Fallout New Vegas debut trailer

[Paulaner]

you go next to character, he greets you.
he looks forward, his head/eyes don't move.
idle animation, and there's like 4-5 gestures (blended) in the entire game.
his mouth, and eyelids move when he's talking.

they also act like they're going to stab you from behind all the times, really weird movement/bone rules too.

NPCs are the only weak point in FO3's engine, imo. Yes, they are like plastic dolls. Totally lifeless. But sceneries and maps are awesome. When I first exited Vault 101, the wasteland left me breathless.

 

[Tagaziel]

I know there is Fallout wiki but are there any Fallout books?

Fallout 1 Manual (still one of the best manuals ever).

NPCs are the only weak point in FO3's engine, imo. Yes, they are like plastic dolls. Totally lifeless. But sceneries and maps are awesome. When I first exited Vault 101, the wasteland left me breathless.

Yeah, the lack of environmental shadows really made the game ultra-realistic.

 

[Barnz]

Interplay's manuals have always been great. I love Redneck Rampage's manual.

I still can't believe I wasted 200 hours in F3, and its addons. Come to think of it, there isn't actually much to see in the world. It's all same areas.

Yeah, the lack of environmental shadows really made the game ultra-realistic.

never noticed the lack of them. I think they needed to stop putting bump map on everything. I mean everything - even tiny props have bump map on their faces. It's a waste of resources.

 

[DEATHMASTER]

NPCs are the only weak point in FO3's engine, imo. Yes, they are like plastic dolls. Totally lifeless. But sceneries and maps are awesome. When I first exited Vault 101, the wasteland left me breathless.

I pretty much agree, if they had simply made their movements and combat more realistic and less bugged up, it'd be perfect for me.

 

[Paulaner]

Yeah, the lack of environmental shadows really made the game ultra-realistic.

The lack of them never annoyed me. In my eyes, the graphics in FO3 were stunning. But it's not a purely technical question: it was the overall feeling of loneliness, devastation, emptiness. Those sceneries are exactly what I would expect from a nuclear war. I remember exploring Springvale school with fear and uneasiness. A few games have given me those feelings. And listening to president Eden propaganda on the pip boy added to the whole alienating experience.
From this point of view, Fallout 3 is a wonderful adventure. I really don't care about environmental shadows.

 

[Tagaziel]

The lack of them never annoyed me. In my eyes, the graphics in FO3 were stunning. But it's not a purely technical question: it was the overall feeling of loneliness, devastation, emptiness. Those sceneries are exactly what I would expect from a nuclear war. I remember exploring Springvale school with fear and uneasiness. A few games have given me those feelings. And listening to president Eden propaganda on the pip boy added to the whole alienating experience.
From this point of view, Fallout 3 is a wonderful adventure. I really don't care about environmental shadows.

I agree, the devastated locales and downtown DC were great. However, the lack of environmental shadows annoyed me, as the entire experience felt flat. Compare Cryostasis or Episode 1's gameplay to Fallout 3's and you'll notice just how much of an impact properly done shadows have.

 

[Paulaner]

Compare Cryostasis or Episode 1's gameplay to Fallout 3's and you'll notice just how much of an impact properly done shadows have.

Yes, I see, but Cryostasis and Episode 1 are mostly indoor games, while Fallout 3 shines in depicting the wasteland, with buildings, collapsed bridges, antennas and houses clearly visible in the distance. In my opinion, FO3 requires much more processing power.

 

[Tagaziel]

Yes, I see, but Cryostasis and Episode 1 are mostly indoor games, while Fallout 3 shines in depicting the wasteland, with buildings, collapsed bridges, antennas and houses clearly visible in the distance. In my opinion, FO3 requires much more processing power.

Distance doesn't need environmental shadows, so the point is moot. I'm pointing out that indoor environments and DC areas suffer from lack of environmental shadows because they feel flat. Compare, hell, Half-Life 2's riot levels with Fallout 3's downtown DC areas. Similiar scale, yet HL2 feels better ecause it has shadows.

Fun fact: Half-Life 2 at full settings with lighting and shadows performs better than Fallout 3 on similiar settings. Hell, STALKER: Shadow of Chernobyl and Clear Sky perform better and look better than Fallout 3 and they still have Shadows.

STALKER is a better example than HL2 and Cryos, actually. Imagine going through X18 and X16 with no environmental shadows.

Now, imagine just how much richer would Fallout 3 feel if the Dunwich building or any other dungeon had proper environmental shadows.

 

[Warbie]

I prefered Fallout's look to Stalker's, even without shadows. There was something grainy about Stalker that didn't look right. It is possible that Stalker's god awful combat and clunky gameplay has blinded me from anything it did do well, however.

 

[Paulaner]

Fun fact: Half-Life 2 at full settings with lighting and shadows performs better than Fallout 3 on similiar settings. Hell, STALKER: Shadow of Chernobyl and Clear Sky perform better and look better than Fallout 3 and they still have Shadows.

