Email from Gabe. Re: Pay 2 Play

[OCybrManO]

Originally posted by mrCYDONIA
And I have nothing against steam, but if I buy a new drive or upgrade my PC, I really don’t want to download 3-5 gigs of games when I could install from a CD in one tenth the time. Steam is not that great an idea in action. But that is just my opinion.
However, I spend a lot of money on games and PC equipment each year, I will not ever, under any circumstances, pay a monthly subscription for gaming, including Gamespy.
In fact Counter-Strike is a very unique gem, what other 5 year old games do you play?
Not many I am sure.

If you have the same account on two computers you could just copy the files in the SteamCache folder to the new HD and it should work.

About the old games:
I still have Quake II installed just for QPong, and I still play a MUD every once in a while.

 

[dscowboy]

Originally posted by mrCYDONIA
The biggest issue I have, is that Half-Life only had 2 expansion packs in it’s entire 6 years. Lets do the math… $50 is the average price for a new game and $20 for an expansion pack. So, at $10 a month for 12 months = $120.

Ok, I think I've explained this three times in the last two pages of this thread, but I'll try again. You do not need to stay subscribed for the rest of your life. Forget the word 'subscription' and think 'renting'. You are renting all of Valve's games for a certain period of time, at 10 dollars a month. If a year from now there are 3 valve games/mods/expansion packs i want to play, then I can rent them for three months, pay 30 bucks, and save quite a bit of money.

This is not like an MMOG people. Nobody played 'Opposing Force' for more than a couple months, why would you subscribe to it for a whole year?

 

[dis]

Originally posted by [NPR]Noah Adams
You're right to the extent that charging for things that were once free is not a good way to engender the good will of the community, however Ira's economics model still stands. If a mod is commercialized after its completion, there's some justification for free online distribution. If it goes from 20% completion to 100% completion (using Ira's BF42 analogy, if Desert Combat were purchased today and completed by DICE), it's unreasonable to expect that it would be free to anyone.

It's ultimately the discretion of the developers, isn't it? If Valve approaches an independent mod team and wants to commoditize their product with the understanding that it will be sold for profit, the mod developers can always say "no". But seriously, who would?

Well, I think you're right with those two examples, but would you say that CS and DoD were "complete" before the were commercialized by Valve? I wouldn't say there were complete, but they sure were far in development. As far as Desert Combat goes, I haven't played it so I don't know how far in development it is to make a call on whether I feel it should be free or not for download if what you say were to actually happen. I guess if it's something we've gotten for free for a long time, they won't then make us pay for it, but on other hand, if it's something that has been free for a relatively short period and Valve snatches it up, then they might make us all pay for it.

Edit: But I can't see Valve snatching something up early in it's life - that would kind of defeat half the point of the mod community, but whatever. I guess we'll see what happens in the future.

 

[NPR Ira Glass]

dis: what I'm getting at is that with this new method of distributing content and controlling access to online servers (I'm still not positive.. is Steam going to be the gateway for online play?) Valve would be able to do things like having "Subscriber Only Content" in a way that would benefit them (no up-front costs, incentive for people to subscribe), the map makers (money for their work), and possibly the community as a whole (more people getting paid to do gaming work, more games/maps/mods for us gamers).

MrC, I haven't thought of a good reason to subscribe either, frankly. I'm just brainstorming as to ways that Valve could make it worthwhile for us. So far, I'm very unconvinced. Good point about the problems with online distribution Re: upgrading or drive failures, btw.

 

[dis]

Yeah, I understand that, but I hope that's not what they're going to do with it. If they have subscriber content only, I will be irritated because I don't think that it'll be a reliable method of getting content. Everyone knows the internet doesn't always work as well as it should or at all, sometimes. And if that's the only way to get some content, but you just don't feel comfortable acquiring the game that way, then it looks like you'll be screwed out of some content. I don't like that. lol

 

[mrCYDONIA]

do you really think valve is going to let you "Rent" HL2 for 2 months.
play it, beat it and then cancel only paying $20 the whole time??
your dreaming. there will be a minimum charge or time frame for subscriptions.

 

[NPR Ira Glass]

Originally posted by dscowboy
Ok, I think I've explained this three times in the last two pages of this thread, but I'll try again. You do not need to stay subscribed for the rest of your life. Forget the word 'subscription' and think 'renting'. You are renting all of Valve's games for a certain period of time, at 10 dollars a month. If a year from now there are 3 valve games/mods/expansion packs i want to play, then I can rent them for three months, pay 30 bucks, and save quite a bit of money.

