Erik Johnson's Words of Wisdom

[Pi Mu Rho]

Read this. All of it.

"Fundamentally, I think the people who play MODs are an efficient group for measuring quality. It is impossible, or unlikely at best, for a MOD team to fail based on exposure alone. While distribution for MODs is still something that could be improved upon, word of mouth within the community is still a very powerful method for getting people to play a given game.

I think the real mistakes are happening on the individual MOD teams themselves. They are becoming far too hesitant and conservative in their approach to how they design, develop, and release their games. If you go back and look at the first versions of Counter-Strike, Team Fortress, or Day of Defeat, you'll see rough games that focus around a single game play idea. The first version of Team Fortress for Quake only had 5 classes, and wasn't even a Team game. In the first version of Counter-Strike, it was virtually impossible to tell the CTs and the Ts apart. The goal of all MOD teams should be to go out and learn from the community as to whether or not your game idea is a good one or not, and plan on releasing as often as possible. Right now it appears that too many MOD teams believe they have to build the next huge hit with their first release, which is a plan that is pretty likely to fail.

The thing that the successful MODs all had in common was that they all had a single idea that they were going to use to drive their game design forward, and it was a good one. No amount of execution, art quality, PR, fancy websites, or time is going to overcome a bad idea for a game. Second, and just as important, they shipped as fast as they could and then continued to ship and ship and ship. Successful MODs measure their success after each release and use what they learned to form the ideas for the next one. If an idea fails, they remove it from the next version, if an idea succeeds, they continue to iterate around that specific element.

Sometimes it feels like the MOD community is becoming more and more like the "professional" game community, where products are being approached as something that should take a long time, ship once, and then everyone moves on to the next big project. MOD teams that are approaching building games from this perspective are throwing all of the advantages they have out the window, and are just competing with every other game developer in the world.

The one MOD that seems to have taken a more iterative approach has been Garry's MOD, who I think has shipped close to 9 versions of his MOD in less than a year. Garry's MOD proves not only that people will find out about a MOD no matter how unusual a product it is, but also that the quality of a MOD can become extremely high as a result of frequent releases. "

 

[The Mullinator]

I really hope mod teams start following this advice. It seems to be needed.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

No amount of execution, art quality, PR, fancy websites, or time is going to overcome a bad idea for a game.

I <3 this line.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Beerdude26]

Read it in the News & Announcements forum. Great interview, indeed. Lovely part about mods, indeed.

 

[Insano]

It's all so true.

 

[$kelet0r]

although on the other hand it ignores the fact that we are actually getting extremely polished mods coming out now that are highly enjoyable and playable
dystopia, hidden, hl2dm pro, minerva, ctf come to mind
the detritus is left flailing by the wayside benefiting the gamer
i disagree with mr. johnson therefore - i think the community benefits more from quality over quantity of output

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

He's not advocating quantity over quality - he's saying that the community benefits more from actual releases with strong gameplay than they do from flashy websites and pages full of renders.

 

[$kelet0r]

I think the real mistakes are happening on the individual MOD teams themselves. They are becoming far too hesitant and conservative in their approach to how they design, develop, and release their games. If you go back and look at the first versions of Counter-Strike, Team Fortress, or Day of Defeat, you'll see rough games that focus around a single game play idea. The first version of Team Fortress for Quake only had 5 classes, and wasn't even a Team game. In the first version of Counter-Strike, it was virtually impossible to tell the CTs and the Ts apart. The goal of all MOD teams should be to go out and learn from the community as to whether or not your game idea is a good one or not, and plan on releasing as often as possible. Right now it appears that too many MOD teams believe they have to build the next huge hit with their first release, which is a plan that is pretty likely to fail.

this is the part i disagree with
conservatism is a problem with people generally not mods alone
and he is nostalgic for the days of weekly updates of rough products with constant reiterations of small improvements
i argue that quality is the holy grail of game design not workrate
to say that mod making is suffering because modmakers are more inclined to spend more time perfecting their product is absolute rubbish

 

[Crispy]

I feel there's a huge generalisation in what has been said here, they are words of advice that work on almost all levels but Total Conversion Single Player Mods been left out of the equation.

If you release a SP Mod, whose strongest asset is its story, in a crappy form you'll be making a grave mistake. If you manage to keep the release held back until -say- the first episode is done (Minerva is a striking example) you're going to sustain interest and you won't be disappointing fans. However, Miverva was not a TC Mod.