We are entering a subjective matter, so what follows is my personal opinion. Half-Life 2, even Episode 2, looks good but Fallout 3 is in another league. When depicting outdoor sceneries, Source engine shows its limits: Ep2 is static, distant things are like a cardboard background, while Fallout 3 feels like a richer, more detailed living world. Also, textures and models in Ep2 are much more simple and basic. (exception: the npcs)
As for the STALKER games, yes, they are gorgeous. Maybe the engine is better. I still like Fallout 3 graphics more, but this is personal.

 

[Tagaziel]

[..] Stalker [..] god awful combat[..]

Does not compute.

Gunplay in STALKER is one of the greatest and most realistic gameplays in gaming history. Sure, hit locations need tweaking (OL2.2 are optimal for me), but once you do that, the combat shines as the AI is really good.

We are entering a subjective matter, so what follows is my personal opinion. Half-Life 2, even Episode 2, looks good but Fallout 3 is in another league. When depicting outdoor sceneries, Source engine shows its limits: Ep2 is static, distant things are like a cardboard background, while Fallout 3 feels like a richer, more detailed living world. Also, textures and models in Ep2 are much more simple and basic. (exception: the npcs)
As for the STALKER games, yes, they are gorgeous. Maybe the engine is better. I still like Fallout 3 graphics more, but this is personal.

But, objectively speaking, STALKER's engine is superior, because it has dynamic lighting and shadows.

 

[Warbie]

Gunplay in STALKER is one of the greatest and most realistic gameplays in gaming history

We'll never, ever agree on this. When I think of derivative and clunky fps action, Stalker pops into my mind every time. Best we drop this before all hell breaks loose!

 

[Paulaner]

But, objectively speaking, STALKER's engine is superior, because it has dynamic lighting and shadows.

I can agree on this, although I still think that the overall quality of a graphic engine is a matter of "look and feel". That is, if we could import the whole Fallout 3 in STALKER, what kind of look and feel would we have? A more efficient engine doesn't necessarily means a better looking game. Anyway, I think that FO3's engine could use some optimization.

 

[Kyorisu]

Gamebryo is a pile of crap. The sad part for FO3 is Gamebryo can do all kinds of fancy shadow work but that'd just drop the performance to non existent levels.

 

[Mirage]

Apparently New Vegas is "wittier" than Fallout 3:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=234110

While I can get over a lack of good story in games, it's nice to know that if it is going to be there, it might as well be somewhat interesting.

 

[hot564231]

Apparently New Vegas is "wittier" than Fallout 3:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=234110

While I can get over a lack of good story in games, it's nice to know that if it is going to be there, it might as well be somewhat interesting.

I'll believe it when i see it.

 

[Paulaner]

Apparently New Vegas is "wittier" than Fallout 3:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=234110

While I can get over a lack of good story in games, it's nice to know that if it is going to be there, it might as well be somewhat interesting.

Good news indeed. Fallout 3 + VATS + Obsidian at the helm = win.

 

[Krynn72]

You're not doing it right. I'm not saying they haven't improved anything. Really, I have no idea, I haven't tried Fallout 3. I'm just saying, there are hundreds of options for Oblivion face gen, and you can change [what seems to be nearly] anything from a wide range of values. You can definitely change the shape of the face.

I had some pretty awesome characters, but I think they were lost in a format. I thought I saved them, but it looks like Oblivion has 2 different locations in My Documents where it stores information. Anyway, I can't find my characters.

So, I've only got one character since I reinstalled it a few weeks ago. http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8912/ss4h.jpg

Roughly based on: Aika from Skies of Arcadia. http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/eternal-arcadia/art-02aika.jpg

I liked my old characters better, but anyway.

Dude, the character models in oblivion were awful, and if you really think they look that great then jeez, i have no respect for your artistic taste. Not that I had much after seeing you replacing textures with 4k noisy-as-f*ck textures in the screenshot thread... but still. The characters in Oblivion were fuuuuuuugly.

I'll believe it when i see it.

Have you seen Obsidian's other games? Their plotlines and writing are leagues above what Bethesda does, and most other developers for that matter.

 

[VirusType2]

Dude, the character models in oblivion were awful, and if you really think they look that great then jeez, i have no respect for your artistic taste. Not that I had much after seeing you replacing textures with 4k noisy-as-f*ck textures in the screenshot thread... but still. The characters in Oblivion were fuuuuuuugly.

Oh, OK, Krynn. I like how you change your argument. First, it's face-gen - "the faces are fuuugly", now you are countering by saying the character models are "fuuuugly" and putting words in my mouth. I see you quoted the wrong post from me so as to hide that.

Rendered 3D = 2D, so its not really weird at all. And I thought Bethesda didn't use Facegen for FO3? If they did, then damn, facegen improved a lot since Oblivion, because it was fuuuuugly back then.

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3103371&postcount=106
See anything about character models there?

The characters in Oblivion were fuuuuuuugly.

OK, then you changed your argument to character models (their bodies)

Nowhere did I say anything about 'character models' being good. I don't necessarily think they are bad, regardless I have replaced the character models with mods and I feel they are improved tremendously.

