. I hope Valve stays in buissness forevar. ;(
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Logic
Guest
lol if I read (or, heaven forbid, type) another pricing plan description I'll go nuts :x
Edit: I just read what Shacknews said about the pricing, everything seemed right to me, I think you may have misinterpreted it.
Edit: ......... I just read another pricing plan description!!
* Logic goes nuts
Edit: I just read what Shacknews said about the pricing, everything seemed right to me, I think you may have misinterpreted it.
Edit: ......... I just read another pricing plan description!!
* Logic goes nuts
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TheRock
Guest
ok, so....i goto EB at my mall when HL2 comes out. I tell them i want to buy HL2 with multiplayer and mod support so i can play online and what not, because i dont want to pay the subscription. BUT. How will i get the new content and mods and what not without steam? how would i player multiplayer without steam, how will i get mods without steam? thats my only concern
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Logic
Guest
Steam comes with HL2. You don't need to subscribe to use steam, you only need to buy HL2. Subscription lets you use steam to have access to all valve products, but as an owner of the standard retain HL2, you still use steam to get all your patches and free mods without a subscription.
Edit: Hmm I really do need some headache tablets....
Edit2: I should be getting paid for this.. lol.. Feath too, and the other question-answerer people. It's like full time PR work.
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TheRock
Guest
heh that was easy, thanks
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Logic
Guest
no problem
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Logic
Guest
It's a handy procrastination tool too. I've got a hell of a lot of work to do, all needing to be done tomorrow, and it's 1:36am. I can't for the life of me make any progress on it. So I come here and post lol
G
Goofus Maximus
Guest
Here's my question, if I subscribe, then use steam to get a game while I'm subscribed, then sometime later, I UNsubscribe, will all the things I got go "POOF!"?
Is steam a content delivery service that LEAVES content on your computer, or is it a C.D.S. that redelivers your content again and again, as you use it? Plus, what do you do when steam is (as most of my friends report it is) basically non-functional on their systems? Will you send them content on CD-ROM by mail, or will they be paying a useless subscription till their problem is fixed?
Is steam a content delivery service that LEAVES content on your computer, or is it a C.D.S. that redelivers your content again and again, as you use it? Plus, what do you do when steam is (as most of my friends report it is) basically non-functional on their systems? Will you send them content on CD-ROM by mail, or will they be paying a useless subscription till their problem is fixed?
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Logic
Guest
I'm guessing that once you're no longer subscribed, you will lose all your subscription games, and the right to play them. This seems pretty obvious, otherwise people would sign up for a month, download everything, then quit.
Steam does cache content on your computer, but I'd imagine the encryption is pretty tight to stop software piraters from copying everything out of the steam cache and keeping it after you unsubscribe.
The subscription is, as far as I can tell, pretty useless for people who's connections aren't fast enough to benefit from steam. It defeats the purpose. Gabe has very vaguely mentioned an interest in exploring possibilities for online steam customers who want their boxes and cds though, so you never know.
Steam does cache content on your computer, but I'd imagine the encryption is pretty tight to stop software piraters from copying everything out of the steam cache and keeping it after you unsubscribe.
The subscription is, as far as I can tell, pretty useless for people who's connections aren't fast enough to benefit from steam. It defeats the purpose. Gabe has very vaguely mentioned an interest in exploring possibilities for online steam customers who want their boxes and cds though, so you never know.
dscowboy
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Yes, you will no longer have access to it. You can't subscribe for a month and get every Valve game for 10 bucks.
But it doesn't 'contsantly redownload' games, they're stored in your Steam Cache, encrypted, so you can only get at them if you're subscribed.
dscowboy
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Feath, Logic, thanks again for keeping this thread filled with good answers. You guys get up a lot earlier than me, and everyone seems to post while I'm asleep
Questions I see that keep popping up are "If I don't subscribe, I won't get all the cool mods?!?" and "I have to pay for mods now?!?".
Firstly, as we understand, there will be NOTHING sold via subscription that will not also be available for outright purchase. Subscription is not a requirement to play ANYTHING. It is a pricing option only.
I think we should also lay out some definitions. We have two main categories:
1) "Valve games based on Source"
This would include TF2, any expansion packs (like Opposing Force was), and any other games that Valve develops for the foreseeable future.