Visuals in SP are much more important than MP. The visuals in MP are like a lure. They give a game an ambience which becomes less and less important as the same scenarios are played and replayed over and over again. But the Single Player game is generally played once through. Certain players will replay SP games but they will, in general, refrain from doing so again and again because they value the magic of the SP game. The visuals and sound create a strong sense of immersion. They must be original, they must be in a finished state, or the magic is lost.

Garry's Mod didn't have to worry about this because it was essentially using HL2 assets, as was Minerva (for the most part).

So while I agree with what he says as far as most Mods are concerned, it shouldn't be taken as gospel because of the oversights it makes. I also dislike the way TC SP Mods have been completely overlooked, as if they have no importance any more. A Single Player Mod can be one of the most wholesome gaming experiences possible, more so if they are TCs (take the recently reincarnated They Hunger). I think the act of overlooking SP TCs with this comment only serves to further distance them from the public gaming eye. They are a dying breed, and need encouragement from those in the Games Industry, not unmention. What's sadder is that this oversight probably comes from the fact that, however popular SP games are, Multiplayer games sell a lot more titles. SP games are being downplayed by the Valve because they make more money from multiplayer.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

SP drives sales, not MP.

 

[$kelet0r]

bf2, ut2004, q4, wow,....?
more and more it's the exact opposite
the best games focus on the multiplayer experience

 

[Teddy]

conservatism is a problem with people generally not mods alone and he is nostalgic for the days of weekly updates of rough products with constant reiterations of small improvements

There was a lot less code, art and map resources needed back in the olden days, it's a lot harder to get a game into a playable (let alone releaseable) state with these next gen engines.

 

[Beerdude26]

bf2, ut2004, q4, wow,....?
more and more it's the exact opposite
the best games focus on the multiplayer experience

Single Player experience :
DooM 1 & 2 (Even only had SP)
Command & Conquer
Age Of Empires
SWAT 3/4

We can do this all day long

 

[$kelet0r]

There was a lot less code, art and map resources needed back in the olden days, it's a lot harder to get a game into a playable (let alone releaseable) state with these next gen engines.

i agree completely with you which is why i quoted dystopia as an excellent example of the more quality focused approach
what johnson seems to be encouraging is mods based on killbox rooms and then torturously improve from there with constant updates which i think is ridiculous

Single Player experience :
DooM 1 & 2 (Even only had SP)
Command & Conquer
Age Of Empires
SWAT 3/4

We can do this all day long

that's the past, my point is that all modern games are judged on their multiplayer much more so to the point where multiplayer is what sustains sp games like hl2 and not its sp content

 

[Crispy]

SP drives sales, not MP.

Shall we take a few examples:

Quake >>> Quake II >>> Quake III

Unreal >>> Unreal Tournament

Warcraft >>> Warcraft III >>> World of Warcraft

C&C >>> C&C Renegade

I'm noticing a trend in MP over SP titles. This is because they sustain interest longer, they can be updated (fixed) after release with minimal consequence and they bring in a bigger audience through their global presence. Someone who plays offline on their own will not generate as much interest for a game as someone who plays online and is more likely to have an active voice in online communities. For MP games the advertising goes on long after the release, and it's the online community which is playing the biggest part in this. Then there's revenue control. More and more MP titles are requiring you to register a handle to play, whereas a hacked SP title doesn't have any registry control. MP games are also more accessible to a wider audience. If they don't know how to play a game they can learn the basics in a few minutes by asking another player. In SP learning the basics typically means reading through a manual or doing an in-game tutorial. The Media of today has crafted our (Western) society into one that is lazy-minded, often preferring the quicker, easier option to that requiring more effort.

MP is more profitable and more accessible, and the Games Industry is very conscious of this and have re-orientated their production lines with this in mind.

 

[Beerdude26]

that's the past, my point is that all modern games are judged on their multiplayer much more so to the point where multiplayer is what sustains sp games like hl2 and not its sp content

Lol what?
Strip every mod for HL2, this includes CS:S, DOD:S (which are considered separate games these days anyway) and Steam.
Now you've got HL2. Add multiplayer to it (HL2DM). I'll let you decide what you like best. Happy gaming.

You see, every game has that basic structure. SP is always going to be a part in any game (Except MMORPG's and the like). MP will almost always come after SP. If it isn't, reviewers will most likely hate the game, unless the sole purpose of that game is to be played online (e.g. BF2). Happened with every game I know of.