I'm personally not overly obsessed with character models. I suppose you might be since you are a character modeler?

There is also at least 1 mod that will replace nearly all of the faces in the game with "improved ones", and dozens that change the character models and textures.

Anyway, if you are just using different terminology now by mistake - 'character models' instead of 'face-gen', I already stated that the faces that Bethesda created were probably rushed since they had to create thousands of them. So, no, I did not say that I think the Oblivion NPC faces were great. I think the face gen utility (character creation menu) is great, but you only get out of it what you put into it. Here's what I said, actually:

The facegen in Oblivion is amazing. Man I could **** with that all day, like it's the game itself. It's just you could spend hours on one face, and clearly they did not have the time to do that for thousands of characters.

They also could have used better face (and other facial feature) textures. Maybe that's what they did for Fallout 3. (I don't know). Not just better ones, but they could also have used higher res face textures in Oblivion, but the game was demanding enough as it was, in 2006.

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3103417&postcount=113

Not that I had much after seeing you replacing textures with 4k noisy-as-f*ck textures in the screenshot thread... but still.

Wow - full of shit much? It's not a matter of taste, it's just 4 times better.

Let's compare.

Default Oblivion Textures:

The 4x Textures I'm using:

Same compression, same tree, same location, same time of day.

Artistic taste? More like, are you blind? Dog's have poor vision. Maybe if you could smell the textures.

 

[CR0M]

mmmm. smells like honeysuckle. That looks fantastic.

I wish I had never installed Oblivion but saved it until now, downloaded all the great mods, sat back and enjoyed.

 

[Stigmata]

You're not doing it right. I'm not saying they haven't improved anything. Really, I have no idea, I haven't tried Fallout 3. I'm just saying, there are hundreds of options for Oblivion face gen, and you can change [what seems to be nearly] anything from a wide range of values. You can definitely change the shape of the face.

I had some pretty awesome characters, but I think they were lost in a format. I thought I saved them, but it looks like Oblivion has 2 different locations in My Documents where it stores information. Anyway, I can't find my characters.

So, I've only got one character since I reinstalled it a few weeks ago. http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8912/ss4h.jpg

Roughly based on: Aika from Skies of Arcadia. http://www.rpgfan.com/pics/eternal-arcadia/art-02aika.jpg

I liked my old characters better, but anyway.

Key term being "roughly"? Her whole face looks swollen. I'm not saying the face creator lacks options, or sliders, or whatever you want to call them, I'm saying that the way it actually manipulates the polygons almost always results in a poofy disgusting face. Occasionally you will get a face that looks the way it should, but only if you're making one of those lizard characters.

[edit] Also those textures look great up-close, but I can't imagine a dense thicket of it looking like anything but pixel noise from further than 20 feet away.

 

[Tollbooth Willie]

I'll believe it when i see it.

Not too hard to believe considering nothing in Fallout 3 was really witty.

 

[Krynn72]

Oh, OK, Krynn. I like how you change your argument. First, it's face-gen - "the faces are fuuugly", now you are countering by saying the character models are "fuuuugly" and putting words in my mouth. I see you quoted the wrong post from me so as to hide that.

I didn't say you thought the entire models were ugly. I'M the one saying the character models were ugly, and facegen was a major part of it. Sorry if you couldn't make that connection.

There is also at least 1 mod that will replace nearly all of the faces in the game with "improved ones", and dozens that change the character models and textures.

Since when were we talking about mod content? If anything, that proves my point, that the characters were horrible in Oblivion and people made major efforts to fix them.

Anyway, if you are just using different terminology now by mistake - 'character models' instead of 'face-gen', I already stated that the faces that Bethesda created were probably rushed since they had to create thousands of them. So, no, I did not say that I think the Oblivion NPC faces were great. I think the face gen utility (character creation menu) is great, but you only get out of it what you put into it. Here's what I said, actually:

I'm not arguing the practical implications of implementing facegen, im simply saying it made ugly, unrealistic faces. No matter how much you tweak the attributes, facegen outputs an unrealistic and ugly face.

Wow - full of shit much? It's not a matter of taste, it's just 4 times better.

Let's compare.


Same compression, same tree, same location, same time of day.

Artistic taste? More like, are you blind? Dog's have poor vision. Maybe if you could smell the textures.

I'm sorry, but you're full of shit this time. If you honestly believe that quadrupling the resolution make an asset quadruple the quality... that doesnt even make a god damn lick of sense. You have no idea about what you're talking about, because your screenshots in the screenshot thread show a serious lack of comprehension in things like texture density, human visual attention, or artistic cohesion. You just slap a 4k photograph on there an think its better because you can see veins in the leaves. Get the hell outta here.

 

[Acepilotf14]

There is someone who actually likes the models in Oblivion?

They all looked like tall 14-year olds.

 

[VirusType2]

There is someone who actually likes the models in Oblivion?

They all looked like tall 14-year olds.

Is that a trick question?

I didn't say you thought the entire models were ugly. I'M the one saying the character models were ugly, and facegen was a major part of it. Sorry if you couldn't make that connection.