This is not like an MMOG people. Nobody played 'Opposing Force' for more than a couple months, why would you subscribe to it for a whole year?

So I guess the smart thing to do would be to buy the SP/MP SKU HL2 at a retailer so you can play HL2 and all free mods online, then subscribe to Steam only when new content is released, and only until you tire of that content. This would give Valve incentive to release a new expansion every few months or so, so people keep their subscriptions running. I don't know if they can keep up that tempo. *shrugs*

MrC, the minimum time will probably be just enough to match the cost of buying the single player only version. That way people can play it, beat it, then get hooked on the multiplayer experience. I would like to seem some sort of "rent to own" plan in effect... say if you subscribe for a full year, you get the equivalent of buying the SP/MP SKU off the shelf, only you don't have paper manuals.

 

[OCybrManO]

You get a general Steam subscription and whether you play one game for a year or 6 different games you pay the same amount... and at the end you don't have any of the games to show for it.
If you just play HL2 and free mods with your subscription and nothing else you will be getting screwed.

Subscription is like renting an apartment... you pour a bunch of money in it and in the end all you are left with is memories. If you stay at the apartment frequently or sporadically you pay the same rent.
The traditional method is like buying a house... if you stay for a long time you end up spending less money and you can sell it off to someone else when you want to move. The amount of wear you put on your house affects how much you will have to pay down the road.

If you intend to play HL2 and free mods for a long time (like me) then you should definately go with the traditional choice because it will probably be cheaper in the long run... and you could sell your crap (CDs + steam account) to a friend to get some of your money back if you quit playing after a short amount of time.

If you are the kind of gamer that buys a game... plays for a couple of months... then moves on to the next "best game ever" (like so many are hyped to be) you should use the subscription method.

 

[dscowboy]

I think most of us discussing this are agreeing that commercialization can be a good thing (especially for the mod authors), but the problem is, what do you do with the people who've been playing it for free? You don't want to 'abandon' them by suddenly charging them for the game. You don't want to split the community by coming out with a commercial version that's not compatible with the free version. So how do you go about commercializing a mod that was previously free?

What worked for CS and DoD in the past may not work in the future. The people who bought CS and DoD either:

1) Had 56k, or weren't sophisticated enough to download the mod from the internet, or just wanted to just install it from CD
2) Didn't have Half-Life
3) Lost their Half-Life CD/KeyCode

But if everyone who has HL2 is on Steam, downloading a mod via Steam is going to be easier than getting it from the store and installing it from CD. And with Steam, you can't lose your HL2 license. So that's going to cut down on 1 and 3. And I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of PC gamers that enjoy online gaming are going to purchase HL2, so that cuts down on number 2 also. I'm not sure that offering a commerical version of a free HL2 mod would generate enough income to compensate both Valve and Vivendi for their development and publishing investments.

The only idea I've come up with is that you make the commerical version separate from the free version, but 'backwards compatible' with it. So people with the free version and people with the commercial version can play on the same servers, in the same games, but the free mods don't have the professional models/textures/maps that are in the commerical mod.

Though the technical logistics of making two different versions of the same mod compatible might be insurmountable.

Thoughts?

 

[mrCYDONIA]

I own a copy of CS retail and I have the Mod on another computer.
there is no diffrence in models or textures.
Retail version is not better.
If people lose their CD key that is their problem.
Target and Walmart dont replace my Toothpaste if i lose that on the way home.
also, i havnt tried it, but I doubt you can simply copy your steam cache, there are other .dll's and files that use the OS which would make it not run correctly if you simply copy and pasted it in.

 

[Goombatommy]

Man, this thread isnt dead yet....

 

[NPR Ira Glass]

I had thought that the only way to do it would be to have a commercial version that was different from the free "beta" version. The problem with the "separate but equal" scenario you described is that it would restrict the post-purchase changes to being nothing but cosmetic changes. No new weapons, performance tweaks, etc. I would also think that that would be a BIG window of opportunity for the hackers to squeeze cheats in.

Distribution by steam would get rid of any publishing expenses, btw. Valve would still be paying the Dev team, though.

 

[dscowboy]

Cydonia, I don't think you read my WHOLE post.

Originally posted by NPR Ira Glass
The problem with the "separate but equal" scenario you described is that it would restrict the post-purchase changes to being nothing but cosmetic changes. No new weapons, performance tweaks, etc.