 

[$kelet0r]

how can you strip out the mods they are a part of hl2 ?
i think you've missed the boat on this one beerdude

 

[Beerdude26]

CS:S and DOD:S are a vital part of HL2 ?
Last time I checked, they don't have anything to do with HL2 except a shared engine

 

[$kelet0r]

then you are completely missing the point

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Shall we take a few examples:

Quake >>> Quake II >>> Quake III

>>> Doom 3

Unreal >>> Unreal Tournament

There's a quote from Mark Rein (although I can't currently find it) saying that there's far less people playing UT200x on line than actually bought it. In fact, the majority don't play it online.

Warcraft >>> Warcraft III >>> World of Warcraft

MM games are an entirely different kettle of fish

C&C >>> C&C Renegade

C&C Renegade was a singleplayer title. The multiplayer was very much an afterthought

I'm noticing a trend in MP over SP titles. This is because they sustain interest longer, they can be updated (fixed) after release with minimal consequence and they bring in a bigger audience through their global presence. Someone who plays offline on their own will not generate as much interest for a game as someone who plays online and is more likely to have an active voice in online communities. For MP games the advertising goes on long after the release, and it's the online community which is playing the biggest part in this. Then there's revenue control. More and more MP titles are requiring you to register a handle to play, whereas a hacked SP title doesn't have any registry control. MP games are also more accessible to a wider audience. If they don't know how to play a game they can learn the basics in a few minutes by asking another player. In SP learning the basics typically means reading through a manual or doing an in-game tutorial. The Media of today has crafted our (Western) society into one that is lazy-minded, often preferring the quicker, easier option to that requiring more effort.

MP is more profitable and more accessible, and the Games Industry is very conscious of this and have re-orientated their production lines with this in mind.

No, they haven't. Singleplayer dominates game sales, indisputably. Your "average" game buyer doesn't go online. They don't read gaming websites. Online gamers are still very much the minority. Ultimately, this will change. In the long run, multiplayer titles will win out. For now though, SP is king of sales.

 

[Beerdude26]

then you are completely missing the point

Let's see.
-We talk about mods
-You change the subject to multiplayer (not mods, otherwise you would have stated mods for BF2, Q3, UTXXXX,...)
-You say that MP is more important than SP for sales figures
-I do not concur
-Debate

Where am I missing the point

 

[Crispy]

No, they haven't. Singleplayer dominates game sales, indisputably. Your "average" game buyer doesn't go online. They don't read gaming websites. Online gamers are still very much the minority. Ultimately, this will change. In the long run, multiplayer titles will win out. For now though, SP is king of sales.

I never said MP dominates sales at the moment, I said they're more accessible and more profitable than SP titles, and that a lot of companies have orientated their product line towards MP over SP.

SP most definitely dominates sales because there are more SP titles out there.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

And why are there more SP titles out there? Because they sell better than MP titles.

 

[StardogChampion]

I agree that every mod team seems to think they're some pro developer nowadays. Mods take an absolute age to come out, and because of this most of the mods end up folding 6 months in when they had probably created a decent amount of work. They could've released something, small bits at a time and still be going today.

 

[Crispy]

And why are there more SP titles out there? Because they sell better than MP titles.

No, because they existed first and because not everyone has the tech to play online MPs. As more people get broadband quality connections more people will be able to play online multiplayer games. Muliplayer is a relatively new phenomenon (especially online MP), one that only the big games producers can invest in, but the reward is well worth it. Smaller companies will make SP games because they don't need to put extra money into it, but sooner or later MP games will encroach upon their playerbases and those companies may be forced to give in.

MP games hold a captive audience for longer than any one SP game. SP = hours, days, perhaps months. MP = days, weeks, months and years. MP products can also sell other titles to gamers or create awareness of other titles very easily through the server listing software. Adverts are seen at regular intervals and product imagery can become iconic in the gamer's subconscious before a new title has ever been released!

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

Which is exactly what I said.

 

[dys-Fuzzy]

Quake >>> Quake II >>> Quake III

MP is more profitable and more accessible, and the Games Industry is very conscious of this and have re-orientated their production lines with this in mind.

Your argument falls apart when id's project lead on Q3, Tim Willits, says this:

“My biggest failure was Quake 3,” Willits said. “The game offered perfect multiplayer for hardcore players. In fact, they're still playing it. But the more casual gamers, and other people who actually have money, found playing next to impossible.”