2) "Community-developed mods"
This would include the kinds of mods that are being discussed in the Editing forum, like Cold War, NeoTokyo, etc.
The difference between the categories is that one is professionally developed, and one is community developed. Games that fall into category 1 will also be available for purchase in stores. This category will almost certainly include CS2 and DOD2, since those teams work for Valve now.
Teams that develop mods in category 2 will have the option to sell their games over Steam, but mod teams are not going to do this unless they have something that people will actually pay for. Suggesting that the mod community will 'die' because of this is rediculous.
So in essence, we have the same division we've always had: Games professionally developed and sold in stores verses community developed games/mod that can be downloaded. Nothing has changed, there are just more options now. You have the option to download a game instead of buying it in-store, mod authors have the option or charging for a mod, consumers have the option to pay a small subscription to 'rent' games, and you have the option to pay less and forego multiplayer altogether.
More options is good for everyone.
Questions I see that keep popping up are "If I don't subscribe, I won't get all the cool mods?!?" and "I have to pay for mods now?!?".
Firstly, as we understand, there will be NOTHING sold via subscription that will not also be available for outright purchase. Subscription is not a requirement to play ANYTHING. It is a pricing option only.
I think we should also lay out some definitions. We have two main categories:
1) "Valve games based on Source"
This would include TF2, any expansion packs (like Opposing Force was), and any other games that Valve develops for the foreseeable future.
2) "Community-developed mods"
This would include the kinds of mods that are being discussed in the Editing forum, like Cold War, NeoTokyo, etc.
The difference between the categories is that one is professionally developed, and one is community developed. Games that fall into category 1 will also be available for purchase in stores. This category will almost certainly include CS2 and DOD2, since those teams work for Valve now.
Teams that develop mods in category 2 will have the option to sell their games over Steam, but mod teams are not going to do this unless they have something that people will actually pay for. Suggesting that the mod community will 'die' because of this is rediculous.
So in essence, we have the same division we've always had: Games professionally developed and sold in stores verses community developed games/mod that can be downloaded. Nothing has changed, there are just more options now. You have the option to download a game instead of buying it in-store, mod authors have the option or charging for a mod, consumers have the option to pay a small subscription to 'rent' games, and you have the option to pay less and forego multiplayer altogether.
More options is good for everyone.
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Logic
Guest
I'll say. It's 2:30 am here. :cheese: And thanks for the thanks
Well said, too. Things should be getting clearer and clearer for everyone now. Hopefully we've all managed to eliminate the confusion.
G
Goofus Maximus
Guest
Thank you for your replies. I was kind of thinking that POOF was the operative word. I believe I'll stick to the "get a box off the shelf and pay for it" method of content delivery! I mean, how long can it take before steam gets hacked, and we all end up with a "GORDONBLASTER" worm on our computers.
Indeed, how long will it take before pirates find a way to board the STEAMship Valve?
Indeed, how long will it take before pirates find a way to board the STEAMship Valve?
I
iggy
Guest
just something to note: steam still has to work on some level. steam is how you get patches, its how you find online games. its how you find lan games. its integrated into CS 1.6, and will probably be integrated into hl2 in a similar way.
regardless of whether you pay for content or subscription over steam, you'll still be using it. you can still have problems finding online games if you buy the retail box if steam isn't working on that day.
this is kinda separate from the issue, but still something to think about.
regardless of whether you pay for content or subscription over steam, you'll still be using it. you can still have problems finding online games if you buy the retail box if steam isn't working on that day.
this is kinda separate from the issue, but still something to think about.
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Logic
Guest
You have a point, but it's like any technology. All software is at some point pirated. All types of servers and online services are disrupted at some point. Something will always go wrong, but that's just how it is. Problems will come and go, but it's the same with anything, from MMORPGs to your ISP, to your phone company, to the electricity you're running your computer with.
Silver.Fox
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lol, why do you think Valve doesn't respond as often as they do, they have people like us to drive it into the heads of the confused till they understand ...
on a side note ... hot damn this post grew .... rofl
I think my last responce was like ... 10 pages ago or something
lol
:cheers:
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