Right, any new gameplay would have to go into both mods, and the only advantage of buying the commerical one would be aesthetics. But this avoids the problem of splitting the community.

If you split the two versions completely, then people who buy the commerical mod will have no servers to play on unless Valve provides them. And like anything else, people will gravitate toward the biggest community, which will always be the free mod. So anyone who buys the commerical version will be left without a community.

I don't think either option is very good. With my option, the only thing motivating people to buy the commerical version is improved graphics and better maps (which would be enough for some people I'm sure, but not for most of them). With your option, you split the community and the people who buy the commerical version have nobody to play with.

Distribution by steam would get rid of any publishing expenses, btw. Valve would still be paying the Dev team, though.

True, but I was assuming that it would be published to store shelves as well, like CS. There's something to be said for the publicity of having a box on a shelf.

 

[Goofus Maximus]

I got Half-Life right at the beginning. I played it through, then took it off my drive. Then CS came along, and I put it back ON my drive! No extra money.

With steam, if I take it off my drive and end my subsription, I'll have to RESUBSCRIBE if I want to put it back ON my drive. Rental is exactly the right word for this. I would rather OWN my games.

I don't really like the idea of steam, as you can probably tell! I dread the steam servers being hacked, with illicit content such as a worm or virus being sent to the entire steam user base. I imagine steam accounts being hacked into for the use of multiple people. I see computer glitches such as the one that had our credit card billed every month for AT&T@home, of which AT&T had no record, for SIX MONTHS! I see billing snafus, content delivery/steam operation snafus. What I don't see, is certainty that enough new content of worth will be flowing through the steampipe to make a continuous subscription a good choice. Nor can I imagine playing by subscription as long as I've played CS; it would be too expensive.

I will continue my non-steam buy-a-box-and-own-it routine, and avoid any Ever-Crack monthly payment schemes as long as I'm able...

 

[Logic]

We could argue day and night about the benefits, or lack thereof (depending which side you take) of steam and the subscription, but the truth is, Valve haven't yet released information about their future product line-up, so there's no way to tell whether it will be good value or not.

Now obviously, Valve would not go to the trouble of creating a subscription service if there was no good reason to subscribe, so I think it's safe to say that there will be incentives for subscription.

There absolutely no reason to argue against the subscription service when we clearly don't know what will be available on it. Wait until Valve release some official information before getting worked up about it. After all, nobody's making you subscribe, so even if you still don't like the idea after more information has been released, you're under no obligation to take part. Just buy the game normally, and be happy.

And if you don't like the idea of "renting" your games, by all means don't. That's the great thing about Valve's new pricing schemes - options. We can still buy, and use, games just like we're used to. Valve has an option to suit everyone.

As for mods, I haven't been reading all the recent long posts (it's starting to get tiresome) but I think we all need to have a bit more faith in Valve that they will have taken the time to think about the consequences of the new plans, and have planned according to what's best for the community. Yes, they are raising a few eyebrows with their new pricing schemes, but I very much doubt we will be affected negatively. My prediction is that in a few months, we'll all be happily playing our standard versions of HL2, downloading some of the cool mods that are starting to appear. Just like the good old days, right?

 

[MaDMaXX]

Good post Logic, people are saying it won't suit them, from what little info we have about it, then they explain why it won't suit them, then they say its shit because it doesn't suit them, whats the deal!?!?!!

 

[Guardian]

Value of something can only be known after use of it.

Attempting to assess the value of something without knowing all the details ensures that the value will be incorrect.

 

[TJA]

What about slow player with few time?

Originally posted by dscowboy
Ok, I think I've explained this three times in the last two pages of this thread, but I'll try again. You do not need to stay subscribed for the rest of your life. Forget the word 'subscription' and think 'renting'. You are renting all of Valve's games for a certain period of time, at 10 dollars a month. If a year from now there are 3 valve games/mods/expansion packs i want to play, then I can rent them for three months, pay 30 bucks, and save quite a bit of money.

This is not like an MMOG people. Nobody played 'Opposing Force' for more than a couple months, why would you subscribe to it for a whole year?

Sorry to bug you, but i played Half-Life for nearly 3 years till i finished it - i have few time and am also a real slow player, replaying many levels for days or weeks to finish it perfectly or something like that.
Renting a game for $10 a month for only 3 years would mean 3 * 12 * 10 = $320!!!!
I dont´t think this is acceptable!