Source: http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20050520/cifaldi_pfv.htm

SP drives sales. MP drives long term player numbers.

Hardcore gamers don't buy many games. Casual gamers buy lots of games.

 

[dys-Fuzzy]

Anyway, to get this thread back on topic:

If you go back and look at the first versions of Counter-Strike, Team Fortress, or Day of Defeat, you'll see rough games that focus around a single game play idea.

The times have changed. It's been 10 years since QWTF was first released, 6 years since CS beta1 and 4 years from the intial release of DoD. Gamers who play mods now hold amature projects up to near professional standards. Hell, just read the comments on any hl2.net post showing screenshots or renders of a mod.

Modders have learnt that first impressions count. If you leave your audience with a negitive view of your mod after they check out a WIP beta1 release they will hold this view right through your beta period. Many will comment that "I checked this out ages ago, it was crap, not going to bother".

Sometimes it feels like the MOD community is becoming more and more like the "professional" game community, where products are being approached as something that should take a long time

Nice observation.... because it's utterly true. Mods do take a long time. Chosing to start work on a mod is a massive decission, it's a process which you have to be utterly dedicated to. Modders give up their spare time to create games for free. I don't understand how Erik can be surprised that people who chose to do this are approaching it in the "smartest" way possible. Everyone wants to see the best return on their efforts....

 

[Absinthe]

Modders have learnt that first impressions count. If you leave your audience with a negitive view of your mod after they check out a WIP beta1 release they will hold this view right through your beta period. Many will comment that "I checked this out ages ago, it was crap, not going to bother".

I don't think you have enough faith in the community. Granted some people will be turned off by a first release, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find nobody dedicated and willing to stick with it. Subsequent improvements and a steady realization of long-term goals will draw crowds, including those that initially dropped it.

 

[Cargo Cult]

If you release a SP Mod, whose strongest asset is its story, in a crappy form you'll be making a grave mistake. If you manage to keep the release held back until -say- the first episode is done (Minerva is a striking example) you're going to sustain interest and you won't be disappointing fans. However, Miverva was not a TC Mod.

MINERVA's in fact a very good example of the mode of development being recommended by Erik. It's iterative (the episodic nature means I can learn from my mistakes as I go along, with no 'final' release to aim for), it has very little additional content beyond the maps themselves (note the conspicuous absence of weapons renders, concept art and work-in-progress screenshots), and the 'team' consists of one person and a couple of others testing and working on music.

The marketing is very much word-of-mouth as well. The only announcement I've ever made to news sites so far was about the release of the first map - I don't aim to release any other news or media until the next map is complete. Why? It actually takes a significant amount of time, and I'd much rather be mapping than preparing endless media dumps every time I move the mouse in Hammer. People know about the project already, so I don't need to invest much (if any) effort in publicising it further right now.

Moral of the story: think small, build big over time. Releasing something playable is one overall aim, as is having fun. You don't need a huge team for a mod - get that core gameplay idea off the ground, and then see if it's worth pursuing further...

 

[Crispy]

MINERVA's in fact a very good example of the mode of development being recommended by Erik. It's iterative (the episodic nature means I can learn from my mistakes as I go along, with no 'final' release to aim for), it has very little additional content beyond the maps themselves (note the conspicuous absence of weapons renders, concept art and work-in-progress screenshots), and the 'team' consists of one person and a couple of others testing and working on music.

The marketing is very much word-of-mouth as well. The only announcement I've ever made to news sites so far was about the release of the first map - I don't aim to release any other news or media until the next map is complete. Why? It actually takes a significant amount of time, and I'd much rather be mapping than preparing endless media dumps every time I move the mouse in Hammer. People know about the project already, so I don't need to invest much (if any) effort in publicising it further right now.

Moral of the story: think small, build big over time. Releasing something playable is one overall aim, as is having fun. You don't need a huge team for a mod - get that core gameplay idea off the ground, and then see if it's worth pursuing further...

I agree that bigger Mod teams are a very bad idea. It's best only to hire when you need someone, and to reach that stage you need to have enough material to produce a thorough Design Document. A lot of people (including myself) have been too eager when beginning a Mod. I was definitely guilty of thinking I needed to just go through a checklist (modeller: check, writer: check, mapper: check, etc.) but you should only really be hiring when you have work for the team member, otherwise you're wasting their time and yours.