You quoted me talking about how I like the facegen, and then you said "you're crazy and stupid and have no taste - the bodies are fffffffuuuuuugly".

That didn't even make any sense. I'm sorry that you couldn't make a connection- at least one that humans can understand.

If you don't like the facegen - fine, man! If you'd rather every character was hand made by the developer, then fine! Hell, I can understand that. I don't even disagree that other games - Mass Effect 2 for example, look much better.

When it comes to Oblivion, I probably wouldn't even play that game if I could only choose from a few preset faces, and every god damn person looked the same.

I guess what we had for Oblivion was a bunch of minimum wage monkeys making the faces, because anyone can come up with someshit with facegen's console friendly control.

Where in Mass Effect 2, they are carefully modeled by a professional. I don't know how many NPCs are in ME2, but probably half of them have helmets covering their face, or all the aliens look the same, or something. Just guessing. They sure as hell didn't pay a professional modeler to make thousands of faces.

As far as I know, Bethesda's Gamebryo face-gen menu is the best that players have ever been able to use. Uh.. I can't even think of any other game engines that let you have this kind of control. So, there's literally no comparison there for players who want to create their own unique faces. In addition, you can modify every NPC right from the TES Construction Set in seconds, for people who like to make their own content, characters, and quests.

I'm not arguing the practical implications of implementing facegen, im simply saying it made ugly, unrealistic faces. No matter how much you tweak the attributes, facegen outputs an unrealistic and ugly face.

OK, in my opinion, that's not true, so that's why we are arguing. Yes there's plenty of room for improvement, but that goes for every element from every video game ever made.

Generally, I'm bashing their face in, in some dark ass dungeon. Their face takes up about 1" of the screen, and they are dead in moments, so I don't care if their face looks like the lead character from ME2 and has hemoglobin maps, realistic sweat particles, and 3D modeled beard stubble.

Back to Gamebryo, if you get the face model right, the only time a larger texture makes a difference is when it is zoomed in close enough. (and by default Oblivion loved to zoom in way too close on faces)

I'm sorry, but you're full of shit this time. If you honestly believe that quadrupling the resolution make an asset quadruple the quality... that doesnt even make a god damn lick of sense. You have no idea about what you're talking about, because your screenshots in the screenshot thread show a serious lack of comprehension in things like texture density, human visual attention, or artistic cohesion. You just slap a 4k photograph on there an think its better because you can see veins in the leaves. Get the hell outta here.

Hahahahaaaa Oh, man. It's not 4k 4000, 4kb - whatever. They are 4x larger than default. Four times. A multiple. So if the default little flowers were 56x56, then they'd be 4 times that. NOT "4k" - 4096x4096 for a flower bud or leaf. Are you kidding?

I honestly want to see your low resolution, no normal map, no shader map, pixelated projects that would put this stuff to shame.

If it's true that you can produce better with less, please show me your Crysis maxed graphics with 256x256 detail maps and no normals. It's not even ****ing possible.

Because what, the texture is near photo-realistic, then it lacks a human touch? We are talking about realistic dirt, brick and leaves here. Does photo-realism lack a human touch for you or someshit? WTF, Krynn.

I've actually never heard anyone in the world argue that low resolution textures looked better, so you'll have to forgive me for calling you full of shit.

Since when were we talking about mod content? If anything, that proves my point, that the characters were horrible in Oblivion and people made major efforts to fix them.

I brought up mods because it was something I can relate to. Shit, I've been modding the Gamebryo engine since it was Morrowind.

I was simply bored and considering the ways that they could have improved it by improving the textures in Fallout. Whether artistically, or by texture resolution, or both. Someone else suggested that the polygons might be better.

They are still making mods for Morrowind and Half-Life, and even older games. So what you are saying that if they were any good nobody would mod for it? Games looked like total shit compared to games that came out in 2010?

Man, you suck - as a person, I mean. I prefer 1979 Asteriods to half the shit you play, but I don't sit there and tell you you have horrible taste and no artistic talent, photographed textures do not equal better- whatever the **** you said. Go to an art museum. You're a ****ing cock, Krynn. My favorite color is better than yours.

 

[Krynn72]

Oh my god Virus, you seriously want to quote war me with this?

You quoted me talking about how I like the facegen, and then you said "you're crazy and stupid and have no taste - the bodies are fffffffuuuuuugly".

What the hell is broken in your head that makes you not understand this. I'm saying, I AM SAYING, the CHARACTERS are fugly. AND FACEGEN IS PART OF THE REASON. ONE OF THE MAIN ONES. I'm not saying the bodies are fuuuugly because of facegen you twit. I'm saying they are all around bad looking, including their heads which were done via facegen.

If you don't like the facegen - fine, man! If you'd rather every character was hand made by the developer, then fine! Hell, I can understand that. I don't even disagree that other games - Mass Effect 2 for example, look much better.

Good.

When it comes to Oblivion, I probably wouldn't even play that game if I could only choose from a few preset faces, and every god damn person looked the same.