I still am playing Decent2 and Descent3 - both not finished, Tomb Raider 4 and Tomb Raider 5 as well as some roleplaying games.
I still will need years to complete all of them!

Don´t do the way of "renting", please

 

[Logic]

If you don't think subscribing will be good value to you, just buy the game normaly, in a shop.

Also, renting HL2 isn't the main point of the subscriiption - subscribing gives you free access to any and all of Valve's games and content, as they are released. Depending on what games and content Valve are planning on releasing, this may end up being very good value.

But again, if you don't like the idea of "renting" your games, don't. You have the option to buy the game just like you bought the original Half-Life.

 

[kemo]

I'm a big HL fan and really want the cool bonus content that the special edition brings forward, but at the same time, I'd like to have the flexibility of the steam system in getting new content. I hope I don't have to spend $70 on the special retail edition and on top of that spend $10 a month just for content.

 

[Feath]

Originally posted by kemo
I'm a big HL fan and really want the cool bonus content that the special edition brings forward, but at the same time, I'd like to have the flexibility of the steam system in getting new content. I hope I don't have to spend $70 on the special retail edition and on top of that spend $10 a month just for content.

Why won't this thread die?

Gabe didn't say you get "Cool Content" with the Special Edition. He said "Cool bonus stuff". This means physical stuff like Mouse mats or a "Making of Half Life 2" DVD or something else you can actually hold. This is why they aren't selling it over Steam, you can't download physical stuff electronically.

You don't pay the $10 a month if you buy Half Life 2 in the store. The content you get over the Steam Subscription would be stuff you can just buy in the store, like expansion packs or any other Valve games.

 

[Logic]

Originally posted by Feath
Why won't this thread die?

Oh well... at least people are getting some reassurance about the things that are worrying them.... even if it's one person at a time.... over and over and over again....

Perhaps this is a place worried people can post when they want some information that will put there troubled minds to rest

 

[MrD]

Originally posted by Logic
.... even if it's one person at a time.... over and over and over again....

ROFLOL!!!

hehe i was thinking that! lol

 

[kemo]

By "content" I meant the contents of the box, ie. mousepad, etc.

I want the mousepad or whatever it may be, but at the same time I want the easy access for everything via steam.

Looks like I'm screwed and will have to get both..

 

[Feath]

Originally posted by kemo
By "content" I meant the contents of the box, ie. mousepad, etc.

I want the mousepad or whatever it may be, but at the same time I want the easy access for everything via steam.

Looks like I'm screwed and will have to get both..

When you buy the game, you will get easy access over Steam. As long as you play online once Steam will act as if you just bought the game over Steam. You could even go round a friend's house to play it and download it there.

At least, that's what Gabe has implied.

 

[ConSeannery]

?? ahhhh!

hey guys. i'm totally mind boggled after reading all these opinions of statements and personal opinions and "fact this" "no thats not a fact" etc etc. all i really want to know is:

I want to go to a store, and buy half-life 2 with single player and multi player available, just like i could with half-life1, and i want to be able to play counter-strike 2 when it comes out.

will this be possible? do i HAVE to download a multiplayer version from steam? do i HAVE to download any mod version for mods online? I want single player with multiplayer, and counterstrike! can i go buy this in stores, then download the counterstrike mod when it comes out>!?

yeesh i am confused! anyone have a straight answer?

 

[Feath]

Re: ?? ahhhh!

Originally posted by ConSeannery
hey guys. i'm totally mind boggled after reading all these opinions of statements and personal opinions and "fact this" "no thats not a fact" etc etc. all i really want to know is:

I want to go to a store, and buy half-life 2 with single player and multi player available, just like i could with half-life1, and i want to be able to play counter-strike 2 when it comes out.

will this be possible? do i HAVE to download a multiplayer version from steam? do i HAVE to download any mod version for mods online? I want single player with multiplayer, and counterstrike! can i go buy this in stores, then download the counterstrike mod when it comes out>!?

yeesh i am confused! anyone have a straight answer?

I find it difficult to believe you read the entire thread.

The answer is YES. You can go to the shop and buy a copy of Half-Life 2 that plays both Single Player and Multiplayer.

If Counter-Strike 2 is a mod then yes, you can download it.

 

[dscowboy]

Re: ?? ahhhh!