SP drives sales. MP drives long term player numbers.

Hardcore gamers don't buy many games. Casual gamers buy lots of games.

You're right, sometimes I'm still guilty of seeing the Games Industry through rose-tinted glasses.

Also there's a good article on indy-modding over at the ModDB for individuals interested in making small Mods on their own.

 

[dys-Fuzzy]

Well, another Steam news update with no word about when we'll see an SDK update. I'm sure there's heaps of modders out there who are dying to take Erik's advice and ship and ship and ship.... if only we had an up to date SDK to work with...

HDR for all?

 

[Mr-Fusion]

Erik makes good points.

I wish more mod developers would throw at us whatever the hell they've created to see if it's even worth continuing creation.

 

[Cargo Cult]

I agree that bigger Mod teams are a very bad idea. It's best only to hire when you need someone, and to reach that stage you need to have enough material to produce a thorough Design Document. A lot of people (including myself) have been too eager when beginning a Mod. I was definitely guilty of thinking I needed to just go through a checklist (modeller: check, writer: check, mapper: check, etc.) but you should only really be hiring when you have work for the team member, otherwise you're wasting their time and yours.

... Except you have to remember that technically, you're not hiring anyone. People seem to take organising a team far too seriously, with job applications, interviews and so on.

Ideally, you should be able to get an initial version of a mod released with just a core group of people doing the necessary work - in MINERVA's case, that core 'group' is, erm, just me! You really don't want to be in the situation where if one modeller, texture artist or programmer leaves the entire mod will die - instead of trying to recruit external people to build your vision, you should be thinking about what you can do by yourself.

If it involves learning new things, then so be it - if you need a programmer, start learning C++ yourself, for example. As before, the aim is to think small, build big. Know what you can do, and use that to your advantage... ;-)

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

I agree 100%.

 

[Angry Lawyer]

Cargo Cult is definately a man to listen to.

-Angry Lawyer

 

[Crispy]

... Except you have to remember that technically, you're not hiring anyone. People seem to take organising a team far too seriously, with job applications, interviews and so on.

Ideally, you should be able to get an initial version of a mod released with just a core group of people doing the necessary work - in MINERVA's case, that core 'group' is, erm, just me! You really don't want to be in the situation where if one modeller, texture artist or programmer leaves the entire mod will die - instead of trying to recruit external people to build your vision, you should be thinking about what you can do by yourself.

If it involves learning new things, then so be it - if you need a programmer, start learning C++ yourself, for example. As before, the aim is to think small, build big. Know what you can do, and use that to your advantage... ;-)

We're talking about two different things here.

I'm talking about TC Mods (more specifically SP Mods) which inherently involve a lot of work and a dedicated team. Hence you're going to 'hire' or secure dedicated members for a team. TC (SP) Mods have a lot riding on the unique environment, to keep this style coherent it's better to not have to bring in new people to do odd jobs as it wastes time briefing them on the central themes.

Minerva is not a TC Mod. It's smaller scale, and only needs full-time dedication on the mapping and story side. If you did need to create new assets such as models and textures you would be able to 'contract' someone to do a one-off project and it wouldn't halt progres of the Mod.

However, in the case of the TC Mod every team depends on the game development of the team before them.

Story => Concept => Coding            --\
                 => 3D Art => 2D Art  --/ Alpha => Beta => Release

The process begins with an idea which leads to the story (however integral to the gameplay) and onto the concept. The concept is both art and gameplay. The gameplay concept is given to the Coding team, the artwork to the Artists. The product of these teams work is put together to get an alpha test running (although feasibly this could be done using prefabricated 3D/2D Art, depending on the game type). We all know how the rest goes...

[Edit] I think I just went round in circles there. What I will say is that the Concept artists are of utmost importance. You do need to invest in them if your TC Mod will be big on environment.

I suppose what this boils down to is that Modding in general is made up of lots of different styles. Mods no longer follow the same rules as eachother because they're so different, so it disappoints me somewhat to see advice like Erik Johnson's used as some sort of universal guideline. Yes they are 'words of wisdom' but they are no means universally applicable to the world of Modding. I think we need some clarity (or rather: degeneralisation) on this point.

 

[Pi Mu Rho]

concept artists are a luxury rather than a necessity.

 

[ríomhaire]

Of course there are exceptions to the rules

 

[dissimulated]

Ports != Mods