Oh piss off. You're full of shit if you believe that. There have been plenty of games with tons of hand made models that were repeated in their use and they look much better than Oblivion's characters did. I would rather see 1 out of 50 characters repeated so long as they look good. Its a case of quality over quantity brosef.

I guess what we had for Oblivion was a bunch of minimum wage monkeys making the faces, because anyone can come up with someshit with facegen's console friendly control.

Most of the NPCs in Oblivion were generated automatically with facegen. I wish we had at least minimum wage monkeys doing them. But alas, we didn't even get that. We got automated bullshit for most of them, and the few real artists there had to match the crappy quality stuff it made so the game looked consistent.

Where in Mass Effect 2, they are carefully modeled by a professional. I don't know how many NPCs are in ME2, but probably half of them have helmets covering their face, or all the aliens look the same, or something. Just guessing. They sure as hell didn't pay a professional modeler to make thousands of faces.

They sure as hell paid several modelers to make hundreds of faces, and paid several top notch artists (not just modelers) to spend weeks and perhaps months on each main character design.

As far as I know, Bethesda's Gamebryo face-gen menu is the best that players have ever been able to use. Uh.. I can't even think of any other game engines that let you have this kind of control. So, there's literally no comparison there for players who want to create their own unique faces. In addition, you can modify every NPC right from the TES Construction Set in seconds, for people who like to make their own content, characters, and quests.

Are you kidding me? There are much better customizable character methods than face gen. Jesus man. Even Demon's Souls had better customization and it didn't look like shit.

OK, in my opinion, that's not true, so that's why we are arguing. Yes there's plenty of room for improvement, but that goes for every element from every video game ever made.

Generally, I'm bashing their face in, in some dark ass dungeon. Their face takes up about 1" of the screen, and they are dead in moments, so I don't care if their face looks like the lead character from ME2 and has hemoglobin maps, realistic sweat particles, and 3D modeled beard stubble.

So why the **** are you arguing with me like this? And how does that help your case in any way? "Oh they hide their ugly models in the dark and make em small so they look great!" What?

Back to Gamebryo, if you get the face model right, the only time a larger texture makes a difference is when it is zoomed in close enough. (and by default Oblivion loved to zoom in way too close on faces)

Not even sure what your point is here? That Oblivion should have used higher res textures? That they shouldn't have zoomed in so close on their ugly faces? That its possible to get a face model right? I agree with the first two, disagree with the last.

Hahahahaaaa Oh, man. It's not 4k 4000, 4kb - whatever. They are 4x larger than default. Four times. A multiple. So if the default little flowers were 56x56, then they'd be 4 times that. NOT "4k" - 4096x4096 for a flower bud or leaf. Are you kidding?

So you were lying when you said this in the screenshots thread?

Yeah, the textures are 2048 x2048 and 4096 x 4096.

http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3097296&postcount=2652

Also, if they were using 56x56 textures, then the artists at Bethesda back then were even worse than I thought.

I honestly want to see your low resolution, no normal map, no shader map, pixelated projects that would put this stuff to shame.

If it's true that you can produce better with less, please show me your Crysis maxed graphics with 256x256 detail maps and no normals. It's not even ****ing possible.

A: I never said not to use other texture maps, now who is the one putting words in someone else's mouth?
B: The **** is a shader map?
C: I'll see if I can post anything from work tomorrow to shut you the **** up. In the meantime, this is a co-worker's stuff. Note how you can see details in the cloth, wrinkles on the face, and etc... EVEN AT 512 and 256 RESOLUTIONS HOLY ****.

http://mattlink3d.com/assets/images/gallery/characters/doomRails/voodooClown_mattlink.jpg
http://mattlink3d.com/assets/images/gallery/characters/doomRails/avgBoy_mattlink.jpg

And its not even like my ability has anything to do with this. Even if I was the shittiest artist around, it wouldnt make my arguments invalid. John Madden is old as **** and can't play football, does that make everything he says commentating wrong? This "Show me you can do better!" response is juvenile.

Because what, the texture is near photo-realistic, then it lacks a human touch? We are talking about realistic dirt, brick and leaves here. Does photo-realism lack a human touch for you or someshit? WTF, Krynn.

This goes back to the texture density and artistic cohesion I mentioned in my last post. Your textures look awful in the game because they don't match the art style of the game, and they completely ruin the texture density of any area you put them in because the other assets are still 64x64. That is irritating to the human eye and draw attention to the fact that shit is fake and ruins the suspension of disbelief when people notice errors like that, even if they don't know exactly whats wrong with it. You apparently lack this awareness.

I've actually never heard anyone in the world argue that low resolution textures looked better, so you'll have to forgive me for calling you full of shit.

Where in all this did I say low res textures look better? I'm saying the high res textures YOU use in OBLIVION are ****ing retarded.

I brought up mods because it was something I can relate to. Shit, I've been modding the Gamebryo engine since it was Morrowind.

Still has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

I was simply bored and considering the ways that they could have improved it by improving the textures in Fallout. Whether artistically, or by texture resolution, or both. Someone else suggested that the polygons might be better.

I... You... WHAT. WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN? The polygons might be better? You clearly are in way over your head because that sounds like some shit my clueless dad would say when making a joke about someone's art. And yes, fallout 3's textures could be improved, no doubt. Taking photographs and slapping them on there at 2k resolutions is NOT how you'd do it though.

They are still making mods for Morrowind and Half-Life, and even older games. So what you are saying that if they were any good nobody would mod for it? Games looked like total shit compared to games that came out in 2010?

Ignoring your last question which makes no sense... those mods people are still making are not just increasing textures. They're legitimate mods that add other shit to the game beyond technical things like textures. Dont be an idiot. And I dare you, I ****ING DARE YOU to bring up fakefactory. PLEASE TELL ME HOW GOOD FAKEFACTORY LOOKS.

Man, you suck - as a person, I mean. I prefer 1979 Asteriods to half the shit you play, but I don't sit there and tell you you have horrible taste and no artistic talent, photographed textures do not equal better- whatever the **** you said. Go to an art museum. You're a ****ing cock, Krynn. My favorite color is better than yours.

Nice try at grabbing the moral high-ground. Especially after saying that I "suck as a person" when I have made no insult to you beyond saying you're full of shit, which in fact was only a response to you saying I was. Just real classy man. And what do you even know about my gaming preference? I bet you don't know shit about what games I like or don't. Doesn't change the fact that you're wrong anyways. Photo textures do not equal better, that is a fact. They can be used to make great textures, but just taking a photo and slapping it on something doesnt make you a good texture artist, and doesn't make the asset look good. Perhaps you should go to an art museum and figure out what art is before you get into another discussion thats so clearly beyond your realm of knowledge.


Also, I really hope you're just taking the piss here and just trying to get me angry (nice job by the way), because I thought you were pretty smart in terms of game knowledge before all this. This has shattered my perception of you entirely.

 

[Ravioli]

TLDR

5char

 

[Krynn72]

Yeah I know, im exhausted. That took me a long time to write.

 

[Ravioli]

Its ok, i didnt read Virus post either. This entire thread is massive TLDR for me.

 

[Paulaner]

This thread is about... New Vegas... right?

 

[Mirage]

Not anymore.

 

[Paulaner]

Not anymore.

Oh, OK. Well... what do you think about Activison classics coming to GOG?

 

[DEATHMASTER]

never.

 

[mastag]

Looks much more like Fallout 1 and 2 in terms of atmosphere.

I didn't even complete Fallout 3(it was effing great, but College just sorta got in the way of gaming around that time), but I'm definitely getting this.

 

[VirusType2]

So you were lying when you said this in the screenshots thread?

I guess I misunderstood what you were asking. If you were asking about this: http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/dev_akm/oblivion/QTP3_official/ba05.gif
(animated before/after image) I think it looks good either way, personally.

They are "up to 4x the size of default".

I was under the impression he used 4096x4096 textures, but I don't know. I just looked it up, and he doesn't say what size they are. It sounds like he used that size for the LODs, but also made a compressed version. http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=oblivionmods.detail&id=2246

Also, if they were using 56x56 textures, then the artists at Bethesda back then were even worse than I thought.

It depends what it is. I was referring to the size of a [theoretical] default flower bud texture when I threw that size out there.

The texture mod I'm using (a reduced version of the one above) tends to use 1024x1024 and 512x1024 for the largest textures. I'm assuming that would make the default size of the textures 512x512 and 256x512.

The **** is a shader map?

A specular map, excuse me.

its not even like my ability has anything to do with this. Even if I was the shittiest artist around, it wouldnt make my arguments invalid. John Madden is old as **** and can't play football, does that make everything he says commentating wrong? This "Show me you can do better!" response is juvenile.

As an artist, how would you like it if I said your artistic ability was horrible and this was over your head? You know? **** you, Krynn. That's what you've been doing since the beginning. You're the one getting all personal, and you're also taking things personally, and I haven't even said shit about you, you ****. I said show me Crysis graphics with small textures. Not possible! Anyway, that discussion is over.

You don't need to be an artist, or master of anything to prefer one style of art or another. All that has done is make you more critical.

This goes back to the texture density and artistic cohesion I mentioned in my last post. Your textures look awful in the game because they don't match the art style of the game, and they completely ruin the texture density of any area you put them in because the other assets are still 64x64. That is irritating to the human eye and draw attention to the fact that shit is fake and ruins the suspension of disbelief when people notice errors like that, even if they don't know exactly whats wrong with it. You apparently lack this awareness.

This is pretty inclusive:

Things retextured:
* Architecture
* Landscape
* Rocks
* Dungeons
* Blood splatters, falling snowflakes, butterflies
* Furniture, and other medium-sized clutter

Things NOT retextured:

* Clothes, armor, weapons, creatures, NPCs
* Foliage, the sky
* Kvatch, the Arena, and the Oblivion realm

And when you go into Oblivion realm, Kvatch, and the Arena - these are instanced, so no, the default assets are not mixed in.

Plenty of creature mods - I've done quite a few textures for the creatures myself, and there are plenty of sky, clothes, weapons, and armor mods. There's also these:

# Improved Doors and Flora (17.0 MB)
# Improved Trees and Flora 1 (19.3 MB)
# Improved Trees and Flora 2 (23.2 MB)
# Improved Signs (57.6 MB)
# Improved Fruits, Vegetables and Meats (21.7 MB)
# Improved Amulets and Rings (5.1 MB)

I showed what the foliage looks like in the previous screenshots. So, that's nearly everything in the game.

I... You... WHAT. WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN? The polygons might be better? You clearly are in way over your head because that sounds like some shit my clueless dad would say when making a joke about someone's art.

You're acting like I actually said this, so you can find something to insult me for. You should go around insulting everyone, since you know more than them about polygons. Oh, wait.

Nice try at grabbing the moral high-ground. Especially after saying that I "suck as a person" when I have made no insult to you beyond saying you're full of shit, which in fact was only a response to you saying I was. Just real classy man.

Riiiiightttttttttt

i have no respect for your artistic taste. Not that I had much after seeing you replacing textures with 4k noisy-as-f*ck textures in the screenshot thread

Nice way to kick things off, asshole.

I'm sorry, but you're full of shit this time. If you honestly believe that quadrupling the resolution make an asset quadruple the quality... that doesnt even make a god damn lick of sense. You have no idea about what you're talking about, because your screenshots in the screenshot thread show a serious lack of comprehension in things like texture density, human visual attention, or artistic cohesion. You just slap a 4k photograph on there an think its better because you can see veins in the leaves. Get the hell outta here.

Did you forget you said all of this?

And yes, fallout 3's textures could be improved, no doubt. Taking photographs and slapping them on there at 2k resolutions is NOT how you'd do it though.

Really? Is that what you think the extent of their work is, or what they did?

Photo textures do not equal better, that is a fact. They can be used to make great textures, but just taking a photo and slapping it on something doesnt make you a good texture artist, and doesn't make the asset look good. Perhaps you should go to an art museum and figure out what art is before you get into another discussion thats so clearly beyond your realm of knowledge.

Did I say photo textures = better? Also, I think I've been giving you too much credit. Does this look like someone took a photograph and just slapped in the game? http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/3928/honeysuckle1365kb.jpg It sounds like someone who knows nothing about video games is explaining how textures are created. Bethesda used real trees and shrubs, and named them accordingly. This made it so that the replacement textures do match, and do fit the game.

Qarl's Texture Pack III

Features:
* Most textures are 4 times the size of the originals. Some, even more. This makes things seem much clearer and sharper in-game.

* A large number of meshes have been altered to take advantage of the game engine's parallax shader.

* Only parts of the mesh which NEED parallaxing have the parallax flag enabled. This removes unwanted artifacts parallaxing can cause around corners.

* Textures which use the parallax shader have been altered at the mipmap level so that things look very 3D from a distance but do not get the soupy artifacts associated with the parallax effect when viewed close-up.

* Advanced normal map techniques used to make landscape textures seem very 3D.

* Landscape color maps and normal maps edited at the mipmap level to reduce the tiling effect in the distance.

Note, I'm using a reduced size version of this mod.

A snip of the cobble stone texture, with memory footprint highlighted
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/2073/anvilcobblestonecropped.jpg

Not just slapping a photograph in the game:
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3201/notslappingaphotograph.jpg

The result:
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/5097/ss17f.jpg

I thought you were pretty smart in terms of game knowledge before all this. This has shattered my perception of you entirely.

Whatever, Krynn. I guess I should care? Maybe I should send you my resume, so that you may approve of me.

mmmm. smells like honeysuckle. That looks fantastic.

See? Some people like it. If you don't like it, save it for someone that cares what you think. lol. <3

Rating: 9.99
149 votes

Here's a screenshot I made, showcasing Bromet's Shivering Isles texture pack:
http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/4589/ss101.jpg

Still think it doesn't match the rest of the game, and lacks cohesion?

 

[Barnz]

I'm sorry, but nobody gives a shit about Oblivion.

 

[Rizzo]

God damn it... Has there been any other posts or videos about Fallout? I can't ****ing SEE BECOUSE OF THESE HUGE WALLS OF TEXT!

 

[VirusType2]

At least they're high resolution walls of text.

 

[Krynn72]

@ Virus: Well, I don't feel like making another huge quote post, so im just going to reply to some things you pointed out without quoting directly, hopefully it will be easy enough to follow.

Firstly, saying I have no respect for your artistic taste is not an insult, even if its inflammatory, and saying you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to those things (texture density, etc.) isn't either. If I say the spark tube is leaky on my transmission when talking to a mechanic, its not an insult when he tells me i have no idea what im talking about. Get offended all you want, but it wasnt just an insult.

Secondly, when i was saying 56x56 was a bad resolution, thats because its not a multiple of two texture size. Its an inefficient texture resolution that is a waste of memory. Textures should only come in multiples of two, 2x2, 4x4, 8x8, 16x16, 32x32, 64x64, etc. 56x56 is not a resolution a professional artist would use. The fact that 56x56 is the size you thought of reflects your understanding of the subject of texture resolutions.

As for you supposedly not saying photographed textures don't mean better textures, I may have been mistaken when I read this confusing sentence of yours:

but I don't sit there and tell you you have horrible taste and no artistic talent, photographed textures do not equal better- whatever the **** you said.

It seemed to me (and still does) that you were bitterly implying that what I said about phototextures not being better was wrong, and that, in fact, they are better. Perhaps you weren't.

To clarify what I mean when I say "slap a photo on and call it a texture," Yes. I do include any alpha painting or photoshop normal map filter you run. That shit takes two seconds to do and doesn't constitute any real effort to adjust the texture to fit within the realm of the art style the game has going for it already. Photos should rarely ever be used as anything more than an overlay or multiply over a hand painted texture. Especially in a game like Oblivion where everything was pretty much handpainted by the texture artists. In a game like Stalker, then yeah maybe you could get away with using a photo as a BASE texture for you to paint over. But even then, to get your normal map and spec map to be correct, which your cobblestone example isn't, you need to hand paint a depth map and spec map. That cobblestone isnt correctly normal mapped because the source (your photograph) wasn't designed to tell your nvidia photoshop plugin which areas were raised and which were inset. A hand painted depth map would (black areas would be inset, white areas would be protruding, or vice versa depending on how the engine is written). As it stands with your cobblestone, the normal map thinks everything with a shadow is actually a dip in the geometry, and everything with a highlight is an extrusion. That may be enough to fool the untrained eye, but shit like that doesnt fly in the professional world.

As for the Bromet's texture thing, yes, I think it looks bad and lacks cohesion. Take a look at that barrel, or at the props on the table, the texture density is so god damn strewn about it looks awful. Not that it would help if it was, because the normal mapping is over the top to the point where everything that has it looks disgusting and noisy.

Anyways, thats enough of us ruining this thread. If you want to continue this debate, lets take it to PM.

@ Rizzo: Ha! Suck on wall of text! And No, I haven't seen any news/videos on New Vegas.

 

[bodhi]

tidbits from the upcoming playstation magazine feature. some of it we already knew, but theres slightly more detail given than before.

* It shows the command wheel for followers, with 8 commands: toggle melee/ranged, open inventory, toggle stay close/keep distance, back up, toggle aggressive/passive AI, use stimpack, toggle wait here/follow me, return to normal dialogue.
* Scripting is wittier, characters more distinct. Example from vigour test word association: mother-human shield.
* Opening inventory consists of a kit from the doc, adapted to your starting stats (like Fallout 1).
* The Nevada area is less affected by the nuclear war, so it has plant life, relatively unspoiled houses, and in visual presentation has saturated colours and a bright sky.
* There's a tutorial (led by a character named Sunny who looks a lot like Moira Brown), but unlike Fallout 3, it's optional, so you can hit the open game in 5 minutes from starting.
* NCR and Caesar's Legion are the confirmed faction, article assumes Brotherhood of Steel will be in but they weren't mentioned in the presentation.
* "In New Vegas it's all about the player examining the ideologies of the various groups that are controlling the area and supporting one over the others," explains Sawyer. "Each of the ideologies will have something good that you can relate to, but will also have massive flaws."
* When asked about PS3's Fallout 3 being inferior to the others and if New Vegas will do better, Obsidian devs make no promises but indicate it was a learning process and they're working with all 3 platforms and all have problems.
* The New Vegas strip is still in construction but will have gambling, variety shows and concerts.
* Electrical power is key in the faction struggle.
* Radiation is still a problem, there's a nuclear test site to explore north of New Vegas.
* The soundtrack will blend "Rat Pack style tunes with more Western numbers".
* New Vegas is not just free-roaming gameplay attached to a linear main story, but it weaves decision into the gameworld and gives you greater power to influence things than Fallout 3 did.
* On top of adding back in geckos, New Vegas has a whole new type of animal: mutated mountain rams called Big Horners.
* Sawyer says that Fallout: New Vegas is to Fallout 3 what Vice City is to Grand Theft Auto III

got this from Fallout Wiki - http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Ausir/Fallout:_New_Vegas_details_from_PlayStation_Magazine

edit: also

In an exclusive first look at Fallout New Vegas, CVG sister mag PSM3 reveals that developer Obsidian has taken dialogue and scripting up a notch in the sequel to Fallout 3.

lead producer of Fallout New Vegas, Larry Liberty said: "We had to modify the dialogue engine from Fallout 3 to include the types of dialogue and options that we wanted.

"We want real, memorable characters. I think it helps you to remember parts of the world you'd otherwise forget."

As part of its world-exclusive cover feature, PSM3 played an extensive demo of New Vegas. The mag reported that it was 'apparent that Obsidian are much more comfortable behind the keyboard than the team that made Fallout 3 and, before that, Oblivion. The scripting is wittier, the characters more distinct.'