Originally posted by ConSeannery
hey guys. i'm totally mind boggled after reading all these opinions of statements and personal opinions and "fact this" "no thats not a fact" etc etc. all i really want to know is:

I want to go to a store, and buy half-life 2 with single player and multi player available, just like i could with half-life1, and i want to be able to play counter-strike 2 when it comes out.

will this be possible? do i HAVE to download a multiplayer version from steam? do i HAVE to download any mod version for mods online? I want single player with multiplayer, and counterstrike! can i go buy this in stores, then download the counterstrike mod when it comes out>!?

yeesh i am confused! anyone have a straight answer?

We've been giving straight answers through this whole thread, it's just that people kept popping in with all kinds of false speculation.

Yes, if you buy the full HL2 version in stores, you will have what you want. You won't be forced to download anything, or pay a subscription fee, or anything else rediculous like that.

Realize however, that when CS2 comes out, it will probably be a professional, for-profit, commercial product. Valve develops CS now, not a bunch of guys living in their parents' basements anymore. They will expect to recoup their development investment somehow.

EDIT: Feath beat me to it, doh.

 

[ConSeannery]

awesome thanks guys. i didnt really wanna read through 547 replies but i did read around 4 pages...then people just kept saying no no lalala. lol ah well thx for the straight answers! *sits and waits for hl2*

 

[timmah!!!]

well, i'm over half-life2


i'm not paying $10 a month

and i'm not buying a game and buying a right to play it and then buying the right to update it...

so **** 'em

that sucks, cuz it looked like a good game

 

[Stryyder]

OMG this thread rears it's ugly head on the front page yet again.

Just what we need.

 

[maleficarus™]

Interesting scheme they are deciding on. When I go buy a retail game I will go out and plop down my $50 bucks. I will only do this usually after playing the free downloadable demo to see if I like it. Looking back at the original HL I remember NOT liking TFC and only occasionally liking CS. So for me being able to buy what I really want seems like a real good idea. If I can save a few bucks and still play HL2 with the online availability, then I'm all for it!

To touch a nerve on the pay to play thing that most massively multiplayer use:

At first I thought it was a lame idea and only a way for these guys to make even more money. But the way I see it if you are really into a game then paying $9.95 a month to keep playing that game seems to make sense to me. Think about it really, you spend more to park your car usually. If HL2 was only pay to play say $9.95 per month I would still try it for a few months regardless. But my only concern with that is most pay=to-play is credit card only. If any game company is going to use that idea they have to make it so people can just walk in and pay %50 bucks for a game card to add to there accounts.

The true irony to this whole debate is most people here have no problems with spending hundreds of dollars on there PC every 6 months but then turn around and scream at the idea of spending $9.95 per month to play a game LOL :flame:

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

Originally posted by timmah!!!
well, i'm over half-life2


i'm not paying $10 a month

and i'm not buying a game and buying a right to play it and then buying the right to update it...

so **** 'em

that sucks, cuz it looked like a good game

I'm glad you're not buying HL2...then I won't bump into you uin MP. thank god!

btw. just an advice...read the post before you start whining. read what Gabe said in the e-mail and you will see that everything you just assumed is wrong.:dozey:

 

[theGreenBunny]

Argh, this thread is a dinosaur, that 'timmah' guy is probably an archeologist. He's obviously good at digging things up.

 

[PriNcE oF SpAcE]

Originally posted by theGreenBunny
Argh, this thread is a dinosaur, that 'timmah' guy is probably an archeologist. He's obviously good at digging things up.

except he digged up a chicken wing thinking it was a T-rex.:dozey:

 

[Cheetarah654]

thanks for the email, hopefully not_a_fan will read it and realize hes a complete moron

 

[Aknot]

OK so at $120 I would get roughly 2 and a half games or more using the "subscriptions service". What happens if I do not like the mod/DL from that time frame? Or the first year Im so enthralled with HL2MP I decide not to DL the mod that year, and it gets "old" and decide NEVER to DL it do I have a credit? Does not sound like it would save you money. It locks you in and "makes" you DL them to keep it "worth your money".

 

[ferd]

Gabe really owns, i mean he just took away all my doubts in a sec

 

[MrMethane]

Message from Thread to timmah!!!: Go trolling somewhere else and let me rest in peace! *deep ominous voice*

 

[marksmanHL2 :)]

LOL

This thread is crazi. Thanks gabe. I for one am likely to get the subscription thing. Because I actualy read your post. Unlike some of the people here. Aww well. Thanks again.:cheers: